Revamping WHM Cure Gear

Im not tryign to turn this into a pissing contest or saying WHM is better than or worse than SHC or RDM.

My whole point is if you can get by without using cure 5 at all you mind as well be on a different job. You added many pros that WHM has vs SCH and RDM but no cons.

As I said I dont wanna turn this into a pissing contest but 1 pro big from each is refresh from RDM and assension from SCH.

If you are fighting something that doesnt need cure 5 to get by I dount youll miss other whm specific spells like shellra5 and regen 3.

To recap Im not downtalking whm at all I just think if you arent using cure 5 you are playing the job wrong, or the mob doesnt need WHM's superior healing power and should be main healed by something else.

1. A fully merited WHM's Regen III restores 560 hp from 64 mp (58 mp with Light Arts). Compare that to 125 hp from 15 mp for Regen from RDM or SCH. Btw, 5 hp every 3 seconds doesn't save anyone at endgame levels.

3. See No.5

4. Unless something has changed in the last 7 months, SCH has to stack -enmity at the expense of other useful stats where WHM doesn't. Every WHM wears Blessed for a reason. I didn't even mention Fast Cast.

5. What if you need your RDM to stun? /SMN hasn't been a viable sub for any job since the PLD enmity patch (unless you want to pull on a mage job for some reason). AFAIK, WHM subbed to SCH merely saves them a charge, while BLM sub can boost magic damage. Still doesn't give SCH haste or Regen III or Pro/Shell V. BLM sub allows a WHM to be nearly as efficient as SCH sub while still being able to work into a Slow order at HNM. BRDs sub BLM for the exact same reason (for elegy).

BTW, I never said either job couldn't use whatever sub it wanted to. You just lose flexibility without WHM.

6. Protectra V is outstanding in situations where you can expect to get hit physically, which is most situations. Since you clearly don't HNM at all, I give you Faust's Typhoon as an example. If you think Shellra V gets few uses, you are just plain ignorant. It's only the most useful magic protection buff in the entire game. I guess you never fight magic using mobs.

7. See 6. When you can guess right on barspell and eat 89 damage from Kirin's Astral Flow (w/o SS), let me know.

The only thing you have done is prove how ignorant you are.

Uh where is this quick math capped shell 5(27.34% mitigation) would reduce a 6750 damage spell by 1845 that seems a little higher than 350 from stoneskin.

Yes, that's assuming the target doesn't have any Shell up.

What I'm saying is the difference between Shell IV and Shellra V with capped merits, is a 5.5% increase in damage mitigation.

the fact that shellra 5 lasts 30 mins is kind of a big deal too lol

There really are no cons. RDM and SCH can do it, but WHM is more efficient, which is what I was trying to point out. RDM and SCH gain the ability to refresh themselves at the expense of pure curing efficiency (on a HP cured:MP spent basis). Basically, I am saying that you lose more than just raw curing power: IMHO, WHMs are even better at pure damage mitigation than they are at outright curing. Even if you disagree on Cure V, I don't think anyone outside a SCH fanboy (see Enternius) would disagree with me on WHM's ability to mitigate damage. Any HP not taken as damage is effectively HP you have cured for ZERO MP cost.

1. Ok so you got me.

2. Yeah but you should have a rdm there anyways for refresh.

3. The do if they /sch. Which is an awesome subjob for rdm.

4. This one really makes me laugh. Rdm/sch laughs at your recast. Completely nekkid with just haste and light arts I'm -35% recast. Getting another 15% for the cap is pretty easy. Ok so they aren't exactly added so it would be a tad bit more. But fast cast still beats your recast and cast times are about the same. And sch can afford to burn strats on celerity. Both jobs can equip alot more than the cap for -emnity. And sch just shakes its head at your -emnity and goes past the cap.

5. This point doesn't even make sense. Whm is generally locked in /sch cause of it's efficiency. Rdm is whatever subjob you need it to be. support sch is generallly /rdm for good reasons.

6. It's not that big a difference then 4.

7. Assuming your whm has relic pants then yes. Though really being a resist set that extra bit might not do a damn thing if the tanks have enough resist anyways. And whm can't phalanx. OR stoneskinga. Or refresh. Or curaga from an outside pt/allaince. Or do dmg when you can. Or debuff all that well. In the end unless you already have a rdm AND a sch chances are one of those 2 will be more useful.
1. Again like I said as long as you aren't in situations where your afraid your tanks will get one shotted. IE were you can easily not overheal a butt ton

2. Cure for means ***. Hp for hp is all that matters. The tank doesn't survive just cause you throw said number of cures his way. He survives cause you cure so much hp. By your logic cure 1 is crazy good for hate!!! And assuming you cure III for about 250 it's about 1/2 the CE and 1.5 the VE. Or 15% more total hate for less than 1/3 hp cured assuming same gearing. Hell even if you over cure by alot each time and your 800+ cure V is only curing 500 the difference in hate is still huge)

3. Again like I said as long as you are afraid your tank is gunna eat dirt if you don't keep him topped off.

Not gonna touch most of it but P5 is never outstanding. There's a reason that plds don't gear for vit/def nowadays. And even if def were at all useful, it's highly unlikely that the +5~13 extra def from P5 vs 4 is going to help you.

Dasva, by your logic, a tank doesn't need to cure himself. I disagree on this. This is why I don't see things as HP for HP. If I could get away with never curing a tank, I would. But I usually see tanks being a Cure III shy of full when they Cure IV themselves from yellow/orange. I can agree to disagree here as I don't think you are wrong at all, and we seem to agree otherwise on this point.

If the tank takes ~60 less damage over a 30 minute period, then Protectra V is better. Even so, "outstanding" was probably the wrong word to use. I am no PLD, but I assumed they prioritized recast and enmity nowadays.

I'm going to go ahead and chalk this up as a "no im better because I said so" sort of thing, because you clearly aren't thinking.

Going on 380 Cure IV, which is the soft cap, give or take.

WHM: Light Staff/Noble's Tunic/MKD head/Medicine Ring/Healing Feather/Roundel Earring.

10+10+3+10+15+5=53% cure potency. 380*1.53=581 HP for 88 MP. 581/88=6.6 HP/MP for WHM.

SCH: Assuming no cure potency gear is used (Not that SCH can't get any, but just for the purposes of this example, assume he forgot his light staff etc)

0% cure potency. +Rapture for 50%. 380*1.5=570 HP for 74 HP. (88 base, -10% for Light arts, -7% average for Conserve MP) 570/74=7.7 HP/MP for SCH

To reiterate, even a naked SCH, with no cure potency gear or anything, will still be more MP-efficient than a fully-geared WHM in ideal situations with ring latent and Healing Feather active. And as you add more gear for SCH, WHM loses even more. And on top of that, SCH has 30% fast cast to all spells.

SCH cures faster, more often, and at a better efficiency than WHM.



Anything else you'd like to argue?



Edit: And WHM can force Light weather too for an added 10% cure potency.

Agreed Protectra V's 5 ~ 13 defense over Pro IV is a waste of merits. Shellra V 10.5% ~ 24.84% improvement over Shellra IV however is a different story.

I'm with Temeraire here. However, I do still keep my Cure V's as high as I possibly can. There are times where you can't be waiting for the PLD to cure themselves or anyone else to cure the PLD. I do mainly stick with Cure 3. And I use Regen 3 when I can. But there are times where casting Regen 3 in a sticky situation takes too long. And where Cure 3 just isn't recovering enough HP fast enough.

Take what just happened in Einherjar for example. We have an excellent SCH. Best one I've seen yet, and I don't even know them very well to play favorites.

We were fighting Logi's (bombs). She was keeping Stoneksin, Shell IV, and Phalanx (though this doesn't protect against magic attacks) up, as well as other normal duties. I was keeping Shellra V on and Barfira (115 resist) up, + Afflatus Solace.

No one in my party took more than 200 damage. People in her party took no more than 500 damage.

My Cure 3's do 267 normally (no obi, no med ring). Hers were doing less, though I'm not sure on exact numbers. She had only Sublimation and a BRD for refresh. I had the same. As SCH main she was getting back more through Sublimation than I was. She had the better BRD. And I was still managing MP better than she was, while keeping everyone in my party alive.

Hello nin/drk tanking. Also pay attention to your plds cast. If you see thems topping themselves ZOMG cancel cure. Either way a Cure V is the same total emnity as curing for 216 hp otherwise. If you can't figure out how to cure V so you get more than that you really need to rethink your role as main healer.

Yes it does. Phalanx stops all sources of dmg (well not DOTs). It even goes so far as to apply itself to enspell and the melee hit seperately. Or each hit of a multi ws/tp move. Phalanx is how people get dmg down to 0 against those magic dmg mobs after getting the best resist possible

Phalanx not only protects against magic attacks but it also protects against almost every other type of damage you can think of.

Phalanx not only protects against magic attacks but it also protects against almost every other type of damage you can think of.

I hate you Dasva

Edit: ops quoted myself instead of editing, what a douche.

Quoting Dasva
1. Ok so you got me.

2. Yeah but you should have a rdm there anyways for refresh.

3. The do if they /sch. Which is an awesome subjob for rdm.

4. This one really makes me laugh. Rdm/sch laughs at your recast. Completely nekkid with just haste and light arts I'm -35% recast. Getting another 15% for the cap is pretty easy. Ok so they aren't exactly added so it would be a tad bit more. But fast cast still beats your recast and cast times are about the same. And sch can afford to burn strats on celerity. Both jobs can equip alot more than the cap for -emnity. And sch just shakes its head at your -emnity and goes past the cap.

5. This point doesn't even make sense. Whm is generally locked in /sch cause of it's efficiency. Rdm is whatever subjob you need it to be. support sch is generallly /rdm for good reasons.

6. It's not that big a difference then 4.

7. Assuming your whm has relic pants then yes. Though really being a resist set that extra bit might not do a damn thing if the tanks have enough resist anyways. And whm can't phalanx. OR stoneskinga. Or refresh. Or curaga from an outside pt/allaince. Or do dmg when you can. Or debuff all that well. In the end unless you already have a rdm AND a sch chances are one of those 2 will be more useful.

3. Yes, but there are many many situations where you want stun (for situations where BLM and DRK are not ideal) or elemental seal (for mobs that have very high resist) or even shadows (for kiting adds) on RDM, which means no SCH. There are few situations where you want WHM as anything but SCH sub.

4. Again, RDM can end up not going /SCH to an event a lot easier than WHM can, and WHM is -25% fast cast. Plus, WHM naturally wears haste gear much of the time. SCH also doesn't wear as much -enmity full time, and builds enmity each time it burns a charge.

5. RDM being whatever subjob you need it to be was my point. Sorry if I was unclear on this, but I was referring to the alliance as a whole. If you need a main heal RDM, its generally going to be locked into /WHM or /SCH for -na spells (or /WHM if you need Erase), which means no /DRK, /BLM, or /NIN. I absolutely love RDM for its versatility.

6. On endgame mobs that put out thousands of points of damage, the difference is larger than the actual HP saved. Cures not cast = enmity not generated away from tanks = MP and time saved overall

7. WHM is still a more efficient damage mitigator, as all those abilities cost more MP than what WHM uses. I'd rather see my RDM and SCH doing damage and debuffing. I still can't really argue this point, as RDM and SCH can afford to trade more MP for their damage mitigation better than WHM can.

Then, I stand corrected.

Rapture is limited to 2 uses in 1 minute, as well. I can Cure 3 for more than Rapture + a SCH's normal Cure 3 is able in the time it takes for Rapture to be up again.

3. More importantly the whole reason you want those other subjobs is so you can be even more useful on that fight. Which further makes bring rdm more useful to bring. Can't bring a blm or drk and need stun!?! Yeah I'll take my rdm/drk over your whm/drk. Need to ES slow II. Bring the rdm/blm. While you say you are stuck on /sch lol. Keeping your usefulness for that fight the same.

4. whm is naturally 0% fast cast. You might want to read up but fast cast is a rdm and blu only job trait. Oh and cure clogs aren't fast cast. They only lower casting time. Only fast cast and haste lower recast and sch stuff. Strats cost almost no emnity. If you want to get fussy it is equivalent to about the total amount of 15hp cured though it's all decaying. And that's what schs you know do. Not what they can or should do. Check out Kanicans article on emnity and what sch can and should do with emnity. Oh and no one should wear lots of -emnity full time. It does nothing unless you are doing something. -dmg and refresh ftw!

5. Except rdm can use those subjobs and mainheal AND maintain it's own mp and refresh/haste others at the same time. And again by using those subjobs they are just adding more usefulness. Not less. While if you had a whm instead you'd be like damn I sure wish we could ES slow II this mob /sigh. Sure if you already have enough rdms and/schs ok throw in a whm. Need to do lots of curing for next to no emnity throw in a max potency Cure Ving whm. Otherwise sch will beat your pants off.

6. Compare to 4, You'd be lucky to save as much from P5 in an hour long fight as you would from phalanx on a guy that took 3 hits lol. And not just cause most hits will be blinked. Both sch and rdm can get 29 phalanxs on the tank. The difference between shell V and shell IV is 14/256 dmg reduction. Meaning to reduce as much magic dmg as those phalanxs those magic dmg attacks will have to average at least 530 dmg after resist and MDB. Well that is assuming you fully merit shellra V

7. Sure rdms mp is better spent buffing and debuffing and maybe dealing some dmg if they are /sch or stunning /drk or whatever. Sure schs will probably do more nuking. But adding another rdm or sch would still do that for the other rdm or sch lol.

Quoting Enternius (my quote button quick working for some reason...maybe I'm over the limit?):

I'm going to go ahead and chalk this up as a "no im better because I said so" sort of thing, because you clearly aren't thinking.

Going on 380 Cure IV, which is the soft cap, give or take.

WHM: Light Staff/Noble's Tunic/MKD head/Medicine Ring/Healing Feather/Roundel Earring.

10+10+3+10+15+5=53% cure potency. 380*1.53=581 HP for 88 MP. 581/88=6.6 HP/MP for WHM.

SCH: Assuming no cure potency gear is used (Not that SCH can't get any, but just for the purposes of this example, assume he forgot his light staff etc)

0% cure potency. +Rapture for 50%. 380*1.5=570 HP for 74 HP. (88 base, -10% for Light arts, -7% average for Conserve MP) 570/74=7.7 HP/MP for SCH

To reiterate, even a naked SCH, with no cure potency gear or anything, will still be more MP-efficient than a fully-geared WHM in ideal situations with ring latent and Healing Feather active. And as you add more gear for SCH, WHM loses even more. And on top of that, SCH has 30% fast cast to all spells.

SCH cures faster, more often, and at a better efficiency than WHM.



Anything else you'd like to argue?



Edit: And WHM can force Light weather too for an added 10% cure potency.

...except no self-respecting WHM ever uses Cure IV.

...and almost every WHM worth his/her Noble's Tunic uses /SCH.

To take the second point first:

Cure Clogs, which WHMs should be using in a macro with Blessed feet, are 15% cure cast reduction by themselves. WHM can also choose to merit cure cast time for 20% more cure cast. I won't even count Loquacious Earring since SCH can actually use that. That's 35%...how is 30% faster? This doesn't even count a WHM's inherent advantage in recast over SCH (Haste cancels pure fast cast bonus of 30%, plus gear bonuses).

/SCH sub also gives WHM -10% and -7%, for the same MP cost.

Now for the second Point:

Regen III: 560hp for 58 mp = 9.7 hp per mp
Cure V ***FORMULA*** h = floor(((3*(MND + Healing Magic/5) + VIT) / 4/3) + 330) + Equipment bonus) + Day bonus + Weather bonus) ***FORMULA***: Assuming 110 MND and 80 VIT from gear (can go higher) plus weather bonus but not day bonus plus equipment bonus: potential of 1200+

Even just using 1000 hp as a base with 112 as average MP cost = 8.9 hp per mp spent

SCH cures slower, less often, and at less efficiency than WHM.

Enternius, you can't even win on paper.

If you want to go pure hp cure per mp spent for cure spells blu/sch wins hands down.

Dasva,

1. I've never seen a RDM kiting adds away from an alliance be able to main heal. Nor have I ever seen one on stun duty be able to main heal the whole fight.

2. More useful in one respect, less useful in another (i.e. you don't get the benefits of the subjobs you left in your MH).

3. I know WHM doesn't get Fast Cast. That was a mistake on my part. I had something else typed, and managed to erase most of it...

4. WHM can ES Slow (not II) a mob at the price of Light Arts, Dispel, and Aspir. Just like RDM can ES at the price of -na spells, Divine Seal, and Erase. Or at the price of -na spells and Light Arts.

5. -enmity does nothing unless you are doing something? What a revelation.

6. Things that add more enmity:

using charges > not using charges
casting more often > not casting as often
having to cure more often > not needing to cure as often
casting with less -enmity > casting with more -enmity

7. I know you've read previous posts...therefore you know I don't use heavy -enmity setups. My point was that WHM normally has more -enmity on gear even when working away from -enmity setups. This could have changed for SCH in the last 7 months, but I don't think it has for RDM. I realize all three could prioritize -enmity and hit the cap easily.

8. Using a formula of MP cost + enmity generated + HP healed frequently nets better results for Cure III in many situations (the "over 650 hp" idea I used earlier). If you can get full results from Cure V, its better of course. Doesn't make WHM redundant if the WHM can bring about situations where Cure III wins more often than Cure V does by himself. I already agreed to disagree over this. I know my formula loses on paper, but like I postulated, it doesn't lose in real situations where keeping people alive trumps paper calculations. I think we even agree on this.

9. If you are talking about dynamis or limbus or a handful of other events, then I pretty much agree that WHM is redundant in most cases. There's nothing a WHM is going to do there that other jobs can't do, aside from Regen III on melee.

This is actually one of the main events I base my observations off of. In my experience, a good WHM simply uses less MP for a given result, whatever the paper calculations say. I've been in tier 3 Einherjar with SCH/RDMs who can keep their entire PT alive right through to zerg time on the stage boss. The difference has been that I still had MP to cure my PT during the zerg. I have always suspected it was a combination of more effective cures and the best pro/shell working with a strong haste build (for recast, so I can get through my regen/haste cycle faster).

I've also never seen a whm kite adds away period. I have however been on stun duty. Like max -recast stunning every 22 sec. Or waiting for certain moves and still healed the whole. At best I had another rdm or a sch there helping me.

Casting more often does not mean more emnity. Emnity is based on what you case and in the case of curing and dmg potency. And again generally speaking phalanx will reduced dmg way more than P5 or S5 combines. And schs tranquility will reduce emnity just as much by itself as all the gear in the world on any other job.

Difference between 39% and 25% slow is pretty large.

If I had more dedicated healing I'd probably get more -emnity to cast in as a rdm. But I got alot of sets as is. As is I use about -12 well 15 if you count merits on any of my spells that potency doesn't matter or doesn't matter much. Hell counting merits 10 of that is full time. That's me not trying.

Real situations huh? Depends on the situations. Most tanks I know in most situations aren't so feeble that being 400 hp from there max puts them in danger of being 1 hit. More importantly if he is taking dmg that fast chances are he is down a bit more anyways lol. And this includes alot of nin/drks with there paper like defense. And again your math is whack. 216 hp cured is the same total emnity as a cure V. 650 is litterally 3 times the total emnity of cure V. In case you need a source http://kanican.livejournal.com/30142.html

It's not about my math here. It's usually about letting a tank cure himself for me. About letting him build hate faster than I do.

If my math is correct, a SCH is using Tranquility on one spell every 30 seconds and that is if he is not using his charges for anything else.

"Plan for the best, prepare for the worst." <---don't ever let a tank fall below whatever amount of damage you know a mob can put out is how I interpret this as WHM. I think I did something like 14 Khimairas in a row without seeing Fulmination (most on SMN, I admit). I still wouldn't want a tank below 1100 hp, because that's the most I've seen it do to a tank. 99.9% of the time, he isn't going to be one hit, but I'd be absolutely mortified if that .1% of the time happened purely because I left out a single cure III.

-12 from gear is around what I see most RDMs in. WHMs get 57 (68) mp, 16 (19) MND, 10% (13%) haste, and -12 (-15) enm from just three pieces of Blessed (HQ). That opens up a lot of slots to mix and match for an optimum combination of those stats, plus others (like cure potency).

Granted, you can beat any one (well most) of those stats in the same slot on RDM and SCH, but to have 3 of curing's primary stats boosted that much in just three slots without sacrificing something else is pretty amazing to me, and I think its a huge advantage for WHM. Its a variable that gets left out sometimes.

39% to 25% is large...25% to 0% is larger. WHM slow is usually just to bridge the gap between Elemental Seal Timers.

1 Pro/Shell V every 30 minutes combined with low-hate Regen III and cures is typically fewer casts than Phalanx and stoneskin plus less efficient cures. Seems to be quite a bit fewer to me. Even so, neither job seems to be in danger most of the time from casting too much unless the caster is inexperienced, so this is more academic than anything (since experience means more than number of casts seems to). We also seem to be dancing around more enmity from smaller cures vs. more enmity from more mitigating buffs cast (i.e. the WHM might have the luxury).

I've done 1 WHM and 1 RDM in half ally setups on all 3 CoP Kings and Tiamat. In each case, I was glad for the RDM doing his job so I could be more effective at mine. I honestly felt like he reciprocated lol.

Rate ups for thought provoking posts btw.

You should look into ! MND+7!
(If not the Selenian Cap, which can be augmented for Cure Potency +3% Fast Cast+2% MND+6)