How Much Would We Really Know About FFXI...
How much would we really know about FFXI...
In the same respect though, I know console players that don't own a PC. Mhmm, stone age right? But those people would also be at a disadvantage to the people who own multiple PCs. I don't think there is a way to "ensure" a level playing field.
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HOLY ***IT'S A VIDEOGAME OMGGGGGGGGGGGGG. Get over it, man, jesus LoL!!!
If you want to use windower and get it's benefits; use it
If you dont want to use windower and don't get it's benefits; don't use it
^same with BG/KI/FFXIwiki etc. Let each player choose how they want to play and stop your Q_Qing about it already.
If you want to use windower and get it's benefits; use it
If you dont want to use windower and don't get it's benefits; don't use it
^same with BG/KI/FFXIwiki etc. Let each player choose how they want to play and stop your Q_Qing about it already.
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Thing is, he's not QQing ... He's stating facts and asking for opinions.
"Where would we be without third party apps?" (paraphrased)
"Haven't we all benefitted from reverse-engineering and app usage?" (again, paraphrased).
Valid questions, not "ZOMG WINDOWER BAD!" statements.
"Where would we be without third party apps?" (paraphrased)
"Haven't we all benefitted from reverse-engineering and app usage?" (again, paraphrased).
Valid questions, not "ZOMG WINDOWER BAD!" statements.
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@post waaay back addressing AV, .dat mining, and intent of topic:
I don't know, I think there is roughly equal benefit between going with and without general 3rd party tools - but we don't have a 3rd-party-free version of FFXI to compare with. New update items' values would have been different until quest rewards/item synthesis recipes/special drops became widespread knowledge, and I can't say which individuals this would benefit more, which items' production would have been monopolized for how long, or which item markets would still be alive now and which ones wouldn't have ever come to light. To me this is somewhat like arguing that the FFXI of "holy crap, RMT and gil everywhere" is better or worse than "holy crap, you guys are selling this item for less than NPC buy price, stop undercutting" - imo it's mostly just different.
The faster AV legitimately goes down, the faster there is one less ultimate puzzle to figure out - no comment on whether that's really good or not.
Some of the third-party assistance is comparable to beating games with different sources of help. Bots are kind of like watching someone else play a speed run or downloading someone else's saved files, and being the one doing the .dat mining seems like wanting to play something like Silent Hill on difficult puzzle difficulty, but with a walkthrough or from picking at the game data. Parsers might be like knowing how much more efficient throwing toasters is over the awesome shotgun on certain monsters without being bothered to count how many hits they take over how much time, and this site is like being able to see what items you have left without opening your menu... or something. Wikis and other help sites are walkthroughs too, but sort of like UHS-hints that elaborate on game-provided hints, for the most part (or relay information from the .dat miner, parser, etc.) - depending on how heavily the player uses them.
Pfft, I suck at similes.
On one hand, it's more understandable since there's actually competition with other players (ego factor~) and the game still progresses when you're not playing, but on the other hand, you're not going to be banned from finishing FFVII if you W-Item a few dozen Megalixirs.
My honest opinion is that I don't care so long as my account doesn't get banned, though.
I don't know, I think there is roughly equal benefit between going with and without general 3rd party tools - but we don't have a 3rd-party-free version of FFXI to compare with. New update items' values would have been different until quest rewards/item synthesis recipes/special drops became widespread knowledge, and I can't say which individuals this would benefit more, which items' production would have been monopolized for how long, or which item markets would still be alive now and which ones wouldn't have ever come to light. To me this is somewhat like arguing that the FFXI of "holy crap, RMT and gil everywhere" is better or worse than "holy crap, you guys are selling this item for less than NPC buy price, stop undercutting" - imo it's mostly just different.
The faster AV legitimately goes down, the faster there is one less ultimate puzzle to figure out - no comment on whether that's really good or not.
Some of the third-party assistance is comparable to beating games with different sources of help. Bots are kind of like watching someone else play a speed run or downloading someone else's saved files, and being the one doing the .dat mining seems like wanting to play something like Silent Hill on difficult puzzle difficulty, but with a walkthrough or from picking at the game data. Parsers might be like knowing how much more efficient throwing toasters is over the awesome shotgun on certain monsters without being bothered to count how many hits they take over how much time, and this site is like being able to see what items you have left without opening your menu... or something. Wikis and other help sites are walkthroughs too, but sort of like UHS-hints that elaborate on game-provided hints, for the most part (or relay information from the .dat miner, parser, etc.) - depending on how heavily the player uses them.
Pfft, I suck at similes.
On one hand, it's more understandable since there's actually competition with other players (ego factor~) and the game still progresses when you're not playing, but on the other hand, you're not going to be banned from finishing FFVII if you W-Item a few dozen Megalixirs.
My honest opinion is that I don't care so long as my account doesn't get banned, though.
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What do those that complain about 3rd party tools gain from talking about it? Trying to persuade thousands of people to conform to their standards; Thousands who probably don't even look at these forums? lol
Anyways I'm curious to know: have any of you guys who do salvage who are against 3rd parties tools came across a bit of information that doesn't use third parties tools? I know Neosutra's data uses those tools. I mean he provides add-ons for windower to make salvage easier. And you expect me to believe such information like the data on cor rolls weren't from a user that doesn't use windower or any other tools? Take Fighter's Roll for instance. How could you figure out the % of DA w/ just pen and paper? I mean it's possible but I bet it's a lot of work to do so.
Anyways I'm curious to know: have any of you guys who do salvage who are against 3rd parties tools came across a bit of information that doesn't use third parties tools? I know Neosutra's data uses those tools. I mean he provides add-ons for windower to make salvage easier. And you expect me to believe such information like the data on cor rolls weren't from a user that doesn't use windower or any other tools? Take Fighter's Roll for instance. How could you figure out the % of DA w/ just pen and paper? I mean it's possible but I bet it's a lot of work to do so.
Chupa! I hate you!
~that is all~ ^_~
~that is all~ ^_~
Well maybe not all..
As to what Sovereign was saying... I believe his utterly pure point is how illogical the non-third party toolers... are when 'some' are so highly against the idea but fail to acknowledge that it has indirectly helped them(forced on them?..).
Though it's not exactly the same(because third pt tools are against the rules)... But consider where a third world country would be if they weren't given modern day knowledge or assistance beyond what their country is capable of doing on their own. The point.. which Sovereign said, and much like my example is that without this 'help' a lot of where we are today wouldn't be the same. Ya, I agree that getting to this point is possible without the use of these programs, but!, its highly doubtful that we would have reached it this fast(if you consider this fast..) without them.
Love it, or
Hate it,
It is what it is.
As to what Sovereign was saying... I believe his utterly pure point is how illogical the non-third party toolers... are when 'some' are so highly against the idea but fail to acknowledge that it has indirectly helped them(forced on them?..).
Though it's not exactly the same(because third pt tools are against the rules)... But consider where a third world country would be if they weren't given modern day knowledge or assistance beyond what their country is capable of doing on their own. The point.. which Sovereign said, and much like my example is that without this 'help' a lot of where we are today wouldn't be the same. Ya, I agree that getting to this point is possible without the use of these programs, but!, its highly doubtful that we would have reached it this fast(if you consider this fast..) without them.
Love it, or
Hate it,
It is what it is.
Vendi! how dare you come in here and make valid points while yelling at me! Also, Merry Belated Christmas and where have you been?!
I've been around~
Been creeping Ethereal's Website... I never see any pics of you! wtf.
So I want to see one of you randomly humping Zhan or something. You know.. like only a Tarutaru can do. XD
Been creeping Ethereal's Website... I never see any pics of you! wtf.
So I want to see one of you randomly humping Zhan or something. You know.. like only a Tarutaru can do. XD
Alexander.Vivicide said:
Everyone either uses third party tools or has reaped the benefits of someone else using third party tools. Third party tools are the best thing that ever happened to this game.
Parsers make people better players.
Windower takes the minor annoyances out of the game.
APRadar stops you from dieing while running from a mob.
Anyone who says these aren't good things can't use them and is just jealous.
Parsers make people better players.
Windower takes the minor annoyances out of the game.
APRadar stops you from dieing while running from a mob.
Anyone who says these aren't good things can't use them and is just jealous.
The 2 bolded statements above is where I take my issue with some 3rd party programs. Parsers lead to such cookie cutter set-ups of everybody using the same equip and getting the same merits. It strokes the ego's of those who just HAVE to be the very best, like no-one every was. (Not to mention it lowers the invite rates of other jobs since they just can't compare in the parses)
The APRadar program? Sounds like you are just a lazy player. Do you need some program to tell you how to avoid aggro, or is there some function it serves. Not to mention, isn't this the same program that lets you cheat the hagun ENM by removing the random factor of pops, along with a huge advantage to finding mog tablets?
Back to the OP, I don't really get why we need to know all of what 3rd party programs have taught us. Trial and error would lead to quite a bit of information. There wouldnt' be so much number-crunching on everything and would retain some seeming randomness in the game. (Disclaimer: I prefer to not know how everything works. I play games to turn my brain off, not on)
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Quote:
Parsers make people better players.
Depends on what's your definition of "better". I used to parse, then I stopped. I decided it wasn't worth it, being so anal over "improvements" that are insignificant.
I understand some people have some gaping void in their psyche that they have to have some constant feedback of "being the best", or "having the best", but for me, it's meh. Whatever; good enough is fine with me.
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More towards the original OP, you talk about Kaeko reverse engineering the enmity system, but I'm pretty sure the rules against reverse engineering don't really apply to what he did. They're more directed towards people who actually try and decompile and reverse engineer the code rather than trying to figure out stuff by observation.
As for 3rd party stuff, I think most stuff still would have been figured out, just without as much numerical precision. Knowing approx. where to stand as opposed to standing 50' away, knowing GOH or Fulm goes off at a certain letter in the mob name as opposed to an exact percentage. All those things were still discovered by observation first, 3rd party stuff just gave more precision.
As for 3rd party stuff, I think most stuff still would have been figured out, just without as much numerical precision. Knowing approx. where to stand as opposed to standing 50' away, knowing GOH or Fulm goes off at a certain letter in the mob name as opposed to an exact percentage. All those things were still discovered by observation first, 3rd party stuff just gave more precision.
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Unicorn.Tarowyn said:
More towards the original OP, you talk about Kaeko reverse engineering the enmity system, but I'm pretty sure the rules against reverse engineering don't really apply to what he did. They're more directed towards people who actually try and decompile and reverse engineer the code rather than trying to figure out stuff by observation.
This.
Would make completely no sense at all if players weren't allowed to run tests -just- by using the gameplay environment. Collecting data by playing the game "normally" is fine.
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Bahamut.Oblivion said:
Quote:
Parsers make people better players.
Depends on what's your definition of "better". I used to parse, then I stopped. I decided it wasn't worth it, being so anal over "improvements" that are insignificant.
I understand some people have some gaping void in their psyche that they have to have some constant feedback of "being the best", or "having the best", but for me, it's meh. Whatever; good enough is fine with me.
My definition of a better player is one who doesn't ignorantly pick gear that does not help them. Look quite honestly I could care less what you people think about me so here it is.
"Cookie cutter players" are generally better geared. While it's true gear doesn't make the player it is true that if you are better at your job you'll know how to gear it to deal the maximum amount of damage.
APRadar is a program that displays a map and your position on the map. If you want to call me lazy for using it I don't care. It's useful, shame on me for making life easier right?
You people can go about your righteous little world and let everyone else do the dirty work for you. Go join an HNM that doesn't bot.
Bring on the rate downs.. like I care lol
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If there was some way to parse forum text to auto-ban anyone from our site who whines about Windower, I would.
Internal consistency's a ***.
Internal consistency's a ***.
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Lakshmi.Jaerik said:
If there was some way to parse forum text to auto-ban anyone from our site who whines about Windower, I would.
Lakshmi.Jaerik said:
Internal consistency's a ***.
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Garuda.Antipika said:
Unicorn.Tarowyn said:
More towards the original OP, you talk about Kaeko reverse engineering the enmity system, but I'm pretty sure the rules against reverse engineering don't really apply to what he did. They're more directed towards people who actually try and decompile and reverse engineer the code rather than trying to figure out stuff by observation.
This.
Would make completely no sense at all if players weren't allowed to run tests -just- by using the gameplay environment. Collecting data by playing the game "normally" is fine.
Below is a quote taken directly from Kaeko himself, on the first page of his enmity testing guide, found on his livejournal
http://kanican.livejournal.com/tag/enmity+testing!
Kaeko said:
Also, as a final disclaimer, I'm pretty certain that reverse engineering something like this is considered against the ToS so this entire testing is technically 'cheating' via ToS - though I don't think applying the model I've derived from it is and certain isn't enough to get you in trouble obviously. So the act of testing is against the ToS via "Reverse Engineering" rules, but simply knowing the data probably isn't.
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Garuda.Antipika said:
Unicorn.Tarowyn said:
More towards the original OP, you talk about Kaeko reverse engineering the enmity system, but I'm pretty sure the rules against reverse engineering don't really apply to what he did. They're more directed towards people who actually try and decompile and reverse engineer the code rather than trying to figure out stuff by observation.
This.
Would make completely no sense at all if players weren't allowed to run tests -just- by using the gameplay environment. Collecting data by playing the game "normally" is fine.
It's "fine" by OUR standards, however the ToS doesn't mention a gray area of using gameplay environment. It's "no reverse engineering", period.
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I've always seen the mystery FFXi holds as a huge plus... so what we don't know everything there is to know about the game.. to me that's half the fun. People making their own theories. It adds flavor and variety to gear and how people appraoch different things.
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Diabolos.Sovereign said:
How much would we really know about the workings of FFXI without the development and applicable use of third party programs to reverse engineer?
I can't really think of ANY "workings of FFXI" at all that could not have been figured out by just observing the game.
Stuff I care about like distances, magic acc/dmg/potency/resistance, enemy stats, enmity, player/mob TP gain, etc...
All of those things require no tools to figure out measurements or formulas for.
Granted that parsers and Windower plugins would make things easier, but I don't see why they would be a necessity.
Sure, .dat file miners find out new stuff in each update before players have a chance to discover them, but that's only an unnatural sped up process of what would have happened anyway.
Plugins and tools just give people who: want a freely given unearned advantage OR are lazy OR are less skilled OR haven't spent time learning to play...
...an advantage, in that they can do/have what other people have put in time and effort for (and beyond) -- in learning how to play, developing skills, discovering how the game works, and putting in effort to play the game to the best of their own abilities under the constraints the game is designed to have - which are meant to be equal for both console and PC.
(And yes, I do realise FFXIAH uses third party tools. When I first started playing I avoided this website for several months, as I viewed it as a vague form of cheating.)
One thing I've always wondered though: If you make a program for FFXI yourself and use it - wouldn't that count as a second party tool? (SE being first party, you the player being second party, any other persons being third party...) :P
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Diabolos.Sovereign said:
http://kanican.livejournal.com/tag/enmity testing!
Kaeko said:
Also, as a final disclaimer, I'm pretty certain that reverse engineering something like this is considered against the ToS so this entire testing is technically 'cheating' via ToS - though I don't think applying the model I've derived from it is and certain isn't enough to get you in trouble obviously. So the act of testing is against the ToS via "Reverse Engineering" rules, but simply knowing the data probably isn't.
Heck, if you couldn't do stuff by observation, you pretty much could break TOS on accident constantly. Even the really simple stuff that you could figure out from basic observation just by using them. Oh boost gives 12.5% atk, bar spells go up as your enhancing goes up, berserk gives 25% atk, etc etc. If you couldn't reverse engineer the system, figuring out all those things would be against TOS.
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