Bot != automation. There's some overlap, sure, but they're not the same thing at all.
If you initiate a command and it does 6 actions, is it automation? What if it does 10? 20? 100? 1000?
What if I have a server with 2000 characters on it and I send them all: //send @all /lastsynth ? This is not automation, because I typed in that text? Creating 1,999 commands from thin air is not automation, by your logic?
If I have 6,000 cells in Excel that all update as soon as I change the value of A1, that's not automation, that's me manually doing math, because I inserted the seed value?
Newer Players Need To Step Up Their Game
Newer players need to step up their game
Fenrir.Niflheim said: »
Your argument seems to imply that this is your stance:
a pilot flying a plane that uses fly by wire is not flying a plane, the computer is flying the plane "automatically", the pilot just inputs command into the computer that then controls how it flies the plane.
a pilot flying a plane that uses fly by wire is not flying a plane, the computer is flying the plane "automatically", the pilot just inputs command into the computer that then controls how it flies the plane.
Would you argue that there's no automation in that process? What if it's a Boeing 747 that detects whether the plane is near the ground? Would you say that pilot is flying without the use of automation?
Boeing only detects when their planes are near the ground when the wings get pushed into the tail, but even that's a coin flip if they notice or not.
Any Macro with 2 or more lines, technically gearsets, because its automating changing all gear at one time. And that's all built into the game.
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Fenrir.Niflheim said: »
Your argument seems to imply that this is your stance:
a pilot flying a plane that uses fly by wire is not flying a plane, the computer is flying the plane "automatically", the pilot just inputs command into the computer that then controls how it flies the plane.
a pilot flying a plane that uses fly by wire is not flying a plane, the computer is flying the plane "automatically", the pilot just inputs command into the computer that then controls how it flies the plane.
Would you argue that there's no automation in that process? What if it's a Boeing 747 that detects whether the plane is near the ground? Would you say that pilot is flying without the use of automation?
By Maletaru's logic, playing FFXI itself is automation because we should be inputing 1 and 0 to generate our frames.
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I think he is just doing a poor job of explaining his argument, I think he wants us to change how we talk about this and use the "right" words.
a lot of people will use a bot and automatic interchangeably and he said they are not same.
So this argument is over the words being used, I guess
a lot of people will use a bot and automatic interchangeably and he said they are not same.
So this argument is over the words being used, I guess
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Fenrir.Niflheim said: »
a lot of people will use a bot and automatic interchangeably and he said they are not same.
They're literally not the same.
A pizza oven is automatic, you insert a pizza and, without any further input from you, it makes a pizza. It won't cook a pizza unless you put the pizza in though, and you can walk away.
An excel formula is automatic, but it won't do anything if you don't change the cells, so it's definitely not a bot.
An elevation detector will automatically tell you that you're close to the ground, without any intervention from you.
A bot will continue doing things until it runs out of power and will go forever with no input.
A *** tractor that drops seeds into the ground is automation.
Automation is a force multiplier. A bot is an infinite generation of commands/interpretation.
Have you heard of venn diagrams before, or is everything just binary in your world?
*bot everyone has heard of* is a bot. It's also automation.
Send is not a bot. It definitely contains automation.
Superwarp is not a bot. It definitely contains automation.
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
A pizza oven is automatic, you insert a pizza and, without any further input from you, it makes a pizza. It won't cook a pizza unless you put the pizza in though, and you can walk away.
ay bumboklaatttt guy said cooking food is automation
Thats chemistry
What side is he arguing for now?
Here OP just wanted some newer players to be a little more self-sufficient and ya'll gotta ackshually each other to death over things only barely related to the topic.
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Whats next?
If I let go of a ball and it falls to the ground, thats also automation because I'm not physically putting the ball to the ground?
If I let go of a ball and it falls to the ground, thats also automation because I'm not physically putting the ball to the ground?
Flushing the toilet is automation because its sucking the poop down into the drain instead of you stomping it into the drain.
I engage/disengage between every swing because otherwise normal swings are too automated for me.
If I log on a fresh new char and type a certain command and my character walks the region to unlock home points, levels to 20 and farms dewdrops, travels to Mhaura to get rhapsody1 and subjob, travels to Jeuno and unlocks chocobo, levels to 50, does limit breaks, and logs off..
Is that not a bot because I hand typed the first command? Ultimately, the argument that input was provided is not sufficient on it's own. There needs to be more narrowing parameters, for example:
If decisions are made without user input, it's a bot?
-Superwarp won't try to warp if the home point is not unlocked or you don't have enough gil(presumably). A decision was made.
If it happens later in time, it's a bot?
-You can use send macros with /wait.
I think most people inherently have an idea what counts as botting to them, but almost nobody can rigidly outline it in strict terms. Maletaru's note that 'Automation is a force multiplier' is probably the most apt. Send is still going to make you more efficient than if you didn't have it, though it might be extremely marginal in the ways we're talking about.
I'm not even sure what the point of this argument is.
Is that not a bot because I hand typed the first command? Ultimately, the argument that input was provided is not sufficient on it's own. There needs to be more narrowing parameters, for example:
If decisions are made without user input, it's a bot?
-Superwarp won't try to warp if the home point is not unlocked or you don't have enough gil(presumably). A decision was made.
If it happens later in time, it's a bot?
-You can use send macros with /wait.
I think most people inherently have an idea what counts as botting to them, but almost nobody can rigidly outline it in strict terms. Maletaru's note that 'Automation is a force multiplier' is probably the most apt. Send is still going to make you more efficient than if you didn't have it, though it might be extremely marginal in the ways we're talking about.
I'm not even sure what the point of this argument is.
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Kaffy said: »
Here OP just wanted some newer players to be a little more self-sufficient and ya'll gotta ackshually each other to death over things only barely related to the topic.
It all comes back to bots/addons are bad eventually and discussing just where the grey line is
at least i think that's what's going on here
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Jokes aside, wasn't that actually a thing in like 2005 because of 2-handed delay, or is that just a fever dream memory?
Kaffy said: »
Here OP just wanted some newer players to be a little more self-sufficient and ya'll gotta ackshually each other to death over things only barely related to the topic.
This.
I get using words properly, but at this point I can argue that a mug is the same as a donut and a poptart is the same as a pizza and I'm technically correct, but it adds exactly zero to any discussion involving either of those objects.
Like any words, "automation" has multiple meanings depending on context and nuance. In game context, it usually implies at least "unattended", but that's not the end of it.
In this context, it's shorthand for "code that plays the game for you", and is mentioned because there's way too many players that think "being good at the game" is equal to "having the better scripts". Send does not fall under that, healbot and silmaril do. Craft does too, tho in much more limited scope than either of those two, and finally gearswap bots are probably the absolute worst.
Yet none of this applies to the actual opening post, which was about "come on people put in a modicum of effort and initiative" and not "lmao git gud 99k spam or //terminate".
Fenrir.Richybear said: »
I engage/disengage between every swing because otherwise normal swings are too automated for me.
Obvious trolling but I've already discussed this ridiculous point. Obviously FFXI includes some automation. I have no problem with automation as a general concept in the world.
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Yes it is, obviously, automation. The difference, of course, being that I have never claimed that FFXI doesn't include automation, however:
Lili said: »
Send doesn't do anything automatically
I just think that creating n statements to send to FFXI is "doing something automatically"
It's like saying "Excel doesn't do anything automatically"...it's just a patently untrue statement about a piece of software.
Nariont said: »
Kaffy said: »
Here OP just wanted some newer players to be a little more self-sufficient and ya'll gotta ackshually each other to death over things only barely related to the topic.
It all comes back to bots/addons are bad eventually and discussing just where the grey line is
at least i think that's what's going on here
Yeah and we've had those discussions for the entire history of the game and nothing has significantly changed as a result. It is a topic people are passionate about but also powerless to effect any real change to. Some people are going to bot and buy gil, and others will not. Make your friends accordingly if it matters, then just enjoy the game I say.
Kaffy said: »
Here OP just wanted some newer players to be a little more self-sufficient and ya'll gotta ackshually each other to death over things only barely related to the topic.
Newbies need to step up their game: they need to cheat more, multibox more, bot more, use more drugs, mug old grandmas, do more sex with prostitutes.
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Yes it is, obviously, automation. The difference, of course, being that I have never claimed that FFXI doesn't include automation, however:
Lili said: »
Send doesn't do anything automatically
I just think that creating n statements to send to FFXI is "doing something automatically"
It's like saying "Excel doesn't do anything automatically"...it's just a patently untrue statement about a piece of software.
This statement you quoted seems like you have gone well out of context from the conversation, the chain (as far as I cared to go back) started with:
Quote:
Addons don't make you WS more frequently, let's be real here.
then
Quote:
Most players are are using addons to control their alt accounts. Would they really WS as frequently if they had to alt-tab between each instance and manually use their macro?
then
Quote:
The send addon and all its variations still count as "manual" and lets the user set up macros that are 500% more effective[*] than any sort of bot.
then
Quote:
Automatic that self-identifies as manual. Sure, why not.
Quote:
Send doesn't do anything automatically, it just lets you send text commands to another character running on the same PC. So you can make a Fire macro that casts on your character or another Fire macro that casts on your other character. There's no automation of any sort.
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I'll never understand the 6 boxing with automation... just feels like you might as well play OSRS
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Quote:
Send doesn't do anything automatically, it just lets you send text commands to another character running on the same PC. So you can make a Fire macro that casts on your character or another Fire macro that casts on your other character. There's no automation of any sort.
This isn't a full list of everything Send can do. Maybe they should consult with the guy who wrote it, that could help clarify any misunderstanding about the functionality of the addon and what it can do.
Quote:
The send addon and all its variations still count as "manual" and lets the user set up macros that are 500% more effective[*] than any sort of bot.
This is pointing out you can send 6 commands at once, though it could be 100. Maybe they missed this point.
Even if you only consider the fact that you don't have to alt+tab, it's still saving you button presses and making your actions faster, so a force multiplier even with just //send alt fire <t>. You can also ask it to do things that can't be done in game like <tid>.
Wow, this guy really should brush up on the code of this addon, he seems to be unaware of the many features it adds!
Sylvebits said: »
I'll never understand the 6 boxing with automation... just feels like you might as well play OSRS
Is 6 boxing without automation any better? I'm sure its a controversial opinion but personally I think 6 boxing contributes to killing the game community. Does it make SE money? Hell yes. Do they know people do it? Hell yes. But again, relative to the topic of this thread- - it takes up spots that newer or less experienced players looking to get into content would be able to fill.
I think I saw someone here say they would never give up a human spot for an alt in their Sortie run, but I highly doubt that is true for most.
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Maybe they should consult with the guy who wrote it, that could help clarify any misunderstanding about the functionality of the addon and what it can do.
The addon is 120 lines of code and she has made changes to 88 lines in a single PR
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Controlling 1 character and summoning 5 trusts, i can Pull a Ghost locus Crab, engage, and walk away. I will come back in 5 minutes and it will be dead. I can rinse and repeat.
Someone else can set up a bot, Pull 1 monster, they could set it to kill 1 monster and, Not WS, just melee white damage then force it to end.
They Obviously aren't the same thing, but in a game where Automation is a build in part, the lines are bound to be blurred. Trusts are automated and not Bots. BUT, they make intuitive decisions without any additional input from the player. They will cast on their own, WS on their on, even skill chain and Busts on their one, independent of the player, the same way someone could set a bot to run.
I think this portion of the convo stemmed from someone saying they literally were telling new players that he recommended them buying gil to get started.
Technically using Anything outside of POL is "cheating" as its against TOS. This very site tracks the data outside of the game. Windowr, etc, anything that's not build into the game is cheating technically.
We had a Huge issue with someone Blurring those lines, and he was ok with Windowr and Some addons, But, Multi boxing for him was too much. Even If that multi Box was literally someone using 2 Pcs, which IS completely fine.
TL:DR FFXI currently = Big Grey area
Its a 20+ year old game. Kinda who cares?
Someone else can set up a bot, Pull 1 monster, they could set it to kill 1 monster and, Not WS, just melee white damage then force it to end.
They Obviously aren't the same thing, but in a game where Automation is a build in part, the lines are bound to be blurred. Trusts are automated and not Bots. BUT, they make intuitive decisions without any additional input from the player. They will cast on their own, WS on their on, even skill chain and Busts on their one, independent of the player, the same way someone could set a bot to run.
I think this portion of the convo stemmed from someone saying they literally were telling new players that he recommended them buying gil to get started.
Technically using Anything outside of POL is "cheating" as its against TOS. This very site tracks the data outside of the game. Windowr, etc, anything that's not build into the game is cheating technically.
We had a Huge issue with someone Blurring those lines, and he was ok with Windowr and Some addons, But, Multi boxing for him was too much. Even If that multi Box was literally someone using 2 Pcs, which IS completely fine.
TL:DR FFXI currently = Big Grey area
Its a 20+ year old game. Kinda who cares?
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Delete the name of bots my guy, dont be *** stupid and name them on the forums
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Sylph.Dmhlucky said: »
Trusts are automated and not Bots
TBH, I would argue that trusts are 100% bots. So are adventuring fellows. Macros are automation.
SE doesn't have a problem with automation. The TOS says you can't use third party tools, not SE tools. I can't believe we're still going over these inane examples.
Fenrir.Niflheim said: »
That was just rude and unnecessary
I agree it was rude and intentionally so, but coming out and claiming you're the authority on something puts your authority on it firmly in the center of the discussion, IMO.
Oh i agree that Trusts are basically Bots. But more the point is since they were created by SE, they are ok Bots.
But the point is, its easy to see why the lines get blurred.
but yea, back to the topic at hand.
I think there does need to be some kinda of guide in game for newer players, that's a bit more user friendly, that will help get newer players enter endgame without so much struggle on both sides.
Either more ROE's, or kind of like how 14 made tutorial content.
But the point is, its easy to see why the lines get blurred.
but yea, back to the topic at hand.
I think there does need to be some kinda of guide in game for newer players, that's a bit more user friendly, that will help get newer players enter endgame without so much struggle on both sides.
Either more ROE's, or kind of like how 14 made tutorial content.
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