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Melee RDM
 Cerberus.Rayik
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 924
By Cerberus.Rayik 2011-09-08 08:58:40
Optimal equipment will also change pretty drastically when you are in and out of Abyssea. Attk., STP, and haste should be your focus inside, while STP and attk. fall down the priority list outside in favor of acc.(when needed) and raw STR, the latter of which is extremely potent when uncapped(which is virtually always, outside).
Also, don't touch the advice of any official forum regular with a 10-foot pole.
To be fair, there has been almost no discussion about actual gear over there because of all the fighting from the anti-melee RDM's(and some non-RDM's). We can't get a word about gear in edge-wise from the constant shouting down and bickering.
Recently we agreed that haste is good, and Almace is tops... In a 140+ page melee thread. That should tell you how the conversation is progressing. >.<
 Lakshmi.ByrthVIP
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6137
By Lakshmi.Byrth 2011-09-08 09:07:33
Most of the time RDM melee discussions get sidetracked on the issue of whether or not RDM should melee and never hit upon "if we're going to melee, how do we do it?"
The answers are:
1) No, most of the time you shouldn't melee.
2) If you're going to melee, cap Accuracy and Haste, Dual Wield, and then focus on STR and Attack.
Generally the discussion, assuming it makes it to the second point, gets bumped back to the first point because people try to go into specifics and realize they need to know what monster they're fighting before they can decide how to gear. "What monster am I fighting?" -> "You should never melee on RDM, so no monsters." -> "Bicker bicker"
Cerberus.Rayik
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 924
By Cerberus.Rayik 2011-09-08 09:37:57
I'm waiting until after the update to try and start a legitimate thread on melee, that's actually about melee; talking shop, gear choices, testimonials, etc. I have a good feeling about the buffs we're getting in the update, but I'm going to wait and see for myself.
It'd be amazing if the nay-sayers could back off and just let the RDM's that melee have a thread about the play style. It's legitimate enough that even SE has stepped in to buff it, so the anti-crowd has lost a lot of footing in the argument.
My thought is if you don't want to melee on RDM, then don't. But, everyone else on the official forums thinks they're an ordained expert on everyone else's play style and idea of fun, so the bickering never ends.
Bismarck.Luces
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 517
By Bismarck.Luces 2011-09-08 10:07:51
I'm waiting until after the update to try and start a legitimate thread on melee, that's actually about melee; talking shop, gear choices, testimonials, etc. I have a good feeling about the buffs we're getting in the update, but I'm going to wait and see for myself.
It'd be amazing if the nay-sayers could back off and just let the RDM's that melee have a thread about the play style. It's legitimate enough that even SE has stepped in to buff it, so the anti-crowd has lost a lot of footing in the argument.
My thought is if you don't want to melee on RDM, then don't. But, everyone else on the official forums thinks they're an ordained expert on everyone else's play style and idea of fun, so the bickering never ends.
The melee gear thread is actually like that mostly about CDC though thats due to rdm's gear restrictions currently. But you could easly add more to it, the trolls haven't visited it in a while so unless they. Thing is their aren't really gear choices for rdm, until this update though. You can reach haste cap but you have to have 1 dusk+1 piece or the haste belt form AV(this is the wiggle room that we have until the 95 update).
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 134
By Shiva.Johneblaze 2011-09-08 10:09:57
:( the official forum is full a landfill of bad ideas. I would not reference that for opinions.
better mod?
By Drjones 2011-09-08 10:20:22
@Rayik
I don't think anyone on the OF is making mention of what's fun or not, just what the metagame has been for the last decade. That's part of the disconnect though. Some people file it under "fun" while other people are trying to file it under "fundamental core function of the job".
If the discussion was talking about what was fun then I'd be chiming in about how entertaining I find it to cast enspells and punch bunnies to death. Or how the concept of a Scholar wielding a Rune Chopper is totally awesome. Or how I wish our AF3 hat didn't look so dumb when the Warlock's Chapeau is my absolute favorite hat in the entire game.
But that's never the topic of those discussions.
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 197
By Fenrir.Kendraian 2011-09-08 10:22:41
Okay i feel alot of danger by posting this lmaoo but this is my idea for RDM/DRK The Dark Rings obviously will be augmented with -pdt% and i didnt include and the choice of weapon is because Originall i didnt want emphys/relics/ect put in there but this is pure tp set. I figure ur a RDM so throw up ur Stoneskin/Haste/Enspell of choice/Phanlex and all the other goodies you like using macroed in pieces. This is only for RDM/DRK too cause im not a dagger person so Sanguine Blade is the ws of choice for me. To be continued...
Cerberus.Rayik
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 924
By Cerberus.Rayik 2011-09-08 10:29:30
Okay i feel alot of danger by posting this lmaoo but this is my idea for RDM/DRK The Dark Rings obviously will be augmented with -pdt% and i didnt include and the choice of weapon is because Originall i didnt want emphys/relics/ect put in there but this is pure tp set. I figure ur a RDM so throw up ur Stoneskin/Haste/Enspell of choice/Phanlex and all the other goodies you like using macroed in pieces. This is only for RDM/DRK too cause im not a dagger person so Sanguine Blade is the ws of choice for me. To be continued...
There's some nice pieces in that set, but it's sort of all over the place. I've had better luck taking a theme and trying to cap it(haste, -PDT, etc) and using those sets when the situation arises.
If inventory is an issue and you just want a sort of all-around set, I guess it could work, but unless it's a specific -PDT build, I'd take Rajas over -PDT any day.
By Drjones 2011-09-08 10:37:17
There's a haste shield RDM can equip iirc, so you can squeeze in another point in that slot if you care to. It looks like you're going for a partial PDT build in there so I dunno if you want to drop Genbu's for that.
 Quetzalcoatl.Neisan
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 387
By Quetzalcoatl.Neisan 2011-09-08 10:40:24
Cerberus.Leoxtribal said: »Almace is hard and lolKendaian <3 You also have PLD so why not just get one. 1 haste over so substitute where need's be, but this should be a decent starting place. I agree. If you want to play around on rdm melee, this would be a nice goal to work towards. Haste is always <3d. Also, it's not bad to have a fast cast gear swap for utsusemi if you were to /nin it up. I love my rdm/nin, crappy as dd or not. If you want serious opinions on rdm melee it might be best to try the official XI forums as you will mostly get "War/sam only" No, that would be a terrible idea. As for the gearset above, if you're looking to maximize damage you might want to look into using a Lightning Bow instead for the DEX it adds, which should help your CDC numbers more than Subtle Blow will. It should also be noted that you can't equip that ammo with a bow equipped, so pick one or the other.
Smart grenade/Thunder sachet would be better than fulltiming lightning bow +1 imo, or using astrolabe/oneiros for accuracy.
@above outside abyssea Death Blossom isn't terrible and at least outperforms savage... Not sure why you're going half haste/attack and half PDT, focuse on haste/acc if needed/attack gear and swap to PDT/MDt sets when necessary.
Leviathan.Dodu
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 652
By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-09-08 10:40:32
I'm waiting until after the update to try and start a legitimate thread on melee, that's actually about melee; talking shop, gear choices, testimonials, etc. I have a good feeling about the buffs we're getting in the update, but I'm going to wait and see for myself.
It'd be amazing if the nay-sayers could back off and just let the RDM's that melee have a thread about the play style. It's legitimate enough that even SE has stepped in to buff it, so the anti-crowd has lost a lot of footing in the argument.
My thought is if you don't want to melee on RDM, then don't. But, everyone else on the official forums thinks they're an ordained expert on everyone else's play style and idea of fun, so the bickering never ends.
Without disagreeing with the idea of being able to have specific area where one can discuss the intricacies of optimal RDM-melee, I wouldn't call Temper an official sanction on its legitimacy. RDM melee is weaker than WHM melee, which is virtually never appropriate in any situation where even semi-optimal productivity is desired. That said, I enjoy both RDM and WHM melee(I did after all create a WHM Empyrean club), and partake in it quite often out of boredom with traditional roles.
Bismarck.Luces
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 517
By Bismarck.Luces 2011-09-08 10:42:02
Rajas, Heed ring, and augmented Wivre neck from Tahrongi canyon(augment with Subtle blow +4/5 crit rate +2%) or Fortitude Torque, about as hard to get as a dark ring, actually I have seen far more of these then dark rings but the crit augment is rare. Unless your tanking you don''t need to be tping in -dt gear, and if you /drk you shouldn't be tanking. Even /drk evis. in abyssea will still beat Vorpal. Though most likely you will be using Sanquin blade. Which is good as long as you have a good set for it.
Bismarck.Luces
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 517
By Bismarck.Luces 2011-09-08 10:45:55
I'm waiting until after the update to try and start a legitimate thread on melee, that's actually about melee; talking shop, gear choices, testimonials, etc. I have a good feeling about the buffs we're getting in the update, but I'm going to wait and see for myself.
It'd be amazing if the nay-sayers could back off and just let the RDM's that melee have a thread about the play style. It's legitimate enough that even SE has stepped in to buff it, so the anti-crowd has lost a lot of footing in the argument.
My thought is if you don't want to melee on RDM, then don't. But, everyone else on the official forums thinks they're an ordained expert on everyone else's play style and idea of fun, so the bickering never ends.
without disagreeing with the idea of being able to have specific area where one can discuss the intricacies of optimal RDM-melee, I wouldn't call Temper an official sanction on its legitimacy. RDM melee is weaker than WHM melee, which is virtually never appropriate in any situation where even semi-optimal productivity is desired. That said, I enjoy both RDM and WHM melee(I did after all create a WHM Empyrean club), and partake in it quite often out of boredom with traditional roles.
Rdm mellee is much stronger then whm melee if your whm is betting your rdm then they aren't equal levels of geared or your off handing a k-club and main handing a relic.
Quetzalcoatl.Neisan
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 387
By Quetzalcoatl.Neisan 2011-09-08 10:45:58
Why heed? it's not like he has much or any subtle blow without rajas. Yes I know subtle blow helps reduce TP feed but I don't think +7 is going to make a noticeable difference when he's starting off with 0 (5 with rajas).
Bismarck.Luces
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 517
By Bismarck.Luces 2011-09-08 10:48:10
Quetzalcoatl.Neisan said: »Why heed? it's not like he has much or any subtle blow without rajas. Yes I know subtle blow helps reduce TP feed but I don't think +7 is going to make a noticeable difference when he's starting off with 0 (5 with rajas).
rajas +5, heed +7, neck +4/5 = 16/17 subtle blow. and the only other ring that would work instead of heed would be keen which heed is better then. If your using brisk mask, and goading belt, then add rajas and that should be enough to take 1 swing at least off to 100, should be enough to knock another swing off your tp to 100 and hoard ring as well I don't remember the exact stp numbers but I know that hoard ring can be used with a stp ammo to take another swing off those needed to be 100.
Cerberus.Rayik
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 924
By Cerberus.Rayik 2011-09-08 10:50:29
Without disagreeing with the idea of being able to have specific area where one can discuss the intricacies of optimal RDM-melee, I wouldn't call Temper an official sanction on its legitimacy. RDM melee is weaker than WHM melee, which is virtually never appropriate in any situation where even semi-optimal productivity is desired. That said, I enjoy both RDM and WHM melee(I did after all create a WHM Empyrean club), and partake in it quite often out of boredom with traditional roles.
We're getting a lot more than just Temper. Gain-STR is going to be a nice addition, as well as the super-secret WS adjustments. SE specifically said they were going to revise them for RDM melee, but didn't give any other details. This could mean upping the output of our existing native WS like Savage Blade, or (finally) granting us access to other EX sword WS's like Vorpal or Sanguine.
Not to mention all that shiny new haste gear, and that haste/drain-tp sword that have RDM on them.
[+]
Leviathan.Dodu
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 652
By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-09-08 11:01:52
Rdm mellee is much stronger then whm melee if your whm is betting your rdm then they aren't equal levels of geared or your off handing a k-club and main handing a relic.
Both are going to be atrocious on any higher level content outside of Abyssea, and if one is capable of producing an Almace, they're capable of producing a Kraken Club(the selling prices are nearly identical).
Leviathan.Dodu
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 652
By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-09-08 11:04:46
Without disagreeing with the idea of being able to have specific area where one can discuss the intricacies of optimal RDM-melee, I wouldn't call Temper an official sanction on its legitimacy. RDM melee is weaker than WHM melee, which is virtually never appropriate in any situation where even semi-optimal productivity is desired. That said, I enjoy both RDM and WHM melee(I did after all create a WHM Empyrean club), and partake in it quite often out of boredom with traditional roles.
We're getting a lot more than just Temper. Gain-STR is going to be a nice addition, as well as the super-secret WS adjustments. SE specifically said they were going to revise them for RDM melee, but didn't give any other details. This could mean upping the output of our existing native WS like Savage Blade, or (finally) granting us access to other EX sword WS's like Vorpal or Sanguine.
Not to mention all that shiny new haste gear, and that haste/drain-tp sword that have RDM on them.
Gain-STR is as much a concession of RDM's melee viability as Gain-CHR is on its ability to sub BST and charm relevant content. As such, Temper was very obviously meant to appease the whiny, while no purely RDM melee gear has been introduced(outside of the necessity of including a JSE weapon in a Heroes zone) in several years(and if it is, its in all likelihood for the very same reason Temper was implemented). The fact that Temper is complete garbage(and likely a determent to your physical output in total) speaks volumes.
Cerberus.Rayik
Server: Cerberus
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Posts: 924
By Cerberus.Rayik 2011-09-08 11:09:00
You do realize the % on Temper scales up with enhancing skill? It's not a flat 5%.
Cerberus.Rayik
Server: Cerberus
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Posts: 924
By Cerberus.Rayik 2011-09-08 11:10:11
And just because part of the RDM populace demanded an update to a long ignored facet of the job, we're whiny? Is it possible then to ask for any kind of update in the game without being seen as whiny?
Leviathan.Dodu
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 652
By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-09-08 11:12:56
You do realize that was the least pertinent to my point, yet the only portion addressed?
This isn't the first or last time SE has given small benefits to non-serious aspects of their game, and unless you truly don't understand the most basic premises of this game's damage-dealing mechanics, its impossible to not see that RDM-melee is very much meant to be a casual ordeal partaken outside of important events.
Bismarck.Luces
Server: Bismarck
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Posts: 517
By Bismarck.Luces 2011-09-08 11:15:50
Rdm mellee is much stronger then whm melee if your whm is betting your rdm then they aren't equal levels of geared or your off handing a k-club and main handing a relic.
Both are going to be atrocious on any higher level content outside of Abyssea, and if one is capable of producing an Almace, they're capable of producing a Kraken Club(the selling prices are nearly identical).
An almace is super easy to get, I have one, a K-club I have done the bcnm 386 times total and never seen one drop. No rdm mellee is not atrocious against high lvl content if you gear right. and Temper they said it is suppose to scale but up, like what they changed the gain spells too, it's just not doing it yet. Ummm gain str will add like what 20 str at 95. Considering rdm str gear is really lacking and most of it has -dex or accuracy on it, this spell will be way more then obvious, it will actually cause my rdm's strength to exceed that of my blues.
Cerberus.Rayik
Server: Cerberus
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Posts: 924
By Cerberus.Rayik 2011-09-08 11:16:54
You do realize that was the least pertinent to my point, yet the only portion addressed?
This isn't the first or last time SE has given small benefits to non-serious aspects of their game, and unless you truly don't understand the most basic premises of this game's damage-dealing mechanics, its impossible to not see that RDM-melee is very much meant to be a casual ordeal partaken outside of important events.
Right, I get that much. RDM melee is just one part of a complex job. I don't think the scope of it necessarily warrants job-exclusive gear, aside from things like Chimeric Fleuret and Enhancing sword, since those play off of JA's specifically. There's nothing special about RDM melee enough to bar other melee jobs from enjoying the benefits of the same gear, things like Brisk Mask, Atheling Mantle, Calmecac Trousers, etc.
Aside from AF3 gear, has there been any recent gear post-Abyssea that was singularly job specific for other jobs, besides weapons?
EDIT: I addressed two points of your post, the thoughts just came separately so they were in two posts. Not even that far apart if you would have looked.
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 197
By Fenrir.Kendraian 2011-09-08 11:29:08
I think Okay i feel alot of danger by posting this lmaoo but this is my idea for RDM/DRK The Dark Rings obviously will be augmented with -pdt% and i didnt include and the choice of weapon is because Originall i didnt want emphys/relics/ect put in there but this is pure tp set. I figure ur a RDM so throw up ur Stoneskin/Haste/Enspell of choice/Phanlex and all the other goodies you like using macroed in pieces. This is only for RDM/DRK too cause im not a dagger person so Sanguine Blade is the ws of choice for me. To be continued...
There's some nice pieces in that set, but it's sort of all over the place. I've had better luck taking a theme and trying to cap it(haste, -PDT, etc) and using those sets when the situation arises.
If inventory is an issue and you just want a sort of all-around set, I guess it could work, but unless it's a specific -PDT build, I'd take Rajas over -PDT any day.
Well since this is RDM i figured that SS/Phanlex/-pdt% almost works like PLD(without the shield) RDM is squishy and without shadows damage has to be mitigated somehow. Remember no one will party with a Melee RDM (lol :D) so survivability has to be in place. With the Dark Rings i figure at least -5%pdt per ring will stack to at least 25%pdt which is way better than 0% and with all the haste/double attack/triple attack and soon to be temper TP shouldnt be a problem at all. Also i forgot that /DRK offers Absorb spells specifially absorb TP. The general idea for this set up is to do decent damage and live using mostly ur TP to heal yourself (Sanguine blade) and ur MP for debuffs/buffs that and i hate /nin with a passion lol :D
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By Fenrir.Kendraian 2011-09-08 11:31:09
Also interesting enough Enspell II work on the single hit but sambas will activate afterwards might lower the dmg output but technically that means Chimeric Fleuret will still activate on Double Attack and you can throw in Haste Samba probably capping equipment haste @_@
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-09-08 11:36:38
Haste Samba isn't equipment haste.
Server: Fenrir
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By Fenrir.Kendraian 2011-09-08 11:37:53
Valefor.Prothescar said: »Haste Samba isn't equipment haste. Valefor.Prothescar said: »Haste Samba isn't equipment haste. I knew it! someone freakin lied to me lmaooo
Cerberus.Rayik
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 924
By Cerberus.Rayik 2011-09-08 11:37:59
Well since this is RDM i figured that SS/Phanlex/-pdt% almost works like PLD(without the shield) RDM is squishy and without shadows damage has to be mitigated somehow. Remember no one will party with a Melee RDM (lol :D) so survivability has to be in place. With the Dark Rings i figure at least -5%pdt per ring will stack to at least 25%pdt which is way better than 0% and with all the haste/double attack/triple attack and soon to be temper TP shouldnt be a problem at all. Also i forgot that /DRK offers Absorb spells specifially absorb TP. The general idea for this set up is to do decent damage and live using mostly ur TP to heal yourself (Sanguine blade) and ur MP for debuffs/buffs that and i hate /nin with a passion lol :D
RDM's aren't really all that squishy, they're one of the "hardest to kill" jobs in the game, in my opinion. You should have Phalanx and SS up anyways. By diving your focus, you're marginalizing your output. -PDT should only really be used in a set, and only if you are fighting mobs whose damage is making it difficult to keep yourself healed. Mixing and matching will always yield mediocre results. You should be able to hit yourself with a Cure IV easily enough to counteract the PDT.
And Rajas is really just too good to not use; 5STR andDEX, STP and SB all in one piece is really amazing. -5 PDT you aren't really going to notice; 5 points less of every 100 is hardly noticeable versus 5 STR, DEX, STP, and SB.
Cerberus.Rayik
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 924
By Cerberus.Rayik 2011-09-08 11:39:36
Also interesting enough Enspell II work on the single hit but sambas will activate afterwards might lower the dmg output but technically that means Chimeric Fleuret will still activate on Double Attack and you can throw in Haste Samba probably capping equipment haste @_@
Tier II enspells are junk. The damage is calculated by your enhancing skill on each individual swing, and only effect the first attack; they do not effect off hand or multiple attacks. You're not going to melee in enhancing gear, are you?
Okay so i was reading on the FFXI forus about a melee rdm and it got me wondering. I was thinking more along the lines of the way a PLD would dd (not saying their the best at it) but it is very possible with the plathora of abilities added and RDM uncanny abilities. With Temper it adds yet another interesting feat to RDM dd. I wanted to see what people think as a good set-up for a RDM dd without emphy. The major problem with RDM from what i read is its lack for WS. But RDM does have access to Sanguine Blade and if im correct its most potent from a RDM. TP build should be pretty simple with self haste and the occ 2-4 sword from emphy trials. Im not lv90 rdm and im not a buffer so if i'd level rdm it'd be to play around dd wise. With Enspells dual wielding an occ 2-4 and a mab/or joytoy im sure the damage would be something for a RDM lol. Atmas included the possibilities for a RDM dd would be something to see..
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