Most Worthless Moves In FFXI?
Most Worthless Moves In FFXI?
Aspir and Drain Sambas are better support job abilities than dancer main abilities.
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Mijin seems to have one too many uses to be considered worthless, so I'm not going with that. Also, Sange is so far on the fence for some that it is borderline worthless, but not entirely. Tame can work a bit like Hide, so I can see how that isn't.
What about Eagle Eye Shot and Mikage? Or Blaze Spikes and Shock Spikes?
What about Eagle Eye Shot and Mikage? Or Blaze Spikes and Shock Spikes?
I am still on the "Sange is useless train" lol but Mikage imo is also pretty useless. NIN has no issues gearing for multi attack. If your hybrid set is full of malignance and lacking multiattack you have to then maintain shadows in order to benefit from Mikage. Which translates to
1. You aren't fighting/tanking anything that will obliterate your shadows through multihits/aoes/magic etc. Therefore probably not threatening content.
2. Because you have to maintain shadows in order to benefit from it, you find yourself spending time casting shadows during threatening content in order to not die lol.
Sure its cool to have a big boost to multiattack, but unless its semi casual easy content, I don't see its usefulness and stay on the side of it should be overhauled.
Also, I say this as a player who enjoys playing NIN. But I still feel for the most part, its SP's and Sange should be overhauled by todays standards.
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
Despite the earlier talk about people abusing Modus back when it still worked, I'm not even sure that's true. Iirc someone posted a proof of concept video where they almost killed AV with like 6 Modus and SE nerfed the ability before they managed to kill it that way?
SE patched before they used with a full alliance of SCHs on AV and yeah, it would've worked for sure.
If I recall though it was a strange thing.
Back then Modus Veritas was 100% accurate, it was doubling the damage and halving the duration.
What is a Helix tough? Is a debuff (a dot) placed on a target. Which means Modus Veritas was a JA doing "something" on a specific debuff present on the target you used it on.
The "real" bug was that if multiple players used Modus Veritas within a very short time window sever time (I think ~3 seconds? A server "tic" basically) the damage of the Helix kept on getting doubled, but the duration was halved only once.
For all we know the 10k max damage cap on Helix might have not even been in place back then, I don't think we had gear to get not even close to that amount of damage, so we really can't say.
I mean, they could have fixed the "real" issue (the unusual and theoretically not possible "stacking") but I guess it would've been more complicated, and hence they went that route instead.
It still sounds stupid to me, because once you place a cap to the max damage a Helix Toc can do, who cares if you multiply it 200000 instead of x2, it still won't do more than 10k damage each tock.
Or am I missing something here?
Shiva.Myamoto said: »
Also, I say this as a player who enjoys playing NIN. But I still feel for the most part, its SP's and Sange should be overhauled by todays standards.
Probably only applying to white damage I bet, lol
If anything they should boost Mikage's duration by at least double the amount it is now.
But then I don't know, Mikage still has the core issue that you described around the concept of needing shadows up to receive the real +DA effect and so on.
The huge amount of Subtle Blow is cool at least.
duration on many of the Sp/SP2 should go up imo, doesnt make them useless just very underwhelming for what little they tend to add
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Shiva.Myamoto said: »
Also, I say this as a player who enjoys playing NIN. But I still feel for the most part, its SP's and Sange should be overhauled by todays standards.
Probably only applying to white damage I bet, lol
If anything they should boost Mikage's duration by at least double the amount it is now.
But then I don't know, Mikage still has the core issue that you described around the concept of needing shadows up to receive the real +DA effect and so on.
The huge amount of Subtle Blow is cool at least.
Yeah if the duration was increased substantially to like 3 minutes, then perhaps I could see more of a practical use behind it but as it is... it's in the worthless move pile for me.
Eagle Eye Shot and Widened Compass come to mind as pretty bad. They're 1hr abilities but just compare widened compass to bolster lol. And eagle eye shot is usually weaker than a weaponskill. Last stand puts up bigger numbers.
Also Mug, steal, despoil still pretty perpetually worthless, despite several updates over the years. Aura steal makes steal kinda ok but even then, it's still pretty meh.
Also Mug, steal, despoil still pretty perpetually worthless, despite several updates over the years. Aura steal makes steal kinda ok but even then, it's still pretty meh.
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We use Widened Compass while kiting H since he moves faster then the other basement bosses.
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That's what we use widened compass for too. But for a 1hr ability it's still pretty lackluster. That's the only situation I think it's ever relevant, but I do acknowledge that thanks to sortie it's slightly more useful than it used to be.
Asura.Melliny said: »
Dancer has a bunch of amazing support abilities, but aspir and drain samba though are not among the better ones.
Pretty sure they meant the abilities are more useful with DNC sub than DNC main, not that they are the best supporting abilities available to a DNC main.
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Makes more sense. Yeah, anything /dnc could get some use out of them. Dancer main job wouldn't use em. I just misinterpreted what he was saying.
Warrior's Charge isn't all that useful.
You could add Brazen rush to that list too, since warrior has so many ways to cap DA rate with the gear we have available. The only thing you'll get is a couple extra DA procs on weaponskills, and that's pretty irrelevant. For a 1hr it's in the same camp as eagle eye shot.
Assassin's charge is the same thing. You actually LOSE DPS by activating it bercause of the JA activation timer. It was meant for the 75 era where we attacked slower (thief couldn't even cap gear haste at 75) and didn't have the natural multi attack rate we do today. It's scaled so poorly that meriting it is actually harmful.
Quote:
Warrior's Charge isn't all that useful.
Assassin's charge is the same thing. You actually LOSE DPS by activating it bercause of the JA activation timer. It was meant for the 75 era where we attacked slower (thief couldn't even cap gear haste at 75) and didn't have the natural multi attack rate we do today. It's scaled so poorly that meriting it is actually harmful.
Asura.Sechs said: »
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
Despite the earlier talk about people abusing Modus back when it still worked, I'm not even sure that's true. Iirc someone posted a proof of concept video where they almost killed AV with like 6 Modus and SE nerfed the ability before they managed to kill it that way?
I linked a Kaeko blog describing it. The short version is that it would double damage while halving duration, but not to less than one tick (I guess), so you needed to have a helix land right after the zone tick and then have a bunch of scholars Modus it before the next zone tick.
Kaeko said it had to be within 3 seconds, but helix ticks are 10 seconds (I used to call them tocks but have given up). My guess is that halving duration could actually push the helix duration below 10s, which means you would need incredible timing to actually use this strat because you are multiplying helix damage by 512 and reducing duration to duration*(3/4)^9, which should be below a 10 second tock at level 75.
Anyway, my point is that as much as people talked about this exploit, it remained pretty solidly theoretical and I am unaware of anyone successfully using it on AV.
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It was used on Hydra, famously.
But they mentioned AV on BG. and there's other mentions, and theories but zero kills I ever saw.
Below is a quick table that shows the amount of damage dealt with x number of Modus Veritas landing on various base damage helices. I have highlighted all damage amounts here that exceed 66,000 damage (the maximum HP of Absolute Virtue). What we find is that if you can successfully land 9 MVs on Absolute Virtue with a base helix damage of 130 or higher, you would essentially 1-shot Absolute Virtue.
We failed on 9 sequences on this attempt, and were unable to successfully "luck" into a success on AV.
But they mentioned AV on BG. and there's other mentions, and theories but zero kills I ever saw.
Quote:
This is a video taken on July 25, 2009 (courtesy of Tuufless). Hydra was used as a target due to high magic resistance and high total HP. This video shows a successful landing of 9 Modus Veritas with a 63 damage base helix. The result is a 512x increase in the base damage, or 32,256 damage. Hydra has roughly 75,000 HP, so it deals ~43% of its HP bar in the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0xdlyxh5Jo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0xdlyxh5Jo
Quote:
We failed on 9 sequences on this attempt, and were unable to successfully "luck" into a success on AV.
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Asura.Melliny said: »
You could add Brazen rush to that list too, since warrior has so many ways to cap DA rate with the gear we have available. The only thing you'll get is a couple extra DA procs on weaponskills, and that's pretty irrelevant. For a 1hr it's in the same camp as eagle eye shot.
Assassin's charge is the same thing. You actually LOSE DPS by activating it bercause of the JA activation timer. It was meant for the 75 era where we attacked slower (thief couldn't even cap gear haste at 75) and didn't have the natural multi attack rate we do today. It's scaled so poorly that meriting it is actually harmful.
Quote:
Warrior's Charge isn't all that useful.
Assassin's charge is the same thing. You actually LOSE DPS by activating it bercause of the JA activation timer. It was meant for the 75 era where we attacked slower (thief couldn't even cap gear haste at 75) and didn't have the natural multi attack rate we do today. It's scaled so poorly that meriting it is actually harmful.
If Brazen Rush is additive, you could theoretically make a Brazen Rush set and replace many DA pieces with STP or something.
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Asura.Melliny said: »
That's what we use widened compass for too. But for a 1hr ability it's still pretty lackluster. That's the only situation I think it's ever relevant, but I do acknowledge that thanks to sortie it's slightly more useful than it used to be.
Widened Compass has a lot more use but most people turn their brains off when they play GEO.
If you have a bubble you want to keep alive (blaze/ecliptic, for example), you can use Widened to get it out of range out all the enemy's AOE while still being in range of your allies. It is insanely helpful for Kalunga, for example. I set my first BoG/EA bubble down with Widened and it will survive from 100% all the way to 40% without going down. It can't be hit by anything Kalunga does except Blistering Roar.
You could also do this trick for the Bolstered bubble, but I prefer it this way since you can use Dematerialize -> WC -> Dematerialize -> RD -> Dematerialize under 40%, at least in theory.
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X's Charge were always a bit of a wash that just got worse overtime, only way id see them come back into play is if they allowed da/ta dmg to apply to ws' under charge
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Widened Compass has a lot more use but most people turn their brains off when they play GEO.
Yeah definitely this.
Widened Compass may not be Bolster, but Bolster got itself nerfed so that's probably a good thing. Definitely not in the worthless category for people with situational awareness > potato.
Phoenix.Iocus said: »
people with situational awareness > potato.
There's three of those left, and two are living as hermits in the mountains in Tibet.
SimonSes said: »
If Brazen Rush is additive, you could theoretically make a Brazen Rush set and replace many DA pieces with STP or something.
It decays tho. War's native DA makes sure you stay capped for a little longer, but it still uncaps eventually then you're worse off than you started.
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
If you have a bubble you want to keep alive (blaze/ecliptic, for example), you can use Widened to get it out of range out all the enemy's AOE while still being in range of your allies. It is insanely helpful for Kalunga, for example. I set my first BoG/EA bubble down with Widened and it will survive from 100% all the way to 40% without going down. It can't be hit by anything Kalunga does except Blistering Roar.
It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure this is we did something similar during Arebati or Ongo V25. If RUN stands with his back at a wall at max distance, you can position the Bubble just out of any AOE threat behind the boss via Widened Compass. As you said, this allows you to keep a valuable Bubble up, especially if it's during something like Rayke/Tabula Rasa/Bolster etc and the GEO can also nuke to add some dps.
Lili said: »
people with situational awareness > potato.
I think it's the only action that requires to select the spell from the list while holding a extra button and then place position with arrow keys which again the spacing distance between steps is controlled with another shortcut.
Everything else in this game conditioned us to use macros, they couldn't have made this more unintuitive if they tried.
I mean, it's clunky but that doesn't mean you can't do it, it just takes a few seconds longer. In a 15 minute fight it's totally irrelevant. If you're not aware of one of the core features of your job, someone can tell you how it works and then you can do it for the rest of your life.
FFXI has never told anyone anything about how the game works, you need to learn basically everything from wikis or other players.
How would you know how directional magic works for GEO? Maybe some NPC tells you, but I sure as hell don't remember seeing it anywhere if it does. How do you know that Sleepga II goes over Sleepga? How would you know that Horde Lullaby II range is based on Stringed Instrument skill? How do you know which enfeebles are affected by Enfeebling Potency and what that does?
Problem with controlling bubbles is that they're the first ground-targeted spell or ability in FFXI. Their options are: introduce new systems for ground-targeting that absolutely nobody playing FFXI is familiar with or has ever used OR don't allow you to place a bubble anywhere except on a player or enemy. I think they made the right call, it's nice to be able to place a bubble anywhere you want.
FFXI has never told anyone anything about how the game works, you need to learn basically everything from wikis or other players.
How would you know how directional magic works for GEO? Maybe some NPC tells you, but I sure as hell don't remember seeing it anywhere if it does. How do you know that Sleepga II goes over Sleepga? How would you know that Horde Lullaby II range is based on Stringed Instrument skill? How do you know which enfeebles are affected by Enfeebling Potency and what that does?
Problem with controlling bubbles is that they're the first ground-targeted spell or ability in FFXI. Their options are: introduce new systems for ground-targeting that absolutely nobody playing FFXI is familiar with or has ever used OR don't allow you to place a bubble anywhere except on a player or enemy. I think they made the right call, it's nice to be able to place a bubble anywhere you want.
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Shichishito said: »
they couldn't have made this more unintuitive if they tried.
Yeah that's this entire game. You aren't playing for the AAA gameplay and stellar controls
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Here's how it works, boiled down as simple as possible:
Cast a bubble (menu, macro, doesn't matter). While you're casting it (with the blue circle around you/the target), the arrow keys move your camera, like they always do. If you hold ctrl, you will move the bubble instead.
If you want to make the movement faster or slower, there's a text command to fine-tune it to the speed you like.
That's the whole system.
Cast a bubble (menu, macro, doesn't matter). While you're casting it (with the blue circle around you/the target), the arrow keys move your camera, like they always do. If you hold ctrl, you will move the bubble instead.
If you want to make the movement faster or slower, there's a text command to fine-tune it to the speed you like.
That's the whole system.
Discussions like this are wonderful because it outs the people who play the game and the people whos game gets played by a bot.
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Drain Samba is used a lot at low levels before Haste Samba, so it has a lot of use on a subjob until 90 and until 45 for Dancer main.
I agree that Atomos has use. Although I've never seen it used, it does not make it worthless. Unlike Odin, which only really hits Death on targets low enough you could kill easily with other blood pacts, so it is a waste of a 1-hour.
I didn't see anyone talk about the Astral Flow BPs. They all look pointless except for Clarsach Call on Siren. So, Inferno, Earthern Fury, Tidal Wave, Aerial Blast, Diamond Dust, Judgment Bolt, Searing Light, Howling Moon and Ruinous Omen. And yes, I agree with Level ? Holy being terrible.
I find it nice that we can have an actual discussion about the game without it devolving in to nonsense. Although, now that I have said that, I bet it's more likely.
I agree that Atomos has use. Although I've never seen it used, it does not make it worthless. Unlike Odin, which only really hits Death on targets low enough you could kill easily with other blood pacts, so it is a waste of a 1-hour.
I didn't see anyone talk about the Astral Flow BPs. They all look pointless except for Clarsach Call on Siren. So, Inferno, Earthern Fury, Tidal Wave, Aerial Blast, Diamond Dust, Judgment Bolt, Searing Light, Howling Moon and Ruinous Omen. And yes, I agree with Level ? Holy being terrible.
Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
Discussions like this are wonderful because it outs the people who play the game and the people whos game gets played by a bot.
I find it nice that we can have an actual discussion about the game without it devolving in to nonsense. Although, now that I have said that, I bet it's more likely.
AF BPs may have fallen to the wayside but they had use:
korolokka burns
Ezmode CoP missions
That pirate chart fight in valkurm
Thats off the top of my head
korolokka burns
Ezmode CoP missions
That pirate chart fight in valkurm
Thats off the top of my head
Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
AF BPs may have fallen to the wayside but they had use:
korolokka burns
Ezmode CoP missions
That pirate chart fight in valkurm
Thats off the top of my head
korolokka burns
Ezmode CoP missions
That pirate chart fight in valkurm
Thats off the top of my head
They "had" use, but do they currently have use? Moves may have been awesome back in the day, but have since become worthless.
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