Confederate History Month

Could you guys please stop comparing the Holocaust and Slavery, while they are each atrocities they are very different in scope. Slavery was(is) a violation of a person's civil and human rights usually involving forced labor; the Holocaust was genocide on a massive scale, that encompassed most minorities in Nazi controlled areas. Comparing these two together really is like comparing apples to oranges, they are both fruit but not similar beyond that (sorry both are round and come from trees).

Also, white people- we have no idea what discrimination is like for minorities in this country, if you would like to see what it is like to be stared at 90% of the time when you go to public, or harassed by police for minor violations try this- go to South Africa and live for a while (China, Japan and India also work). When you know what it is like to be marginalized by society, then come back and *** about a white history month.

No, because slavery was basically the same as Holocaust.

You bring them to a place to work, make them work for no money, minimum of food, no medical attention. If you cant use them for work, you kill them, or in Slavery instead sell them. (Yeah in the Holocaust all people who were not able to work were killed right away and it was way higher numbers, but you cant compare Pre-Industrialisation to 1930/40's and trust me, they killed a wife of a worker in Slavery right away if she was too ugly to "use" and too weak to work...)

You take all their belongings before you do so, get rid of their human rights, their names, their family and everything they worked for. Reduce them to a number and in the end you get even rid of that and hand it to a new "person"/number.

I've been taught the WWII and the wrongdoings for 7 years straight in school, visited several places and talked with friend's Grandparents from Auschwitz whose i met and talked to about what happened back then. So we had German Colony history and Slave-history pumped into our heads so we never will forget what our country did to people.

Dont reduce Slavery to labor or anything "simple" like that, cause it isnt, wasnt and never will be.


So why did i write that again.... guess that one sentence just really pissed me off -.-

@Lodo

Using them in such an odd way, I'm not surprised when someone takes offense to my quotes. In the previous cases, the quotes are merely used to point out something either generally accepted, said, politically correct, or terminology I disagree with.

"Heroes(And Heroines)" for example... At this current time, I don't hold anyone to the point of being considered "Heroic." That's not to say they shouldn't be remembered or treated with respect, but "Hero" is an overused word that not only gets thrown around, but starts many an unneeded argument. I don't consider MLK, Jr. a "Hero." Saying that usually sets people into riots of either "You're a racist" or "You have no respect for blah blah blah!"

As for my grandparents, I couldn't tell you any specific dates. I'd take the gamble and say they probably immigrated some time in the WWII era, though.

Onward, I do not believe discrimination is a thing of the past, but the suffering that was endured by a person/family belongs to them, not to a completely unrelated or inexperienced source. The example given is attempting to say that some Blacks act as if they deserve something because of the History of this country, even if they're born into a perfectly wonderful society and given a good education, etc. Many of my experiences have involved the racial line being drawn because some self-righteous black woman thinks I'm some evil entity, merely because I'm a White American. That's not to say everyone I've met is like that. In fact, I remember being younger and asking a black man how he got is hair to 'fro up. He didn't rant or get offended, but instead explained it.

I think that covers most of the reply, too lazy to quote and make a super-reply right now.

Slavery =/= Genocide

Both Horrible unforgivable things, but not the "same", One is death sentence to an entire race, the other is an enslavement of said race. Death =/= Slavery.

They have similarities, very generic, vague similarities, but they are by no means the same or even close.


AGAIN, HORRIBLE THINGS, but not the same, both their own category of catastrophes

Slavery and genocide. Two of humanities nastiest creations.Both are disgusting, but very different.

Just wanted to point out that you have no *** idea what you are talking about.

You do realize that way back when, slaves weren't exactly cheap. Slave owners back then looked at them as an investment. Where there owners that mistreated them badly? Of course there were, but this also isn't 100% across the table.

You seem to think that being a slave somehow means more than "Your someone else's property".

Genocide is in no way, shape or form the same as slavery. That's just asinine and HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE.

Edit: In regards to your "in Slavery, you sell them" line. If you have a slave that can't work how exactly do you think that you are going to be able to sell them? Who would purchase a person for something they can't do?

To a previous poster's remark.

I actually didn't have an opinion on this subject before I formed one. I've probably have only accurately perceived racism just half of a hand full of times in life. Certainly I wasn't qualified enough to feel that it wasn't OK celebrating this. So I wasn't sure what to think.


I read the arguments, the thinking of some of the politicians in the south at that time and formed that opinion. Some really thoughtful people have posted and gave me an even broader way to think of it. In the end I still didn't change my opinion of that fallen government and the entirety of it's ideas.

The Cornerstone Speech to my surprise had many ideas that I agreed with. Unfortunately, I just didn't want to separate slavery from the Confederacy.

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?documentprint


Perhaps I wasn't objective as I should have been.


The post was about me being black and forming an opinion based on the color of my own skin independent of any research at all. The jump was then made to me perhaps sharing the same opinion of some in my community concerning reparations. Poster, you just can't see the color of some ones skin and make assumptions about things.


Lastly, if I held any significance of someone's opinion of me it surly would have lessened as a result of my being stereotyped by said person in that manner.

Could be wrong but I'm pretty sure those are gang up on white males because clearly they are opressing everyone else months

Everyone else's family has a history, too. I don't see how yours qualifies for a national month of remembrance and education and others' don't.

Average life span of a slave was what around 35 years or so? They were generally fed and sheltered and not randomly shot in the head for sport, nor taken to the gas chamber to be killed.

Average life span of a holocaust victim, less than 3 years in a camp, if you were not randomly shot, starved to death, used in medical experiments, or just gassed because of your racial/ethnic/sexual/economic- etc beliefs. (Communists and Labor Union leaders were also sent to labor camps)

Both are bad, but are very different. If you do not see that there are multiple types of atrocities then please go ride your bicycle on the freeway, since it also has wheels you will fit right in with the cars.

Thank you for explaining Tousou. Hero has become an overused word of late, I do feel that we have people in our history that qualify, but if you don't I understand.

Can I personally tell you the pain that is experienced from being a slave, or to have laws in place telling me that I'm not good enough to use the same waiting room that you use? No, I can't. I can say that the the actions of today and in the history of this country have left scars, and these scars can run across generations. If a man were to rape your sister, I'd expect you to be angry about it, not because you suffered the indescribable pain that she experienced, but because it was an offense to your blood. Blacks have come a long way since Emancipation, and to be honest in relatively short amount of time. I sometimes forget how weird my family was in relation to others when it comes to age. Personally I'm 28, my father was 75 when he passed a few years back, his grandmother who helped raise him was born into slavery, and had memories of it. I never knew my great-grandmother, or even my grandparents to be honest, but I was filled with their stories growing up- of slavery, Reconstruction, Jim Crow, and the Civil Rights movement so that I would never forget where I came from, and why the fight was so important.



You're right Frobeus, slaves were generally not cheap, as with any farm "animal", there were varying degrees of worth, some slaves fetched top dollar, others were at bargain prices, depending on their usefulness. Slaves being viewed as an investment was also situational. A big, young, and strong "buck" would be considered an investment, because not only would he likely be around to work for a while, unless he got "uppity", but his children would also likely be be big and strong, so he was used for breeding purposes. The same would go with women with big hips, because it was likely she would be able to have a lot of children. That's not to say that smaller men and slighter women, or even older men and women weren't sold as well, but for a lower price because work could always be found for them, whether it be pruning, taking care of menial labor, or working in the house. And a better way to put your last statement would be to say "Were their slave owners who treated their slaves well? Of course there were, but this wasn't 100% across the table." Owners and overseers who raped their slave women were more of the rule than the exception. No education, whipping, maiming, and murder were necessary to limit escape attempts and general insurrection. In no way think that you can compare the masters views on slaves as to a pedigree horse or dog, where the lineage can be traced back hundreds of years, if any records were kept on slaves, they were kept in livestock manuals. That's why it's near impossible to trace back black family trees beyond emancipation, and why stories like Roots is so rare (and even that lineage is now considered false/inaccurate) There is nothing in slavery to romanticize.



Hitler's genocide contained slavery, albeit with differences, the huge difference being of course that he wanted to rid the world of the undesirable races, but he used those that he could, he was fighting a war on two fronts. Hitler and the SS worked over a short time period, so that needs to be taken into an account as well. He was dealing with an educated populace, so other tactics were necessary to maintain order in the camps. Secrecy played an integral role, because for one, the German people could not find out what was going on for fear of losing power, and those targeted couldn't find out or there would be mass uprisings, most thought they they were being taken to another ghetto. Of course there were rumors as to what was going on, but very few considered them to be serious, even upon entry to the camps, that's why the gassing chambers were made to look like showers. Granted up to 1 million were dead (mostly in the pogroms)by the time the Final Solution was ordered, but the labor camps didn't truly turn into death camps until then; and the murders were escalated as it became more and more apparent that Hitler could and eventually would lose the war. But the camps were originally intended as slave labor camps until the Final Solution was enacted(though one might argue how far in advance that it was planned), he just had a far greater disregard for those who could not work; he did not have to pay for them, as he conquered more countries he would gain more laborers. Don't forget what is on the gates leading to Auschwitz, "Arbeit macht frei".

A lot of people seem to forget that w/ slavery there was rape, lynchings, the hunting of escapees, and the breaking up of families. So yes in a sense you CAN compare it to the Holocaust. However, they were not on the same scale but they did share similar atrocities.

Take note that while established nowhere near the occurrence of slavery in the U.S., the ICC defines some of the crimes against humanity as rape, enslavement, and extermination. Something to consider when some say that the "types" of atrocities committed during these events are not comparable.

Again they may not be similar in scale but there was rape, enslavement, and extermination/murder during the U.S. period of slavery and the Holocaust.

This is news.

Sidenote:

The way I see the two:

Hitler just straight-up killed people.
Slavery was working people to their death, which isn't any better.

@ Lodo; I took the time to read what you had to say, it was well thought out and brings out the horrors of slavery very well. I applaud the candor in your writing in the statement that slavery as a memory in your family is only three generations removed. Yes slavery was horrible, and inexcusable it is something that Americans should feel ashamed about as being part of their history. On these facts we are absolutely in agreement.

However, being Jewish, the holocaust is remembered by my family, who fought in World War II (albeit in the pacific theater), and I have been to Dachau and seem the ovens for myself.This is one generation removed. The Holocaust is remembered so well because genocide is still a part of the modern world, we need only look back ten years to the Bosnian conflicts to see genocide today. With the exception of Mauritania in Africa,and sexual slavery (that effects all races); slavery is no longer a part of the world today, genocide still haunts us.
The deprivation of liberty, rape, maiming, break up of families and other maladies inflicted upon slaves is horrible, but in many instances not any more horrible than what is performed by governments against their own people in countries such as Burma, Sierra Leone, Liberia, The Congo,(the list goes on). Genocide is the systematic destruction of an entire people. Even in 1850s American there were free blacks in the south-rare but it happened; there were no Jews, Gypsies, Communists, Homosexuals, Mentally HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE that were left in Nazi Germany- they were wiped out, though no more than vermin. 6 million Jews died in forced labor camps, up to 20 million total died in those camps. While we will never know the number of people murdered during the time of slavery- all three hundred and fifty years of it, it still pales in comparison with this whole sale destruction wrought upon every member of a ethnic group, or various other minorities in a short period of time, less than 10 years.

People compare these two events because both are stains on human history, but it is a ridiculous comparison, much like saying riding a bicycle is the same as riding a motorcycle because both only have two wheels. These are two separate and distinct events, in no way comparable. Slavery has happened through out history to many other cultures besides blacks in the US; the first slaves in the US were the native people who were almost wiped out- if not totally wiped out. Genocide has happened to many people besides the Jews in the holocaust, but not nearly to the same level. The Khymer Rouge killed 1 million people in a country of 5 million, the genocide in Rwanda is estimated at over 1.4 million dead. The slave population in the US in 1860 is estimated around 3.9 million, still millions less than victims of the Holocaust.

Stop comparing the two, there is no comparison to be made. Yes I understand this sounds hypocritical.

Comparing US slavery to the actions of the Axis in WWII doesn't make your plight rise in magnitude on the "WTF" scale, Lobo. So just stop it.

psssh you know half of the black people now and days have the family name smith, john, white, black, brown, etc from when slavery was abolished they had no family name so they took their slave master's last name. Ironic imo.