Blue Mage In Neo Nyzul

This is the post I've been talking about. This post was in response my post concerning Sch, Blu, and haste to Peldin that you added after mine concerning the current situation for NNI.

Your SCH refers to a sch main to me which would give reason for sch to cast the spell "Haste" which makes me think you're talking about Embrava groups now, which is what I was talking about with Peldin.

Blu/sch and saying SCH in the quoted post correlate to the same topics makes no logical sense if you're going to say that you're referring to the same thing in your post embrava group.

Current situation favors 2 SCH's and 1 BLU plus 3 Pure DD's for the following.

WoP on stupid leader / boss floors
Diffusion Haste (start off with spell haste without having to wait on SCH's to buff four DD's).
Requiescat (PDT Flan, various NM's with stupid resistances)
Variable damage on DC/EP monsters (Slash / Piercing / Blunt)
AoE Damage for same DC/EP monsters (WoR / BT / ET)
Light / Dark AoE Sleep (lamps or leader / spec with adds)
Self Healing and supporting the other DD who's running with you (Fruit / Embrace)

That's a pretty substantial list of things to get for the loss of 1 DD slot, not to mention that BLU/WAR's with DWIII and TA actually do have high melee / WS damage.

Post Embrava Nerf (assuming SE doesn't listen to anyone). Mostly same situation.
SCH + BRD
DD x 3 + BLU/WAR

The SCH does Perpet Haste (any SCH who does haste without Perpet and +2 gloves is stupid). That's a 7:30 Haste spell on three DD's. Start the cycle approx 4~5min after the BLU does Diff + Wail. SCH is also responsible for -na's and most healing duties. The BRD will be doing ~some~ healing but don't expect much (BRD/SCH cure III is decent).

BRD will be doing TN double March's at the start, this should happen at the same time the BLU is doing Diff Haste and the SCH is putting up a few aoe buffs. Marcoto will be used on the first March. When it wears the BRD will have to call it and next floor reapply then the old fashioned way, no other way around this, time is to be the same as when the SCH reapply s buffs. When they wear, TN should be back up so you'll get super buffed again. Have the BLU do another Diff Wail to guarantee haste for awhile.

Really just requires coordination between the support buffs to get the most out of it. Bringing along an army of BLU's is very stupid, you'll need the heavy DD's for boss's and the NM's on later floors.

I agree with Afania, this is a very bad idea. Cor has access to the same melee gear as all other light dds, put on two good daggers and go with Last Stand for ws, saving wf and qd for physical resistant mobs.

Everything I'm talking about in any of my posts is talking about post nerf. I'm comparing 4BLU & 2Support vs SCH, BRD, 4 DD.

In my limited experience and from what I've seen of damage, BLU/WAR can DD Bosses and NMs very well itself. With proper buffs and DEF down usage CDC is a fairly powerful WS in its own right, and CA/Efflux with QC is high powered as well.

I'm saying that there isn't a DD in the game that can beat BLU/WAR on typical NNI runs by a large enough margin for it to make a significant difference. And no, just parsing isn't a viable means of establishing the fact. Parsing is skewed by too many factors in NNI to be a viable measure.

People forget about the fact NNI is going to be far more MP intensive post nerf as well. That happens when you lose 72 hp a tick HP. BLU's require virtually no outside healing in comparison, thanks to how broken sudden lunge is, shadows, and a quick, efficient healing spell. Using the BLU method we can drop the now completely useless SCH for an additional DD or in the case I'm making for my personal group, another support for getting around faster.

And as for the COR argument:

Mage sub with -na spells >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Healing waltz.

That's in terms of speed, which is the most important part of -na spells.

I picked COR for the ability to stay out of range, throw out a Shot/WF kill, use Bolters and miscellaneous rolls, while providing NA spells. If I just wanted a half-assed DD that could -na spell, I'd have brought another BLU/SCH as it could do both better and then some.


I'm not saying it's the absolute best set up in the game. I'm saying it works, it works well, and I have access to it.

Shooting is not efficient at all. If you plan to do that with /mage you're better off with another job cause the rolls don't make up for such a loss of damage.

My question is how terrible is your COR that they can't occasionally manage to get and sit on 100tp with your gun.

I mean I'm sure SCH or BRD could contribute more damage by whipping out their badass melee gear. Instead most just focus on what they were invited for since damage isn't the problem.

The problem is crap like Flans, debuffs slowing you down, and cutting time off lamp floors.


People are making a big deal out of a throwaway slot.

Why bother asking for suggestions when you refuse the answers?

Loss of what damage? In his post-embrava group, the COR is filling a support slot, which is 0 damage.
His group is built on the premise that the DD, being 4 BLU, can be self-sufficient in terms of sustaining their own hp. With that in mind, the most important role his support can do is -na/erase. COR/WHM fills that -na/erase requirement while also providing roll buffs and can throw out some extra damage.

However, to say the SCH is completely useless for that setup is pretty ignorant. Regen5 alone will cut down on Magic Fruit casts by a large amount which means more time spent killing. A dedicated healer on boss floors will also speed up kills because you can't sudden lunge them. BRD/WHM + COR/WHM *might* be able to keep up the heals for that, but I'm not sure I'd want to risk it, especially if you get Mrs. I-petrify-everyone-and-ranged-attack-for-400+). Accession + na will save time rather than having the brd/whm and cor/whm single targeting -na for each DD, especially if it coincides with having to re-roll or re-sing.

I'm not going to go in to other advantages of SCH, but suffice it to say it will still be far from useless even with 4 BLU/WAR. It will be LESS useful than if you were to go with jobs that can't self-sustain, but those jobs also put out more damage than BLU/WAR.

And that lack of damage starts adding up when you are talking about replacing three DD with BLU/WAR that have to spend time/mana healing themselves.

You still lost embrava and rolls aren't the same(often you'll have only 1 since you can't do them back to back and it's better to reroll on next floor with everyone gathered). If your bring a cor it better do something useful than just give you na, otherwise might as well bring something else to do it and work with a better setup. Cor takes forever to shoot and since you're supposed to see mobs flop in seconds you're lucky if you land 2 bullets on 1 floor.

The confusion in the previous page comes from my interjection in to the argument between Brain and Gimp.
Gimp was supporting his argument by making the statement that SCH's have a stronger haste and/or that they can hastega. I wanted to correct him because Accession cannot be used with Haste, Animating Wail and Haste have the exact same potency, and Animating Wail can be cast faster. His counter argument was that I listed the base cast times without fast cast gear. Being a stupid counter argument, and realizing he didn't know what he was talking about when it came to SCH, I stopped responding.

It was a side argument unrelated to the one between Brain/Gimp. The confusion came when Gimp responded to both Brain and I in the same post without being clear on who he was addressing (this could have been alleviated by using quotes btw).

Being as this thread is in the BLU forums though, I would prefer we keep the discussion centered around BLU's role in NINI and discuss party setups in the Assault forum. It's annoying to read arguments about what COR can do in a BLU forum, and it's annoying to read misinformation about other jobs as well.

In the hopes to keep this thread on topic, I would like to talk about the use of unstacked nukes.

Heavy Strike - do you guys think it lands consistently enough to warrant use? I'd really like to know what my hit rate is with it in NI (maybe I should download a parser). I know it does incredible damage for the mp cost, but my melee damage is pretty substantial, and I feel that even just one miss out of 4 would not warrant the spell cutting out my melee damage.

Delta Thrust - even though it's efficient, I have a hard time using this as well because I feel it just doesn't do enough damage. By the time I cast it, I feel my auto hits would have done almost just as much and I would be closer to the next CDC if I had just melee'd.

Quad Continuum - this spell I find to do solid damage every time. Even though it's not efficient, I've been using it quite often.

Amorphic Spikes - I haven't even set this spell, but for those of you that do, do you ever use it outside of darkness SC? How are the numbers?

Keep in mind, I'm referring to each one of these for their UNSTACKED usefulness. Obviously a CA or Efflux spell is going to warrant cutting in to melee hits, but unstacked, the only one I like is QC... and MAYBE Heavy Strike.

Just responded to what was posted, wasn't trying to hijack or anything..

Heavy Strike - Not missing enough on EP/DC mobs, it's fine

Delta Thrust - Delta thrust does fine damage, especially for the MP cost. Besides that the plague is still useful in nyzul

Quad Continuum - SC only or when MP permits. This isn't something you should be spamming with its MP cost; if you're on a floor with Drainkissable mobs go for it, or if you're over around 20~30% MP.

Amorphic Spikes - SC only


On most floors your main damage should be coming from Benthic Typhoon, Empty Thrash, and Whirl of Rage really. Should have no issues pulling a room full of mobs and AoEing them down, and if they survive the initial 3 spells just sleep them and pick them off as you wait for recasts.

Blu is a great addition, but successful nni groups are diverse and adaptable. No amount of embrava nerf is going to make blu ideal for every mob/situation.

Would disagree on the note that BLU's entire purpose is to be diverse and adaptable, but I don't want this to turn into one of those threads.

Ok so I'll go with using Heavy Strike on fodder. I'm pretty skeptical about using it on NM's and especially bosses.

I can't see plague being useful on fodder, but yeah I always use delta thrust on NMs and bosses. Bosses still get TP moves off anyway but I just assume it's not quite as often.

As for QC, it's got a pretty long cooldown. And I don't really spam it anyway. I rely on melee damage a lot. For some reason I have yet to run in to any issues with mp in NI. I'm still trying to figure that out. At this point I'm going to assume it's either a difference in temp items or I'm not utilizing AoE spells often enough.

Unless we're talking about 6/6 blus then there is a need to discuss other jobs to see how that affects blu in NNI.

Sch not having hastega with accession is what i claim I didn't know

The confusion came when Brain responded to our argument first then I counter argue in talking about current NNI setup. I respond about only about current NNI because that's what I was talking about with you only before he joined.

Haste and Recast are an important factor in spells because it deals with how fast spells go off and how long you're waiting to shoot the next one off(ie time), it's not something you should brush off especially when it comes to making a haste cycle. I used that because it makes your argument weaker and it's going to depend more on what your schs are doing with their time and how they're using their time. A 20 second recast is a big cooldown for a buff you have to cycle constantly and given the utility of haste it's something you should gear appropriately for.

Blu helps with making things smoother but I don't see how people can struggle with keeping some sort of consistent haste throughout floors that require it from 2 sch in a group.

Obviously Haste and Recast is important, but I don't know what kind of gear everyone has nor am I going to post different cast and recast times for every possible gear setup. It doesn't make my argument weaker to cite the base cast and recast times. Obviously anyone with an ounce of common sense will know those times are affected by buffs/gear.
In an argument between two people, each one's purpose is to show how they are right, and the other person is wrong. I showed why you were wrong about your statements concerning SCH haste vs BLU haste. I also showed why I was right by citing the facts we know about haste.

I will reiterate myself.
1) SCH cannot hastega
2) Haste and Animating Wail give the exact same effect but they have different cast and recast times.

I hope that's more clear. There's nothing to continue arguing about with me unless you want to disagree with those facts. However, I would encourage you to use one of the FFXI wiki sites before making claims about jobs that you are unfamiliar with.

Your points have always been clear but you aren't/weren't accomodating additonal factors that should be considered, after you do it makes the argument moot for either side. You should give realistic values for haste if you're going to use the information in support of an argument to accommodate for what the player can use.

Still admitting a third time that I was wrong about sch not being able to do hastega. And also what you wrote with diffusion is a great idea I used it myself last night but it's not a crutch.

It's because the Haste spell is not instant nor does it have a low recast timer. Anyone who's done Haste cycles in the past would know this. Your DD's are not going to stay in one spot while they wait on you applying haste to them one at a time, their going to be hauling a$$ and you can't cast while running. Combine those two together and you end up with a slinky effect on your haste cycles, their not all evenly distributed time wise. To make this slightly worse is that one support member is always at the pole and not chasing the DD's. Makes it so they can only haste right after floor jumps, so even more slinky effect.

The boon of Diff + Wail is that you immediately get a 5min haste minimum on all your DD's at the very start, and again in the middle (next Embrava or NT March's). Lets the support focus on other things during that time, also one Perp Haste will last the entire duration from Wail down to Diff being back up again.

SCH/smn can hastega. (the rune sch) At start after embrava - cycles with regen V ga easy effective and lets the other sch aoe phalanx/enspell/firestorm/regain effectively and having 2 spare strategems most of the time (usually 3) for accession debuffs its a good way of capping magic haste with embrava and has a decent duration effect, not to mention near instant as its a ja.

I'm going to suggest one of my scholars do this. Let ya know what they're response is. Have a feeling neither one is going to want to give up the ability to cast *na spells, but we'll see.

Why don't you just do those with a melee weapon so you can contribute to more dmg? Nobody ask you not to -na with a melee weapon, nobody ask you not to roll with a melee weapon, you can do all those without a staff, on the same time being to contribute more dmg. If you like /mage that much, that's fine, but why give up on trying to squeeze out more dmg with it? Dmg never a problem in Nyzul? Dmg is always a problem unless you have 100% win rate.

And lol@ you can't get 100 TP with a gun, no matter how good you are, you're just not gonna get TP faster than meleeing under capped haste condition with a gun.

This statement, among many others is why people need to stop taking you seriously.

Peldin: "Hey what do you guys think about one of you going /SMN for hastega?"
SCHs: "No point. Keeping up haste is easy with BLU"

I don't know about your runs, but most runs I know of lose due to lamps and/or really poor jumps. A COR meleeing instead of shooting isn't going to help that problem. Also since the damage I want from the COR is Shot/WF specifically, why would I want them to drop their shot/WF damage by such a massive amount?

Shouldn't you be busy doing support job stuff in general, aka your job, to contribute too much melee wise anyway?

No idea who Brain is even talking to lol. Use quotes please if you're going to address a post that's not obvious. If you're responding to my post, then all I have to say is, "wtf?"

Since you weren't talking about COR i was pretty sure it was kinda obvious who i was talking to.

So, you let your COR wear a staff, suddenly it you get better jump and better at support?

You also want your COR to WF/QD, which is 1. doing dmg(so you're just contradict yourself). 2. you can do it without a staff, and in the case of WF, faster without a staff. If you want WF that much, melee with capped haste gains TP way faster than with a staff. I never tell you don't support, don't WF, don't QD. I'm just telling you better way to do it. Staff doesn't make you -na better, doesn't make you WF faster, it make your QD dmg bigger but you can make it up with faster TP gain for WF. Outside of VW and Abyssea QD dmg boost from a staff is very small to begin with. If you seriously find you need bigger WF when flan pop, you can always switch to a staff fast and switch back for everything else.

And what will be your COR doing when your DD doesn't need -na, already buffed, and no flan popped? Stand there waving your hands with a staff? Just because you only wanted WF/QD/roll/-na and doesn't care about every other aspect of the job, doesn't mean he/she can't do more than you expected.




You sound like having one person standing there not contributing to dmg is better than dealing dmg and help kill. I never once tell anyone not to do support stuff and only DD, I only said you can squeeze out extra dmg when you're doing support. Unless you have 100% win rate, I only see it being more beneficial to the group.