Unsolved Mysteries Of Vana'diel

It's the cutscene just before the fight with Teodor, the second to last fight in Seekers of Adoulin's main story. Mission name: Watery Grave.



This should be a timestamped vid from my LP that shows it, if you can bear nasally voice over :P Should start at 31:42 if the timestamp doesn't carry through

Dude, I had no idea you and Sir Vyre on YT are the same person! I really enjoyed reading your write up on the expansion ranking video, I always looked forward to your feedback on the videos lol.

As far as what Teodor mentions here, I'll have to speculate. I hope you're ready for a bit of a rabbit hole. But, I think this is explained further by Balamor when he described the Cloud of Darkness. He also explains the different worlds (though he never mentions them being physical planets in the sky) that the CoD consumes when they lose the balance between light and darkness.


I’ve always found it interesting that the Star Sybil “looks to the stars” for guidance. Perhaps she can glimpse similar realities by doing so. Esha’tarl also claims that the destiny of mortals is found within the stars. Perhaps, hints at this story element, long before it was officially introduced? Regardless, There are two theories I have regarding this information.

Theory 1: Alternate Timelines Become Stars

Everytime an alternate timeline (like the shadowreign timeline) is closed off from Atomos’s devouring, it becomes a star in the night sky. This explains why, of the 5 worlds we visit throughout the story (Vana’diel, Shadowreign timeline, Abyssea, Escha, and Desuetia), all of them look and progress the same way.

There are some problems with this theory though. Unlike the Shadowreign timeline, the other worlds actually have their own names (like Abyssea, Escha, Desuetia). For example, the denizens of Abyssea believe that, when Altana broke apart the great crystal, Abyssea was created instead of Vana’diel.


Could the shattering of the great crystal have created multiple timelines, each seen as their own star? Maybe, but there’s also a second way of understanding this.

Theory 2: Many Physical Worlds

There are at least two different types of alternate worlds in FFXI. The first type is one that we're introduced to in Wings of the Goddess. The shadowreign timeline and Altana's timeline are fighting for which gets to continue existing.
Then there is the type of world that we're introduced to by Teodor (I thought RoV was the earliest reference to this, but that cutscene you shared proves otherwise).

As far as this second type of alternate world, I think we actually visit some. I think Desuetia and Escha are actually different worlds rather than simply being different timelines. Iroha and Zeid's Dialogue early on in RoV suggest that Escha isn't the future of Vana'diel, but rather a different place altogether.


I really wish I could get another translation of the original dialogue here, but it reads like Iroha agrees more with Zeid's fist assumption before shooting down his second. But the notion that Escha and Desuetia are different worlds is ridiculous, given they look, and progress identical to Vana'diel. That is, unless the same people are born to each of the worlds. There is evidence for this, we see past characters emerge from Selh’teus’ mothercrystal in RoV, despite it not even existing when those people were born (RoV 3-19).

If all the same people were born to each of the different worlds, it would allow them to stay mostly the same, with only minor variations. After all, Esha'ntarl does speak of counterparts Abyssea has for each individual.

I also wanted to bring up the proto crystals and the Trial by (element) quests. If the celestials are sleeping in their own world, does this mean that the proto crystals take players to the star of the celestial? Balamor also says that his world (Tartarus, I assume) is among the stars. For me, this points to Theory 2 a little more than Theory 1.

Brief Note on Crystals
FFXI portrays crystals very interestingly. It is almost like the Crystals are 4th dimensional structures protruding in the 3 dimensional world (I mean dimension as defined by spatial dimension in physics).This is why crystals are used to telepoint, because they are just shorter 4th dimensional pathways to another 3-dimensional point. This is also why the same Mothercrystals are visible in multiple locations, why one crystal could literally be inside itself (the Empyreal Paradox), and why everyone insists that there are only 5 mothercrystals despite there being at least 10 (between Vana’diel and Abyssea, and certainly more if the other worlds are counted) aside from Selh’teus’. Perhaps the reason the CoD seeps in through the mothercrystals first is because the shortest path from one world to another is through 4th dimensional structure connecting the two.

This would further support Theory 2, if all the mothercrystals of the worlds are the same 4th dimensional structure, it would follow that every world will, at some point, have the same people born into it. The crystal topic is an entirely different rabbit hole though, lol.

Again, all of this is just speculation! I’m just piecing things together from my knowledge of the in-game lore.

Thank you for attending my dissertation… What are your thoughts?

Well, The Star Sibyl that we know in game is a fraud. She does the Moon readings in her chambers that are linked all the way down to the Full Moon Fountain, but all of her readings are fake and contrived.

This is shown through the conclusion of the Windurst Nation missions, and in Chains of Promathia it is shown that the Horutoto Ruins are actually, like Pso'xja, ruins made by the Kuluu. The original seer then, is actually the terrestrial avatar Fenrir. Also shown when Fenrir relates the prophecy of The Keeper of The Apocalypse in Chains of Promathia to Eshantarl. It's hard to say if there was ever a real seer amongst the Tarutaru who could discern the future through the stars.

As for all of the alternate Vana'diels, I ask you to recall the Voidwatch Storyline, which you may or may not have done at all. Contained within the Voidwatch storyline is the fact that FFXI embraced multiverse theory just half decade or so before it really got popularized into mainstream thought.

In that questline you eventually encounter another Cait Sith, only this one was made by a different Altana from a different plane of existence. It is wholly grey. Eventually it teams up with Kupofried and together they open a crack that leads unto Provenance. Provenance is essentially Vana'diel Prime. The origin point of the FFXI multiverse.

Timestamp should be 1:29:17 where one of the grey Cait Sith explains it.


You then go onto eventually fight the Provenance Watcher, which is described as a, "Deific Deterrent." That used to guard the crystal.

This is supposed to be the crystal that is the origin of all life and all Vana'diels, and according to the Caits, the end of all life and Vana'diels eventually as well. The Caits ruminate on whether or not you can actually fully kill the Provenance Watcher ever, and then hope that one day a version of you and Lilisette will come along and do just that. But then goes back into saying how insane all of the Voidwatch events and Provenance in general are.

After returning to Walk of Echoes, Kupofried talks to you about considering the origins of the world, and what you just did means. He refers to you as a crystal-culler.

The implications are that the adventurer is interlocked with the beginning of all Vana'diels in that by eventually slaying the Provenance Watcher, we render the original crystal vulnerable to being inevitably split. I.E. For Altana to do what she did for Promathia, we had to be called back to the origin of all things and set into motion that possibility.

Within this same questline, the grey Cait Siths say that since the origin for all Vana'diels are the same, there are as many of the same individuals in each Vana'diels as there are sunrises. So I think your idea about the crystal in general being a 4th dimensional being isn't too far off the mark, since it exists both at the beginning and ending of time. The splitting of it allowing so much to exist in between/all at once.

As far as Escha goes, it seems to me to be explicitly what they said it was, the world as it will be when/if the Cloud of Darkness consumes it. A world drowned in the belly of the Cloud, more or less.

reported

I don't see it in admin. No balls!

This is a reference, one of very many, to the fact that once the player completes all the playable content, the game will eventually die. The entire worldbuilding of XI is all pivoted around this from the very first missions and storylines, it's peppered all over. The writers really embraced the "it's an online world so eventually the servers will shut down and the only thing left will be memories to cherish".

Thanks for the correction! For some reason, I knew about Fenrir being the source of the past star sybil's understanding, and I've gone through the rank 10 Windurst storyline, but for some reason I thought past star sibyls relied on readings from the full moon fountain.


I've unlocked Prominence, but I haven't finished the last few bosses, something that I've been wanting to do. This is really interesting though, it sounds like it more/less confirms that there are more than just alternate timelines, there are many versions of Vana'diel out there. I think it's fair to say that this may be what Teodor and Balamor were referencing when they talked about the stars. The stars aren't just alternate Vana'diels though, at the very least, we know that the Celestials have realms in the stars, and Tartarus also looks like a star. Do you agree with this?



In many eastern philosophies, the belief of enantiodromia, duality, or the dynamism between the known and the novel is what gives rise to the world. In Japanese mythology, Izanagi and Izanami came together to create the islands of japan as well as some of their children deities. The two were seperated at Izanami's death, and (in most versions of the myth) their creative acts stop at their separation. The two are symbolized by where they are separated to (Izanagi, stuck in the world of the living, or the known), and Izanami (stuck in the world of the dead, or the unknown). It required the unity of the known and unknown to bring about the world.

It's fascinating to see how these principles are incorporated into the lore of Vana'diel. Not just between Promathia and Altana, but literally as the player character, needing to act out this unity. As long as the player character confronts the darkness/emptiness, there will be more to Vana'diel. If they no longer have a reason to confront the darkness, the world will fall into decay.

Yeah, I agree that not all of the stars are Vana'diels. That much is explicit by both the Celestials and Tartarus. Though Tartarus interests me quite a bit because it plays into the whole dimensionally separate pocket reality angle with the way Teodor describes it.

This is why I love XI and Eastern RPGs. Always have an angle that I find interesting that ties into creation mythos that's always different and interesting. And there's so much mystery it's always intriguing.

Alright, It's been a little while since I finished tVR, and unlike most of the game's stories, I've only finished it once.

Are there any connections between Chaos and Bahamut beyond them both being Terrestrials? Usually Master Trials have really good lore reasons for sticking mobs together in a fight, but I can't seem to recall why Bahamut and Chaos are together for Wing of War, beyond both trying to wage war against the Vana'diel populations.

I don't recall Bahamut being mentioned or referenced at all in Voracious Resurgence. I think the justification for putting them together was that Chaos is "what if Bahamut but yellow."

There is big obvious lore reason stated in the title of the encounter. You fight the only two winged terrestrials that have ever waged war on the children of Promathia. And, between you and me, while I hope that SE finally forks over enough cash to make new assets (if that's still possible), I'm glad that Chaos isn't a color-swapped Naakual...

I was just curious about some of the Chaos lore that I'm blanking on.

realistically there was probably a lot more they wanted to do with TVR but simply couldn't. the game very nearly ended before completion of the story and I'm sure it isn't their proudest moment. I'd rather pretend the lore isn't canon but I'm not as invested or knowledgeable in it as some are here, so any inconsistencies or lack of explanation I just chalk up to the state of FFXI at the time.

Well, I don't recall any tie ins to Bahamut within XI itself, but Chaos is colored the way he is because he is a direct reference to Final Fantasy 1.

And Final Fantasy 1 is the first Final Fantasy in the entire series to feature Bahamut. He's not an enemy, instead a special quest dragon who grants the player their job promotions once they complete The Castle of The Ordeal.

In the original NES version, Bahamut looks like this:



A golden dragon, with a flared snout.

Beyond that, as far as I remember, Bahamut in XI is actually a Kuluu or a sympathetic Zilart that transformed into the draconic entity we know in order to wage war on the Zilart. He's not like the other terrestrial. I think it's one of those things that gets mentioned offhandedly in I wanna say... Sacrarium cutscenes during CoP? There's then no mention about how he turns into Bahamut, but I think it's implied that he uses the power of the crystals to under go said transformation.

Chaos, in XI, is a godlike beast that has extradimensional properties and sups regularly on the power of the crystals, and his blood is infused with it to the degree that his blood washing over people and items causes them to revive/be empowered.

So that would be the link, if my memory has not failed me.

It might not be a satisfying answer either, as it implies that Chaos is more powerful than Bahamut. But that seems to have been a running theme for all later reskins of older NMs anyway, so I guess it's whatever.

I thought he was a cool FF1 reference, as that's still in my top 5 Final Fantasies.

WHERES CHAOS???

I did not know this! ..SE could do the same thing for the next Job Points/Master Levels/whatever Job Upgrade in the pipeline. Just like the Magian Moogle next to Maat, who unlocks your levels from 75 to 99, SE could easily do a 2-second Moogle-Magic cutscene but with Bahamut, in Riverne B01. If this absolutely needed to be a neater tie-in, just give Bahamut 2-3 sentences about the TVR ending ...and *boom*, job upgrades AND lore-gratification complete!

Odd, I could have promised that was Diabolos that was a Zilart/Kuluu before being transformed, but the lore relation you mentioned between Chaos and Bahamut makes way more sense.

This goes into my folder of images I can hear...

Lots of interesting info in this thread (particularly in regards to the general lore of Vana'diel) I'm not going to comment on any of it, as I play the missions too far apart (years) and most of the cutscenes only get watched once (although if I'm helping someone I often watch parts of some of them again) so I forget lots of info.

I would just apply Occam's Razor to all the (perceived) contradictions. Which is to say most of the story is told via NPCs and as such they have their own motivations and shortcomings. I think there's even reference to different lores in different subcultures within Vana'diel itself so anything learned could have mistakes for a variety of reasons. (The characters is lying, the characters misremembered, the character is omitting important details (knowing or unknowingly) the character was passed bad lore...etc...