Hamas And Fatah Reach Tentative Deal

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Sadly your disapproval does not make me any less correct.

Can you tell me with a straight face that you honestly expect negotiation to accomplish anything after it's been failing miserably for several generations?

Before Israel was established.... There was peace in the region

After Israel was established..... Constant conflict


This will never end until they leave or blow up the entire middle east.

Don't like the answer then leave its a unfortunate truth

Sadly, I think many people the world over agree with you.

Now by established... do you mean thousands of years ago prior to the destruction of the temple by the Romans in/around 70 AD?

Or do you mean "Re-established" in 1948?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Palestine_riots

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots

prior to the "Nakba" contrary to what i believe you are stating... there was still a great deal of violence going on. And yet, Israel wasnt technically "Re-established" yet.

And you can read about the Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini who became one of Adolf Hitler's close friends... i wonder what they had in common?

And just for fun...

•Britain feared that if Arabs from the territory of British Palestine were to attack the French in Syria, France would retaliate by invading British Palestine.
Thus, Winston Churchill opted for a “Hashemite solution.” He decided to “buy off [Prince] Abdullah: to offer him a position in Transjordan.” Churchill brought a memorandum to the March, 1921 Cairo Conference, which envisaged:

•… establishing a Jewish National Home in Palestine west of the Jordan and a separate Arab entity in Palestine east of the Jordan. Abdullah, if installed in authority in Transjordan, could preside over the creation of such an Arab entity.
Churchill disregarded important objections that “since Transjordan had been included by the League of Nations in the territory of [mandated] Palestine, it was not open to Britain unilaterally to separate it from the rest of Palestine.” In order to silence Churchill’s opponents, Britain accepted a “compromise concept of Transjordan: while preserving the Arab character of area and administration to treat it as an Arab province or adjunct of Palestine.”

It is important to indicate that the British Colonial Office regarded “the administrative separation of Transjordan as a merely provisional measure. It [was] decided not to allow Zionism in Transjordan for the present but also not to bar the door against it for all time.” As it often happens, the temporary arrangement “hardened into an enduring political reality and the Arabian prince became a permanent factor of the Palestine Mandatory regime.”

Therefore, 76% of the country was given “to an Arab dynasty that was not Palestinian. The newly created province of Transjordan, later to become the independent state of Jordan, gradually drifted into existence as an entity separate from the rest of Palestine; indeed, today it is often forgotten that Jordan was ever part of Palestine.”

So, basically... Winston Churchill and friends SCREWED both the Jews and the Palestinians.

Ok we get it, you're jewish and you think Israel is right no matter what.

Unfortunatly many people the world over disagree with you.

Sorry

Actually, i was making a point to counter what you and Thunderz were saying that "Israel is the root of all evil"

The riots in the 1920's involved a lot of Arab on Jewish violence, however between the Irgun and the Stern gang, the violence goes the other way (Jewish on Arab) as well, and i'm not proud of that. Murder either way... is murder to me.

And if you read what i wrote, Churchill and the british screwed both the Jews and the Palestinians.

However instead of commenting intelligently on anything i said, you dismissed everything i mentioned (addressing none of it) and think that just because i am Jewish that i wish for continued Arab suffering. I wish for no such thing.

Do you have anything other to add to a discussion than snarky comments?

Edit: I'm great at snarky comments.

I didn't say that, please don't try and put words in my mouth.

By agreeing to what thunderz said ("Before Israel was established.... There was peace in the region." After Israel was established..... Constant conflict") You made it sound that you believe that Israel is the cause for all of the problems in the region. "the root of all evil" i meant as a dysphemism.

I apologize for how you took it.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make? The British are bad and Hamas/Fatah are also bad? Is that the jist of it?

I honestly have nothing else to contribute because your Israeli bias is extremly obvious.

There is two sides to every story, Israel has just as much blood on their hands.

Let me reiterate what I said previously, most people in the world really don't think there is anyway the problems in the middle east can or will be solved in our lifetimes or the lifetimes of our grandchildren. Which is what I was implying when i quoted and agreed with Thunderz before, I didn't claim Israel was the root of all evil nor did he, please do not try and reflect me (can't speak for Thunderz) in such a light.

I did no such thing, you have implied that I did with your over reaction.

Why do you feel the need to view anything said different to your view as an attack?

It's really uncalled for, jumping at shadows even?

1) the brits screwed up the mandate. there was supposed to be one jewish state and one arab state. Churchill pulled a fast one and helped make the arab state of Jordan with 78% of the Palestine Mandate... but then convinced people not to consider it as an Arab nation in the context of Arab state/Jewish state of the mandate... leaving Israel and Palestine to split 22% of the mandate. So basically the outline at that point became "Large Arab State"/ "small Arab state" / small Jewish state.

So yes. The brits are bad. And the majority of this mess stems from their negligence.

2) Hamas currently... as they stand... is also bad. They have not reformed. They are still considered a terrorist group by the USA and others... and clear points that were spelled out for them to relinquish that mantle have not been followed.

3) Up until recently... prior to allying with a non-repentant Hamas, Fatah was much better in my eyes. Under Abbas and Fayyad there has been much less Arab/Jewish bloodshed, less incitement, and more co-existance. As a result... the GDP of the west bank has gone up, largely in part to the efforts of Fayyad.

It does bother me that Abbas has said that no Jew would be welcome in Palestine, though he expects Israel to capitulate on the "refugee" issue where a refugee is considered anyone related to (no matter how distant) anyone arab who lost property in the war. And absorb them into what becomes Israel. In all other definitions a refugee is said to be someone that the displacement happened to directly.

I personally wish peace would happen. I personally wish that some of the Jewish "settlers" wouldnt be so freaking crazy. I also personally wish that all sides would be able to negotiate a real and lasting peace.

I remember the Israeli pull out of Gaza. I also remember what the Israeli's got after pulling out of Gaza. Push comes to shove, Israeli's do want peace, but they fear giving land away again for rockets and mortars and missiles at schoolbuses.

A true lasting peace needs to happen for the sake of both people. But i will agree with you that it probably wont be solved in our lifetime.

I do appreciate your discussion though.

I previously apologized. We both are entitled to our opinions, and the way i interpreted your initial statement led to my response. You then clarified your position, to which i apologized for misunderstanding your position.

You do have to admit that writing lacks things used to convey emotion like body language, so the possibility exists that your point could have been taken as i initially did.

I dont attack anything contrary to my views. I may speak about it, or say my thoughts on it, but we're both entitled to our opinions on the topic. I also believe that i was reacting to what i believed you to be saying at the time until you informed me otherwise. I dont believe i was jumping at shadows at the time.

I still apologize though for how both i took your comment, and how you took my reply.

Can't be a coincidence, shortly after they reach this deal, Obama makes a speech about how he believes Israel should retract it's borders to that of the six-day war.

Israel's response was an obvious one, a big astounding no, possibly provoking more Palestinian aggression.

I think the response was closer to "these are things that should be settled in a negotiation", as opposed to something dictated by an outside party beforehand.

Those borders are nicknamed the "Auschwitz Borders."

I'm no Obama fan myself, but he did say in his speech that the Palestinians have to make a decision regarding having a group within them that denies Israel's right to exist.

That is not going to be a fun meeting between Obama and Netanyahu. And as much as i'd like to be a fly on the wall, i think the tension in the room would give me a heart attack if i went in there.

So what's your solution to the situation if talking will accomplish nothing?

Well, from an Arab's standpoint, the only solution we truly believe in is probably the 1967 borders.
But I think with each new settlement, each new death/murder/racial hate crime against us the less we see the 1967 as something achievable.
I think right now the Arabs are exiting a deep state of slumber and passiveness that commenced during the 3rd quarter of the ottomon empires reign of the Arab world.
I'm 31 years old. And I've lived in the Arab world, Europe and the USA. I've never seen this much passion and determination amongst people.
The Arabs are most definitely going through a state of drastic change.
The old guard is almost completely gone. They were dictators, uneducated, uncultured, born from an age of poverty and an inferiority complex of the west. They took their cues from the superpowers and cared little about their populations or the well being of their nation's futures. They were really feeble minded slave drivers. No more.

Today, with the communication revolution.... and ease of transportation that reached the middle east almost 2 decades ago, we're starting to see a complete different breed of "Arab".

I'll tell you this, when I came back here in 1995, I was the only kid at school who could read English and no one knew who Bill clinton or Ronald Reagan were, and what was world war 2.

Today, I see and listen to a lot of opinions all day. I listen to people talk about how things are going to change. And how it all starts with a Unified front against Israel.

That's the only thing that hasn't changed. On the contrary, it seems to be reaching some kind of ripe maturity amongst the people; Israel.

The narrative has changed from "we're gonna throw that jewish state into the sea" anymore to
They say "the zionists hijacked our cousins the Jew's religion, and we're going to discredit their lies by making them play our game".

"Our game" isn't terrorism. I don't think I've ever heard a single person in the Arab world defend terrorism to me or anyone else.

The theme in the arab world now isnt peace. Its no peace without justice. If I was Israel, I would start trying to compensate 63 years worth of turmoil I inflicted upon my neighbors.
In 5 years, Saudi Arabia's GDP will be 5x that of Israel, and the UAE 3x that of Israel.

The Gulf states are investing their money in so much economical development they might seem like they dont care about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Everyone would be wrong to assume this. We're just pacing ourselves. Cuz when we're ready, we will make our move and we will retrieve Jerusalem.

You were doing so well until your last line.

Anyways this topic was beaten to death for decades

There is no right or wrong

The only thing that will come out of this situation is conflict

Israel will always seek to expend (honestly just look at the ruling party and why they were elected for - Expanding their colony's)

Palestine is a ruble of a state and will only seek revenge for its lost land (and basically everything else in between)

Both will hammer at each other constantly and point the finger at each other every time a attack is launched

Innocents will suffer

Rinse and repeat

The only conclusion to this is War and one winner or all lose

If Hammas and Fatah want to kill each other why wouldn't Israel just move away momentarily. Let the Arab nations essentially kill each other, and move back in.

Why does it seem so simple?

Please god tell me I am crazy

Inb4pride

You should re-read the first post, it is about how Hamas and Fatah have joined together and are not killing each other anymore.

You really believe it will last?

People who murder do not change. Nations who use brainwashing to control people do not change.

My religious views are too strange I guess. I better stay out of this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THogCwyx9vg&feature=channel_video_title

No I don't, not unless Israel stops strong arming the rest of the arab world nothing will change.


I think they have no intentions of peace, they will push their walls further and further out taking more land that is not theirs all the while giving them nicknames like "Auschwitz Borders" which in turn forces the rest of the world to remember that Jewish people have done it tough in the past.

They seem to enjoy playing the victim while inflicting horror and murder on others, one would think a people who had endured so much so recently would be sick of death and violence.

Pretty insightful commentary by Thomas Friedman.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/25/opinion/25friedman.html?src=recg