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SOPA and PIPA
Bahamut.Serj
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6179
By Bahamut.Serj 2012-01-18 15:22:52
Amusingly however, both links you provided go to Wikipedia, which is blacked out in protest of SOPA/PIPA. If you use noscript and have wikimedia blocked, the blackout doesn't happen >_>
Just fyi.
Yeah, I figured that in the spirit of better understanding how the laws would affect us, wiki wouldn't mind me peeking at them.
I had to figure out why it wasn't blacked out for me.
Not like I'm being ignorant and avoiding all of this. I've spent a ton of time sending letters/emails to people, signing online petitions, and making phone calls for the past week.
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Lakshmi.Jaerik
Administrator
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By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2012-01-18 15:28:57
In a lot of people's defense, the NDAA and Patriot Acts only apply to Americans, so there isn't much reason for them to care.
SOPA and PIPA, due to the fact that the majority of websites, search engines, and DNS entities are operated from within the US, has world-wide consequences.
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Caitsith.Heimdall
Server: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1318
By Caitsith.Heimdall 2012-01-18 15:30:16
The more I read stuff about this and comments by the bills supporters, the more it seems like they were just told "This bill is going to stop online piracy" and they thought "Well that's good, no point in reading it!"
you should seen the online debate on this few months ago noone there had a clew how the tech worked and someone did a search for a movie on there ipad and i think started quoating movie reveiw sites as illegal pirate sites...
Lakshmi.Eyrhika
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 764
By Lakshmi.Eyrhika 2012-01-18 15:31:35
Carbuncle.Ianpyst said: »It's funny how everyone is all like "OMG not meh internets!"
Where was everyone when they passed the Patriot Act and now the NDAA?
That's right,we don't need civil liberties,just moar free music and movies. nobody believed that these affected them directly
Well, the NDAA doesn't effect any American citizen. So Vandell's comment is just that of ignorance.
Everything I read says otherwise. It doesn't say that you -can- detain US citizens, but it also doesn't say that you can't. The language of the bill is weird, but from what I have hashed out from other people's take on the bill is this: The military can't decide to hold you under the NDAA, but if it is ordered to, then they can, citizen or otherwise.
Odin.Liela
Server: Odin
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Posts: 10191
By Odin.Liela 2012-01-18 15:32:07
I hate to be so ignorant, but what exactly does the Patriot Act do? I was a child (well, a teen) when it went into play if I recall correctly, and I have no idea what it's actually about.
If NDAA is the one who allows the US military to detain suspected terrorists indefinitely, I did protest that one but it just wasn't nearly as wide-spread as the sopa protest.
VIP
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 14552
By Siren.Kalilla 2012-01-18 15:32:35
Amusingly however, both links you provided go to Wikipedia, which is blacked out in protest of SOPA/PIPA. If you use noscript and have wikimedia blocked, the blackout doesn't happen >_>
Just fyi.
Yeah, I figured that in the spirit of better understanding how the laws would affect us, wiki wouldn't mind me peeking at them.
I had to figure out why it wasn't blacked out for me.
Not like I'm being ignorant and avoiding all of this. I've spent a ton of time sending letters/emails to people, signing online petitions, and making phone calls for the past week. Even if you aren't, Wiki has provided a few pages that are available w/o blocking them so people can read up on the topic.
Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2012-01-18 15:35:27
In a lot of people's defense, the NDAA and Patriot Acts only apply to Americans, so there isn't much reason for them to care.
SOPA and PIPA, due to the fact that the majority of websites, search engines, and DNS entities are operated from within the US, has world-wide consequences. Well... technically anything that affects our military does have global consequences, but I digress let's focus on the topic at hand.
Carbuncle.Ianpyst
Server: Carbuncle
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Posts: 231
By Carbuncle.Ianpyst 2012-01-18 15:39:10
Everything I read says otherwise. It doesn't say that you -can- detain US citizens, but it also doesn't say that you can't. The language of the bill is weird, but from what I have hashed out from other people's take on the bill is this: The military can't decide to hold you under the NDAA, but if it is ordered to, then they can, citizen or otherwise.
You shouldn't just take what your told. Everything you read, was wrong. A little research goes a long way:
Quote: Carbuncle.Ianpyst said:
Nothing in the NDAA applies to citizens, or a "martial law". Hell, most of what you see people whining about was already a placed law (Public Law: Authorization for Use of Military Force September 18, 2001). And even in this case, it was used on two suspected al Qaeda terrorists back in 2004, and hasn't been used since (which if you read the law, is understandable why).
The NDAA doesn't expand the government’s detention authority. It really doesn't mandate the military detention of other terrorist suspects. But best of all... it doesn't authorize detention of citizens (in any way). However, it does make Obama's promise of closing Guantanamo Bay an impossibility for at least the next year.
And to all the "the Bill of Rights is dead" people: No federal statute can repeal the Bill of Rights. While I do agree that some of our rights are being squandered and/or taken away a bit at a time, this act [the NDAA] plays no part in that.
Edit: Some Links~
The NDAA itself.
A helpful guide as your reading the NDAA (or you can just read this if your lazy :)
Lakshmi.Jaerik
Administrator
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By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2012-01-18 15:47:54
Please take discussion of NDAA / Patriot Act to another thread. Let's keep this about SOPA + PIPA.
By Artemicion 2012-01-18 15:50:32
So if a copyright holder or investigator of sorts found dirt on your site or an infringing user, would they have the authority to have you shut down immediately, or would there be a sort of cease and desist notice given to remove said content in a timely manner?
VIP
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 14552
By Siren.Kalilla 2012-01-18 15:51:41
So if a copyright holder or investigator of sorts found dirt on your site or an infringing user, would they have the authority to have you shut down immediately, or would there be a sort of cease and desist notice given to remove said content in a timely manner? From what I read it would be shut down w/o any warning, and you would have to go to court to get it back up and running after you prove your innocence.
By Artemicion 2012-01-18 15:52:50
I see a lot of potential misfires and blocked sites without any grounds or merit for doing so, but the problem is, even if site owners or administrators can prove otherwise and free their site, the damage is already done. Even having it blocked for a short time ruins a degree of credibility to both the users and advertisers for it.
Bismarck.Siggymund
Premium
Server: Bismarck
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Posts: 95
By Bismarck.Siggymund 2012-01-18 15:56:07
This is such crap. The music/movie industry just needs to hold their employees more accountable for leaking the media before it's released. They make enough money from the crappy stuff they release these days anyways.
By slipispsycho 2012-01-18 15:58:52
Well it's been said repeatedly that the entire thing needs to be rewritten, but now I'm sitting here trying to imagine how it could be rewritten, be effective and not outright infringe on people's rights, and I just can't do it.
How can you possibly make it effective without stepping on people's rights? I mean they have ways to combat it now, but it's far from effective.
By zahrah 2012-01-18 16:01:33
Well it's been said repeatedly that the entire thing needs to be rewritten, but now I'm sitting here trying to imagine how it could be rewritten, be effective and not outright infringe on people's rights, and I just can't do it.
How can you possibly make it effective without stepping on people's rights? I mean they have ways to combat it now, but it's far from effective.
I was trying to envision an ideal scenario too, but I'm coming up blank.
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Lakshmi.Phaffi
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 298
By Lakshmi.Phaffi 2012-01-18 16:09:34
What would this do to online education, like if a student posted something in a forum discussion for class?
Quetzalcoatl.Setsuai
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 61
By Quetzalcoatl.Setsuai 2012-01-18 16:11:43
I haven't read the whole thread so this may be a double post, but google has started a petition for this. You just have to click the blacked out part of it and it will take you to the petition page. It maybe takes 10 seconds to put in your info, maybe 20 if you share it on Facebook, Twitter or Google+.
Valefor.Mithano
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 541
By Valefor.Mithano 2012-01-18 16:12:12
What would this do to online education, like if a student posted something in a forum discussion for class?
Gone.
These laws have the potential to remove ANY site on the internet, user generated content or not, with little legal hearing prior.
User generated sites are even more vulnerable, because of the general nature to allow user-generated content to be posted without prior review. But that's really just a side effect - even with moderation, a company can come in and have the site shut down.
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye
Server: Quetzalcoatl
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Posts: 6386
By Quetzalcoatl.Xueye 2012-01-18 16:12:33
I don't trust a petition to do anything, although I signed anyways.
Call, call, call!
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2027
By Odin.Daemun 2012-01-18 16:13:06
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »I don't trust a petition to do anything, although I signed anyways.
Call, call, call! Bomb threat taking it too far?
Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2012-01-18 16:14:09
Well it's been said repeatedly that the entire thing needs to be rewritten, but now I'm sitting here trying to imagine how it could be rewritten, be effective and not outright infringe on people's rights, and I just can't do it.
How can you possibly make it effective without stepping on people's rights? I mean they have ways to combat it now, but it's far from effective.
I was trying to envision an ideal scenario too, but I'm coming up blank. You know why?
I think it's because this is turning into of those "The War on X" scenarios. Sorta like "The War on Drugs."
Bismarck.Misao
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 22620
By Bismarck.Misao 2012-01-18 16:27:02
Cerberus.Irohuro
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6583
By Cerberus.Irohuro 2012-01-18 16:33:13
The more I read stuff about this and comments by the bills supporters, the more it seems like they were just told "This bill is going to stop online piracy" and they thought "Well that's good, no point in reading it!"
everyone knows that US senators never read the bills, they just listen to what they sponsors say they are and go from that. i think there was even a news clip somewhere where one even admitted that.
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2027
By Odin.Daemun 2012-01-18 16:42:04
Well it's been said repeatedly that the entire thing needs to be rewritten, but now I'm sitting here trying to imagine how it could be rewritten, be effective and not outright infringe on people's rights, and I just can't do it.
How can you possibly make it effective without stepping on people's rights? I mean they have ways to combat it now, but it's far from effective.
I was trying to envision an ideal scenario too, but I'm coming up blank. You know why?
I think it's because this is turning into of those "The War on X" scenarios. Sorta like "The War on Drugs." so a fitting name would be "The War on Freedom"?
[+]
Sylph.Zohnax
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 248
By Sylph.Zohnax 2012-01-18 16:52:59
The more I read stuff about this and comments by the bills supporters, the more it seems like they were just told "This bill is going to stop online piracy" and they thought "Well that's good, no point in reading it!"
everyone knows that US senators never read the bills, they just listen to what they sponsors say they are and go from that. i think there was even a news clip somewhere where one even admitted that. That's incredibly disturbing. What's more disturbing is how these people get into office.
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 295
By Siren.Murdock 2012-01-18 16:53:08
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Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2027
By Odin.Daemun 2012-01-18 16:53:45
The more I read stuff about this and comments by the bills supporters, the more it seems like they were just told "This bill is going to stop online piracy" and they thought "Well that's good, no point in reading it!"
everyone knows that US senators never read the bills, they just listen to what they sponsors say they are and go from that. i think there was even a news clip somewhere where one even admitted that. That's incredibly disturbing. What's more disturbing is how these people get into office. The uneducated, gullible, American populous.
Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2012-01-18 16:54:45
Well it's been said repeatedly that the entire thing needs to be rewritten, but now I'm sitting here trying to imagine how it could be rewritten, be effective and not outright infringe on people's rights, and I just can't do it.
How can you possibly make it effective without stepping on people's rights? I mean they have ways to combat it now, but it's far from effective.
I was trying to envision an ideal scenario too, but I'm coming up blank. You know why?
I think it's because this is turning into of those "The War on X" scenarios. Sorta like "The War on Drugs." so a fitting name would be "The War on Freedom"? Ultimately yeah, but this particular one would be something like "The War on Copyright Infringement" or something like that.
"The War on Piracy" seems more directed at downloading warez.
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2027
By Odin.Daemun 2012-01-18 16:59:42
Well it's been said repeatedly that the entire thing needs to be rewritten, but now I'm sitting here trying to imagine how it could be rewritten, be effective and not outright infringe on people's rights, and I just can't do it.
How can you possibly make it effective without stepping on people's rights? I mean they have ways to combat it now, but it's far from effective.
I was trying to envision an ideal scenario too, but I'm coming up blank. You know why?
I think it's because this is turning into of those "The War on X" scenarios. Sorta like "The War on Drugs." so a fitting name would be "The War on Freedom"? Ultimately yeah, but this particular one would be something like "The War on Copyright Infringement" or something like that.
"The War on Piracy" seems more directed at downloading warez. I didn't mean their 'catchy' term for it, I meant the truthful title.
Lakshmi.Jesi
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 576
By Lakshmi.Jesi 2012-01-18 17:07:17
The worst thing about the bill is that we'll still be able to download torrents while legit sites are going to be hit hard.
Angry Video Game Nerd has already said that if it passes he'll have to stop doing video game/movie parodies and concentrate on making more original works.
You may have noticed a number of sites around the internet either going offline, or blacking themselves out today, in protest of two bills in the US Congress that were recently set to pass with nearly unanimous consent of both Republicans and Democrats. An enormous opposition movement has popped up among tech, game, and internet companies, and the bills are now stalled pending further review, but the Democratic (Senate) and Republican (House) leaders are still set on moving forward with them at some point, so it's still important to mention.
Here's a description of what these bills do in a nutshell, and why our users should be concerned.
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Probably the most important provision of online copyright law is something called the DMCA Safe Harbor Provision. This legal provision says that someone who hosts a site that allows user content (example: Google, which links to other sites, FFXI, which allows user chat, or even our site, which allows forum posts) is a legally separate entity from their users, as far as copyright violations are concerned.
In plain English, this means that if one of you decides to make a forum post linking to or re-posting copyrighted content, you are legally responsible. You can be sued. But as long as we make a good faith effort to remove the content as soon as we're notified, we (meaning Scragg, Cliff, and I) cannot be held personally responsible, nor directly sued for violation of copyright ourselves.
Similarly, Safe Harbor means that we cannot be held responsible for sites that we link to, should those sites violate copyright. In other words, if gamerescape, or wikia, or any of the sites linked in our item pages violate copyright somewhere on their own pages, that's their problem -- not ours.
The only way for a copyright holder to take legal action against FFXIAH.com is if they take us to court, and prove beyond a reasonable doubt that we purposely and actively engaged in the violation of copyright ourselves. Which is a pretty high bar to reach.
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SOPA and PIPA essentially remove the Safe Harbor provision. In other words, if one of you decides to link to copyrighted content on our forum, we are now directly and personally responsible, and can theoretically be sued for copyright violation as though we were the ones doing it ourselves. Similarly, if a site we link to (like wikia) decides to violate copyright, we can also be held responsible just for linking to them.
Worse, the bills remove the requirement to even take us to court. Copyright holders themselves (private entities) can now go straight to the internet's DNS authorities (the master address listing for all sites on the web) and file a complaint. This will immediately knock FFXIAH.com offline without so much as a court ruling. It's then incumbent upon us to fight back in court and earn the right to bring the site back.
Copyright holders argue this is necessary because they lose money for every second a site is allowed to link to, or feature, copyrighted content. They argue they need ultimate power to knock sites off the internet immediately, and only deal with the burden of proof later.
They promise to only use their new powers "sparingly" and "responsibly." I'm sure you can all guess how that one will end.
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This makes the internet a very dangerous place to operate. Google could be held responsible for returning links to any sites that could even possibly feature copyrighted content. (Which is most of them.) We could be forced to pre-censor all forum and user content for copyright violations before we could even put them online. Arguably, MMO's couldn't even allow users to speak freely in chat, as they might mention something copyrighted, which would make the MMO companies themselves legally responsible, and capable of being knocked offline without trial at the first complaint. Sites like Wikipedia, which are based entirely on user content, probably couldn't operate at all due to the inherent dangers. The effects would be widespread and very chilling to how the internet operates.
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Having worked in the games industry for 15 years, I'm acutely aware of the financial damage done by online piracy. This thread is not the place to argue the virtues or moral pitfalls of pirated content.
That being said, these bills are deeply flawed. They were written by major copyright holders (the recording and movie industries) to give them carte blanche ultimate authority over the internet. They comprise a massive overreach, and our elected representatives (who are too old to even understand how VCRs work, let alone the web) are too clueless to realize what's actually in them.
If you have a second, please sign one of the (many) online petitions in protest of SOPA and PIPA, and/or contact your representative or senator and urge them to oppose the bills. This is not a Democrat or Republican thing -- both parties have been equally supportive of the bills and both parties are responsible.
The massive outpouring of opposition from tech companies has caused many people in Congress to change their minds, and the White House has also now expressed reservations about signing the bills in their current form. But the battle isn't done yet. The bills still live, and will still be brought up in the next Congressional session.
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Thanks for taking the time to read this.
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