Hamas And Fatah Reach Tentative Deal

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42785164/

I really dont see this going well.

"Mahmoud Zahar says new Hamas-Fatah agreement doesn't mean terror group will recognize Israel or that it will participate in peace negotiations"

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=218157


As of now Hamas has no intentions of renouncing terror, or stopping supporting attacks on Israel.

As soon as they unite with the Fatah, and one attack happens... then they are in it together. I think Fatah is shooting itself in the foot, because it cannot control Hamas.

Not to mention that the laws in the US that enable the PA under Fatah to get US Aid have a caveat that they will lose the funds if they support terror. (which the inclusion of Hamas as it currently is would enable the caveat)

I'm trying to figure out what they were thinking... or even if they were thinking.

thoughts?

sounds like there will be another short war in the region within the next year or so

I read that the new Egyptian government has been heading the (secret) effort to help the two sides to talk. If the new Egypt is even considering a support of terrorism, that could be bad indeed for Israeli security. Netanyahu says that a reunion of Hamas and Fatah would essentially put an end to any peace talks between Israel and Fatah/the PA. This is not encouraging.

EDIT: Officially, Israel says that it would not negotiate with Hamas or its close affiliates because Hamas's official position is that Israel should not exist (not just because they're listed as a terrorist organization). Maybe just a technicality, but worth mentioning I guess.

To make sure we are on the same page...

If Hamas wished to abide by the terms stated by the Quartet, not only would Netanyahu and the rest of Israel have no problem with the unification, but then Israel would lift the Blockade of the Gaza Strip, and eventually even take down the separation barrier. (Which was put up due to people blowing themselves up and taking both Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs with them)

The US would totally be on board with that as well, with the rest of the non Jew-Hating world.

Speaking of Egypt and Israel... there is an abnormally large portion of Egyptians who are in favor of cancelling the peace treaty with Israel. Link goes to article on an ex Egyptian envoy to Israel saying that cancelling the treaty is a dumb idea.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=218265

I suppose i'll give the "I'm Jewish" disclaimer. But all times that Fatah and Hamas reconciled involved Fatah members being thrown off roofs.

The palestinians have been granted a lot of good will and momentum for a state of their own, and all it will take is for 1 attack even remotely towards Israel once the unification will ruin almost everything for them.

I guess that's true, but everyone knows that Hamas would not agree to such a thing. They refuse to negotiate with Israel for obvious reasons. Doing so would be a recognition of the state, and you can't very well do that if you officially believe they should be wiped off the face of the planet. Honestly, I'm not very familiar with the Quartet (or its peace plan) though :/

So FYI, I'm not Jewish or in any way related to the issues in the area other than, I find it all intriguing. I try to keep up on the news. Also, I'm and work and don't have much time to read the actual links ><

Unfortunately, the sad fact is that there will never be any peace in the Middle East. Religion and religious differences, hatred, mistrust, intolerance and misunderstanding have followed this region for millenia. Palestine will never recognize the Israeli State and vice versa. Israel will never allow a Palestinian State to exist, much less be recognized.

The only reason the US and it's allies are even involved is because Israel IS recognized and supported, not to mention that there are allied military bases in the area giving strategic advantages to quell acts of violence and terrorism by all factions.

The US and it's allies needs to remove themselves from the conflict, as they serve as a conduit for more attacks both on locals and the allied forces. The Middle East couldn't hate Westerners a thousand, 2 thousand years ago, but terrorism was still evident.

I am certain that there are many individual Palestinians, Israeli's, Egyptians, Syrians, Libyan's etc who would love to see peace. Unfortunately, to voice an alternate view is to invite execution.

Yes, it would be nice to see an end to terrorism in all its forms, but it is too deeply ingrained into the pysche.

I will respectfully have to disagree with you at least when it comes to your thoughts on Israel refusing a palestinian state. Successive Israeli governments have made offers, each more wide reaching than the next. Each were rejected in turn by Arafat and Abbas. Even the Netanyahu government which is considered more "Right Wing" has made offers, and looks like he will be making another one in front of Congress in May. Now that Fatah is planning on including Hamas in the government, without Hamas recognizing Israel's right to exist, and renouncing terrorism this may change things a little... but it is too early to tell at the moment.

Link

Egypt is now changing its foreign policy, establishing formal relations with Iran and opening the Egypt-Gaza border at Rafah. Things are definitely changing in the Middle East.

Indeed they are. World's getting a little scary.

That doesn't seem scary to me. The article made it seem like Egypt is weighing things out. They've been told what to do and think for so long, now they just want to figure ish out on their own.

They aren't enemies, but they aren't friends either. Simply a new approach as a sovereign nation instead of a nation being puppeteered.

Israel is more obstructive in the peace negotiations than Palestine, as shown in the recent leaked documents. I kind of understand Fatah turning to Hamas. If they can't have peace with the Israel, they might try to have peace with eachother.

Welllllllll, I don't know about scary. Egypt overthrew its oppressive authoritarian government and is in the process of replacing it with a democratic one. In Syria, arguably the most anti-Israel force in the area (along with Iran), things look worse for Assad every day.

In fact, I read that some of the new Egyptian officials are pushing for these changes because they reflect the will of the people and (naturally) they want a chance at re-election. While Sadat/Mubarak were not exactly outstanding leaders, they should get some credit for being peacekeepers in the region: iirc, Egypt was the first Arab government to switch its allegiance to the West (and stop buying arms from the USSR), first to reach a peace agreement with Israel, and Egypt has been proactive in engaging both Israeli and Palestinian sides in peace talks. It might be scary to worry about losing this progress, but at the same time things do look positive for the people of Egypt.

Interestingly enough, the protests in Syria might have a positive impact on the region. Iran is worried that it could lose its close ally in Syria if the Assad government falls. Would Iran lose an ally and gain one at the same time? Could Syria become more friendly toward Israel than Egypt? o.O And what happens in Lebanon (especially south Lebanon) if the Syrian government falls?

No, not all of what's happening there is scary. I, for one, have been encouraged by what's taking place. Before, anyone upset with the establishment could only turn to rather dangerous groups, like al-Qaeda. The people are realizing they have real democratic power, and this leaves al-Qaeda on the wayside. Violence and terrorism are not the only tools for change. It remains to be seen if terrorist types will play much role in new governments (seems more likely in Yemen), but I still see these as encouraging changes. <excitement>

I will have to also respectfully disagree with both Beelshamen and Mabrook.

The validity of the "Palestine Papers" has been denied by both Abu Mazen as well as Saeb Erekat. Erekat himself stated that it was taken out of context, and that positions of Israel were construed with positions of the PA. To be honest... i'm not too trusting of Al-Jazeera, The Guardian, or Ha'Aretz.

Settlements are removable, as Israel withdrew from Gaza and only fenced it in after the suicide attacks, rockets/mortars, kept up as well as the kidnapping of Gilad Schalit. If it wasnt for those things, Gaza would not be in the state it is now. (In fact, if you look in the West Bank, the GDP of the palestinians per Fayyad has been going up.)

Israel did a settlement freeze for 9 months as a sign of good will. The Israeli people in general were against it, but thought that if it could move the sides towards peace, it would be worth it... for that amount of time only.(no freeze happened in Jerusalem, or areas that common sensually would be Israel's in a land swap until the final month, though it was not announced) This was rejected by the PA and Hamas leadership as being insufficient. For 8 of those months, Abu Mazen refused to negotiate. They negotiated the last month, and as soon as the freeze lapsed... they bailed. Again, settlements can be moved, and people can be re-located. (The village of Gush Katif formerly in Gaza, which was up-rooted... the settlers havent even been compensated by the Israeli govt yet) Facts on the ground matter little after they are bulldozed... pre-withdrawl gaza as an example.

The growth of industry in the West Bank that the palestinians can do great things with their hands when used for purposes other than violent intifadas.

The Israeli's feel that when they left Gaza, all they got in return was murder, death and terror. Hamas hasnt renounced those things, nor have they ceased in their thoughts that Israel itself in any form is illegitimate.

Dont get me wrong... i dont agree with all of the actions of the settlers... aka... the price tag crap and vandalism, and the murder that happens here and there. I think the settlers are wacky and need to chill.

Mabrook - i definately recall Hamas throwing fatah memebers off of roofs and shooting them, and fatah doing similar. The trend in Arab societies to blame Israel for all of their shortcomings isnt holding water anymore. Assad of Syria is making like his mentor Ahmadnijad and gunning down civilian protesters... that's not Israel. Once the Arab world at large start acting like Salam Fayyad and start taking responsibility for themselves, can conditions improve.

Israel is far from perfect. Sadly, it would have been nice to see what would have happened if Erekat and Abu Mazen would have given negotiations more time, instead of walking away.

Personally, I find it hard to believe that Hamas can actually be serious. They won't stop until Israel is gone? Where were they in they in 1948, 1967, or 1973? Even with all surrounding countries (with real armed forces) attacking the state, it did not fall. How are some measly terrorists with a few rockets going to expel a whole nation? Israel appears to be there to stay. So can someone explain why these guys still can't get with the program? They will never be able to terrorize a whole country into running away or whatever they're trying to accomplish. If they really step up their attacks, all they do is escalate the conflict to war, and they'll stand no chance.

While I certainly don't agree with Israel's policies and actions over the years, it's militarily stronger than any of its neighbors. Historically, that should make them the winners. It's time for a new peace plan: a two state solution.

you'd think israelis would be willing to give up a little land considering they didn't even have a country 70 years ago. anyone wondering why the palestinians can't get with the program need to do some reading.


if russia gave a group of native americans guns, tanks, and said ok we're gonna help you reclaim your ancient lands. then 70 years later you were living with what was left of the u.s. population but only in california and new york. then world condemned you everytime you tried to fight back to claim your land you might have a hard time getting with the program.


(sorry if anyone is from another country and the native american analogy doesn't work for you)


*edit* visual aid

Soon, its these 2 sides, that will have to deal, and learn to agree and disagree at the times of need....Quit being old fashioned, (yes we know its all about the bible..but really??) Live the moment and from this time on... till whenever..... quit living in the old testiment.

Okay... lets take your argument.

in 1948 Israel was RE-established. Coincidentally, it was attacked by multiple arab nations who chose not to accept the UN mandate. Arab residents left their homes. The arabs lost. The Brits screwed up the palestinian mandate.... which was supposed to make a Jewish state and an Arab palestinian state. 78 percent of it was made into the Arab nation of Jordan (formerly trans-jordan), and 22 percent of it was supposed to be Israel. Up until recently, palestinians had Jordanian citizenship.

Israel pulled out of Gaza... no one paid them to do so. Hamas returned the favor once they took control by sending rockets and mortars and suicide bombers. You can understand the frustration of the Israeli people of not wanting to cozy up to Hamas that doesnt renounce violence.

If Israel wanted to "wipe palestine off the map" it's doing a crappy job. First of all, it is transfering food, water, and electricity to Gaza, whose leaders wish to wipe Israel from the map. Second... Israeli Arabs can vote, serve in the government, are not forced to serve in the IDF like the Israeli Jews are. So claims of Apartheid and genocide are ridiculous.

Israel under multiple governments have been trying to negotiate, but Abbas and Erekat seem to have a bad case of Hemmorhoids that dont allow them to sit down for over a month to actually negotiate.

Settlements can be removed. Regardless of where a settlement is, if something is designated as a final border in negotiations... the people are going to move. (see pullout of Gaza [prior to the barrier being built as response to suicide bombings, mortars/rockets, and kidnappings.]) So the palestinian leadership stating that settlements are an obstacle to peace is also ridiculous.

food for thought. the term "palestine" was the name that the roman emperor Hadrian gave the lands of Israel, Judea, and Shomron after the roman conquest. He called it "Syria Palaestina." So back then, even Jews were considered palestinians. This is even prior to the founding of Islam.

My point is that there are two issues holding up negotiations...

1) Hamas not renouncing terror and recognizing Israel's right to exist. And then joining the government with Fatah.

2)Fatah's unwillingness to actually sit down and negotiate, while claiming that movable settlements are an obstacle.

The palestinians may try to bypass negotiations and go straight to the UN. If this happens and they gain a state this way, Israel could also do unilateral actions also.

Not to mention... as soon as the palestinians declare themselves a state, and ONE attack hits Israel... that becomes an attack from one sovereign state to another... and that would most likely mean war.

I really hope they negotiate instead.

I don't think I can ever be convinced that Israel should be recognized as a country. Le shrug.

Based on?

I just don't know. If you were Abbas, and there were bulldozers clearing Palestinian land for Israeli homes right now, could you really sit down and negotiate with the people driving the bulldozers? Stopping all new settlement construction would have to be a pre-condition to sit down to talk. Likewise, the Israelis would be crazy to sit down while mortars are being launched into their neighborhoods.

Besides, do you really expect new Jewish settlers to just get up and move their homes when the government tells them to? Maybe it's happened once or twice, but the government would have some very unhappy citizens on its hands. It has been my impression that the government is too weak to stand up to its own people. Likewise, the US has been too weak to stand up to Israel, but that's another discussion.

Anyway, all these Jewish settlements really bother me. As though Israel hasn't had enough land, it keeps expanding its land by kicking around the Palestinians and nobody stops them. They figure that possession is 90% of the law, so if you sit on the land, you may as well own it. Maybe they're not trying to destroy the idea of a Palestinian state, but they are trying to undermine any claim of Palestinian ownership to that land. Israel has ignored multiple UN resolutions to halt construction and the US backs Israel. It's disgusting politics, having, I think, largely to do with the fact that the Israeli lobby is one of the biggest and most powerful in the US. Heck, the Israelis even bombed one of our ships, killing US soldiers, and we didn't even bat an eye (old history but still). All sides need to play ball :P

Or am I understanding some of this wrong, Archeim? Can someone convince me that Jews living outside the 1967 borders is in any way acceptable? I'd like to hear more opinions from both sides, since all I know is what's in the papers. Speaking of which, here's the latest on the agreement. Many details remain undecided.

I mentioned above (but i dont think i explained it well) that there was an Arab state and a Jewish state to be made from the original Palestinian mandate. 77 percent of the entire mandated land was given to Trans-Jordan (later became Jordan) which is an Arab State. 23 percent of the land was given to Israel, which is a Jewish State. Now in addition to this, another Arab state is to be made within the 23 percent that was considered Israel. I believe there are currently 23 Arab states. 1 Jewish one.

The 67 borders werent borders. They were an Armistice line. Israel gave the Sinai back to Egypt. And yes, Israeli's left their homes, just like they did with Gaza.

The Israel lobby... as formidable as it can be... in the US is nothing compared to the Oil lobby which is prevalant in the UN (and the US to a lesser degree) and OPEC and the majority of Oil is controlled by which group of people?

Another issue with settlements is the fact that borders are to be settled upon negotiations. A lot of property was actually bought from Arabs, coincidentally now the selling of property from an Arab to a Jew is punishable by death over there. In fact, a lot of illegally built Arab properties are either not bulldozed, or the doing so is held up in court because they do not want to enrage the Arab populace. Meanwhile, the same does not apply to Jewish properties, which have not been spared the bulldozer.

You will find the majority of Jewish Israeli citizens would welcome peace and do what is needed.

I'm sure you are familiar with the Goldstone report, as well as the fact that even though Goldstone said he does not believe the conclusions of his report anymore (that Israel intentionally as policy targeted civilians in Gaza) that the UN hasnt retracted it yet.

Abbas has mentioned that there are no Jews allowed to live in his new palestinian state. which in the event that it encompasses Jewish holy cites... it might be a bit of an issue.

In Jordanian control, Jews were barred from Jerusalem and their holy sites. Under Israeli control, Israel gave dominion of the Dome of the rock/Al Aqsa Mosque area to the Waqf.

You must be refering to the USS Liberty. The US government states that it was a mistake in identity. The Israeli government states the same. Conspiracy theorists state otherwise. History has a list of friendly fire incidents longer than i wish to state.

Israel has no guarantees that a palestinian state will be peaceful. Now with the regime change in egypt, many people polled favor repealing the peace treaty... (does that mean they want to give back the Sinai?)

I personally think that Israel is tired of giving away land won in war, or purchased for worthless pieces of paper declaring "peace" from dictators.

The Israeli viewpoint is that borders are to be decided in negotiations. The palestinian viewpoint is that the borders should be decided first before negotiations.

If you are going to decide the borders first, before negotiations, exactly what do you have to negotiate about?

I think Jewish (and Israeli Arab) people would like to stop having to run to the nearest shelter when a siren goes off. So... yes, for the sake of a REAL peace, i think the people would go along with whatever deal Netanyahu makes with the palestinians.

even though the brits screwed up the mandate, and the palestinians should have asked King Abdullah of Jordan for some of their land. (the palestinians were thrown out of Jordan, because they tried to topple the government... and one assassinated Abdullah I.)

Jordan gave up the rights to the "west bank" in 1965. In 1970 (Black September) is when the Jordanians kicked the PLO (Fatah) out of Jordan, after killing a lot of palestinians.

regardless... American me would support giving land based on territorial exchange to the palestinians for a state of their own, if and only if all participants in the govt were committed to maintaining peace.

Again, Fatah has done a great job, and it would be nice of hamas to renounce violence and start building instead of destroying.

Op-Ed by Mahmoud Abbas

PM: Abbas "grossly distorting" documented history.

A March 2010 poll by Tel Aviv University found that 49.5% of Israeli Jewish high school students believe Israeli Arabs should not be entitled to the same rights as Jews in Israel. 56% believe Arabs should not be eligible to the Knesset, the Israeli parliament

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel

This ***isn't going to end until there's a proper genocide and one side leaves the region entirely. There's just too much bad blood over too many generations and neither side has shown a willingness to sincerely negotiate for decades.

I read the part on the wiki post... but what you didnt post was from the article about it on Ha'Aretz

The poll was commissioned last month by Maagar Mochot, an Israeli research institution, under the supervision of Prof. Yitzhak Katz. It took a sampling of 536 Jewish and Arab respondents between the ages of 15-18.

I have a problem with the validity of polls, btw. It took a "random sampling" of 536 Jewish and Arab respondents between 15-18.

Does this involve multiple schools? Because if it just pulled from an ultra orthodox Jewish school... that might make more sense.

It doesnt speak about how many schools were involved in the random sampling, the methodology of the sampling, which streams of Judaism (or Islam, Christianity, etc...) were represented, how many of each stream said what... and in addition... there are only 535 Jews and Arabs who answered. Is it possible that more people were asked but certain views were discarded that didnt meet certain criteria?

I also have difficulty believingin the polls below too... heck, i have difficulty believing ANY polls, and even the Nielsen rating system for determining television show ratings.

I cant see 535 people being appropriate indicators for how a whole country thinks. I'd like to believe that less than 40 percent of Arabs in Israel think that the Holocaust never happened.

If you are going to poll people... poll everyone. Otherwise it's easily skewed and they are wasting our time.


Racism by Israeli-Arabs[edit] Towards Jews[edit] PollsA 2009 PEW poll, which included 527 Israeli Arab respondents, showed that 35% of Israeli Arabs said their opinion of Jews was unfavorable, while 56% said their opinion was favorable (the figures amongst Israeli Jews on their attitude to themselves were 94% favorable; 6% unfavorable).

A 2009 poll found that 40.5% of the Arab citizens of Israel denied the Holocaust, up from 28% in 2006

And if we're going to quote other things...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow's_Pioneers

Yes.

Genocide.