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Newer players need to step up their game
By Afania 2024-09-25 23:48:22
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Oh, what's the command to have a parse tell you that someone was using tools?
I think you just said my point again? The parse will not tell you why someone out-parsed you, you have to figure it out yourself.
WS frequency, obviously. If someone has abnormally high WS frequency compare with previous data, then it is easy to suspect this person uses tools.
Parse can tell you someone is winning because their WS hits harder or they WS faster. Tools don't help your WS dmg, it only helps WS frequency. Then you can tell.
It's barely a "puzzle" that needs to be figured out by comparing WS frequency and average.
 Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-09-26 00:56:40
There's a huge difference between
it is easy to suspect this person uses tools.
and
Parse does tell that, you know.
How do you tell the difference between a player who's just playing better than you vs one who's using "tools" to improve their DPS?
Assuming a sheol C full clear seg farm, what's the WS count for a SAM using tools? What about one without? How about a WAR with/without? DRG?
By Afania 2024-09-26 01:14:33
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »How do you tell the difference between a player who's just playing better than you vs one who's using "tools" to improve their DPS?
How much "better" can people do with normal auto target? I can see people WS a few times faster with better reaction speed. But not way faster.
I also use the combination of parse and animation to tell. If I am playing I'm not going to stare at other people's animation all day. If I noticed abnormally high frequency on parse then I can start watching the animation to confirm. So parse does help you spot tool users even if you eventually need to watch animation to confirm.
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2024-09-26 03:19:48
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Assuming a sheol C full clear seg farm Sorry to barge in but I wanted to underline a thing.
I'm not claiming it's completely irrelevant -because it's not- but at the same time I wouldn't say Sheol C parses are a particularly effective way to measure how "good" a player is on a certain job.
I mean, it does tell you something for sure, and some situations are overly clear with that.
But at the same time there are so many variables at play in Sheol C runs that, I dunno, I would take it with a grain of salt.
Especially if it's someone you met/parsed just once.
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By Dodik 2024-09-26 04:22:46
Addons don't make you WS more frequently, let's be real here.
A human being with autotarget off manually switching targets is quicker than any addons that target for you or the built in autotarget. Source - self.
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By Seun 2024-09-26 05:12:22
Addons don't make you WS more frequently, let's be real here.
Most players are are using addons to control their alt accounts. Would they really WS as frequently if they had to alt-tab between each instance and manually use their macro?
A human being with autotarget off manually switching targets is quicker than any addons that target for you or the built in autotarget. Source - self.
I thought we were being real?
'Human being' describes less than half of our playerbase. The majority is controlled by addons or scripts. They don't care that manual target works fine for a real person playing, they want something that addresses their issue.
By Lili 2024-09-26 05:37:08
Most players are are using addons to control their alt accounts. Would they really WS as frequently if they had to alt-tab between each instance and manually use their macro?
The send addon and all its variations still count as "manual" and lets the user set up macros that are 500% more effective[*] than any sort of bot.
'Human being' describes less than half of our playerbase. The majority is controlled by addons or scripts. They don't care that manual target works fine for a real person playing, they want something that addresses their issue.
That issue is entirely self-inflicted. If "users" want maximum efficiency, manual control with clever macroing is the solution. If they want to afk while their addons fight for them, inefficiency is basically[*] mandatory.
(some people are proficient enough that they're able to write bots that are more efficient than any hyooman can be. Those people also understand why they shouldn't share, and in fact they do not)
[*]for certain meanings of the term.
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 126
By Phoenix.Gavroches 2024-09-26 05:44:59
Guys… come on….
First you taking up on newbies to step it up but it took you years to get to that point, so what’s your point?!?
Then you take it on on people to out parse you on fictional add on… (you can’t TP/WS faster with addon…) and plenty of vanilla player might disagree with you
Regular blaming of naegling overkilling but not the 2 step SC which is also overkill
Some dudes are better because they play better, that’s it. I met plenty of folks with nyame 20-25 and some just s u c k - a s s . Sometimes luck buff will change that parse, but if it’s consistent, ask then what they doing, they will answer if you not a ***. Maybe it’s the controller vs keyboard (I’m a keyboard) maybe it’s lining/facing the mob the right way, left or right, maybe it’s just having the next target selected and switching as the last swings goes, maybe he’s more focus/OCD than you are. There’s tons of reason but addon doesn’t WS faster as TP come from SE, they send you the amount, you send the request from WS that get approved, send you back it you and apply it, your game answer by an animation. The JA0 can allow you move characters because it’s skipping the animation lock but doesn’t allow you to swing either, can’t TP, can’t cast, can’t JA… your bitterness towards whatever will prevent you from great thing, because you don’t understand it
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By Dodik 2024-09-26 05:56:35
I thought we were being real?
'Human being' describes less than half of our playerbase. The majority is controlled by addons or scripts. They don't care that manual target works fine for a real person playing, they want something that addresses their issue.
You are arguing a point no one brought up but you, therefor you are arguing with yourself. Have fun with that.
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By Seun 2024-09-26 06:19:32
The send addon and all its variations still count as "manual"
Automatic that self-identifies as manual. Sure, why not.
You are arguing a point no one brought up but you, therefor you are arguing with yourself. Have fun with that.
I agreed with what you said Dodik, but a single person manually controlling one account isn't an accurate reflection of FFXI.
By Lili 2024-09-26 08:53:13
The send addon and all its variations still count as "manual"
Automatic that self-identifies as manual. Sure, why not.
You're either thinking about a different addon, or don't know what send does, or know something that I don't about the addon even tho I rewrote it.
Send doesn't do anything automatically, it just lets you send text commands to another character running on the same PC. So you can make a Fire macro that casts on your character or another Fire macro that casts on your other character. There's no automation of any sort.
By Seun 2024-09-26 10:11:27
There's no automation of any sort.
You're right. It's not automatic, but it's also not manual. I should have been more specific.
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By Fenrir.Niflheim 2024-09-26 10:14:21
You're right. It's not automatic, but it's also not manual. I should have been more specific.
It is manual it is just not "direct input" which might better describe your argument. You want people to directly input actions into the game through the intended mechanism or put another way you want them to play the game the way it was intended.
 Carbuncle.Nynja
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By Carbuncle.Nynja 2024-09-26 10:16:51
I hope you dont use macros with more than one line, because thats not manual.
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Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-09-26 10:29:40
If I have 18 instances of ffxi up, how many commands would //send @all cure <me> create?
Carbuncle.Nynja
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By Carbuncle.Nynja 2024-09-26 10:42:54
You are MANUALLY sending a command to all 18 instances
If you want to argue that it is an action not native to the vanilla client, thats another thing, but citing it as "automation" is incorrect.
A macro consisting of:
/equipset #wsgear
/ws “weaponskill” <t> <wait 1>
/equipset #tpgear
Is more automation than using send.
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Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-09-26 10:45:02
I am manually sending 1 command and some kind of computer software is duplicating my command between 1 and infinity times on my behalf.
By Drayco 2024-09-26 11:04:07
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By Seun 2024-09-26 11:18:37
You're right. It's not automatic, but it's also not manual. I should have been more specific.
It is manual it is just not "direct input" which might better describe your argument. You want people to directly input actions into the game through the intended mechanism or put another way you want them to play the game the way it was intended.
Personally, I would call cycling through instances and inputting commands, manual. It doesn't have anything to do with how I would or wouldn't want people to play the game.
I think if we wanted to be technical about it, we could probably just call it IBS.
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By Fenrir.Niflheim 2024-09-26 11:58:08
we could probably just call it IBS. Clarification needed, what do you mean by IBS? i assume you are not referring to the unfortunate chronic illness
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »I am manually sending 1 command and some kind of computer software is duplicating my command between 1 and infinity times on my behalf. I am not sure what point you are arguing, the phrasing makes it sound like you are for send = bot/automatic but the statement does not really say anything related to the argument it just states a fact but does not argue how that fact supports your stance.
Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-09-26 12:03:01
OK, let's try this again.
Imagine there's a crafting addon that allows you to do /craft 100 chocobo fletchings. Is this automation? All it does is convert your 1 *manual* input into 100 inputs.
All send does is turn your 1 *manual* input into 18 inputs. Not automation, somehow?
Or is the crafting addon also not automation? Does the inputs being in serial vs parallel somehow make a difference?
You explain how it's NOT automation, please.
By Drayco 2024-09-26 12:03:47
If you walk away, send will not do anything.
automation
noun
1
: the technique of making an apparatus, a process, or a system operate automatically
*I pulled that from Webster, but I really don't like they used the root word in the definition. It should define what automatic(automatically) means as well.
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Carbuncle.Nynja
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By Carbuncle.Nynja 2024-09-26 12:09:27
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »OK, let's try this again.
Imagine there's a crafting addon that allows you to do /craft 100 chocobo fletchings. Is this automation? All it does is convert your 1 *manual* input into 100 inputs.
All send does is turn your 1 *manual* input into 18 inputs. Not automation, somehow?
Or is the crafting addon also not automation? Does the inputs being in serial vs parallel somehow make a difference?
You explain how it's NOT automation, please. /lastsynth<wait 24>
/lastsynth<wait 24>
/lastsynth<wait 24>
/lastsynth<wait 24>
/lastsynth<wait 24>
/lastsynth
I can now automate 6 synths while I take a piss or get a drink.
I'm pretty sure that should work atleast, I dont use windower macros in such a way.
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By Fenrir.Niflheim 2024-09-26 12:10:00
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »OK, let's try this again.
Imagine there's a crafting addon that allows you to do /craft 100 chocobo fletchings. Is this automation? All it does is convert your 1 *manual* input into 100 inputs.
All send does is turn your 1 *manual* input into 18 inputs. Not automation, somehow?
Or is the crafting addon also not automation? Does the inputs being in serial vs parallel somehow make a difference?
You explain how it's NOT automation, please.
swap out the craft command for a ingame macro that runs the ingame command lastsynth with some delay, do you feel that is still automated?
ultimately I do believe it is reasonable to argue craft is automation after all it actual does evaluate variables between each synth like space you have and materials you have to decide if it should continue.
but send does not do that it just passes a command to other instances.
Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-09-26 12:10:23
Quote: Automation is the application of technology, programs, robotics or processes to achieve outcomes with minimal human input.
If you put a formula into Excel to calculate the difference between two cells it will AUTOMATICALLY update the difference if you change those two values. This setting in Excel is called formula calcuation with two options:
AUTOMATIC and manual.
If you walk away from the keyboard, it won't do anything. It's still defined by Microsoft as being automatic.
Carbuncle.Nynja
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By Carbuncle.Nynja 2024-09-26 12:12:59
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »If you put a formula into Excel to calculate the difference between two cells it will AUTOMATICALLY update the difference if you change those two values. Still requires the manual trigger of updating one of the cells with new information.
Unless you are pulling data from a third party source.
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »If you walk away from the keyboard, it won't do anything. It's still defined by Microsoft as being automatic. If you walk away from the keyboard, then the cell is not changing and the other cells with formulas have nothing to update accordingly.
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By Fenrir.Niflheim 2024-09-26 12:17:12
The big line in the fuzzy grey sand for windower is,
Under this, superwarp is not a bot, craft is not a bot, auto echoes is a bot.
For a clear example lets say we have an addon that rotates your char to avoid glare moves
If that addon rotates you when you send the command /lookaway, it is not a bot.
If that addon detects the monster using a glare move and AUTOMATICLLY rotates your char it is a bot.
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Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-09-26 12:18:08
swap out the craft command for a ingame macro that runs the ingame command lastsynth with some delay, do you feel that is still automated?
Yes it is, obviously, automation. The difference, of course, being that I have never claimed that FFXI doesn't include automation, however:
Send doesn't do anything automatically If you walk away from the keyboard, then the cell is not changing and the other cells with formulas have nothing to update accordingly.
You've just said my point again. This is automation (by definition) and yet it doesn't do anything if you're AFK. When you do inputs, however, it will AUTOMATE your calculations for you. It will, with minimal input from a human, do potentially incredibly complicated calculations, display charts, or whatever else you want it to do. AUTOMATICALLY. This is automation because the human isn't updating the charts, or the other cells, that's happening AUTOMATICALLY, without any additional action on the part of the human. The computer software is the thing taking those actions.
Have you got it yet?
By Seun 2024-09-26 12:20:54
we could probably just call it IBS. Clarification needed, what do you mean by IBS? i assume you are not referring to the unfortunate chronic illness
IBS - Input Broadcasting Software
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By Fenrir.Niflheim 2024-09-26 12:21:05
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Have you got it yet? Your argument seems to imply that this is your stance:
a pilot flying a plane that uses fly by wire is not flying a plane, the computer is flying the plane "automatically", the pilot just inputs command into the computer that then controls how it flies the plane.
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Look I'm not trying to gatekeep here, everyone wants the community in this game to be the best it can be and that means helping beginners evolve into veterans.
However, I saw this thread on Reddit today about WoW and it really reminded me of my experience in FFXI lately: https://old.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1fl6az3/wow_has_a_problem_where_everyone_wants_to_do_hard/
"WoW has a problem where everyone wants to do hard content but only 5% of those people want to put in the absolute bare minimum amount of effort required to do that content"
I feel like this accurately describes modern FFXI as well. The last few linkshells I've gotten into that actually did events, it was roughly 3 or 4 veteran players who knew what they were doing and had a solid spread of jobs with adequate gear and knew how to play them, then 10-15 somewhat newer players who have absolutely nothing except one or two DD jobs which they claim are "pretty well geared" but are actually rocking a Kaja weapon and fulltiming Ambuscade armor. These players go quiet the moment folks mention that we need a COR, BRD, GEO, WHM, etc in order to do the content they're wanting to do. Same when directly encouraged to level a job that can contribute at events without top-end gear, they just kind of go quiet and weeks/months later they're still doing the same thing: asking to come on their crappy NIN because they "need to get better gear." (Hint: DD jobs need better gear than anyone else in the group. Literally ANY other job will be easier to contribute with than the one job newbies all want to play which is DD.) These people are trying to dive into Odyssey/Sortie/etc (the hardest content in the game) to get the more advanced rewards while still being unable to contribute in intermediate content that they regularly get carried through. It's completely out of order!
New players: We want to help you. We really do. But carrying dead weight gets old pretty fast. This game has a progression, it doesn't "start" once you reach the peak of performance. It basically starts when you hit Lv99. If you're 99, you are IN the prime of the game. Be patient and build yourself up brick by brick. Enjoy the journey.
Research the content. Research what builds people are doing the content with. Level and gear more than one role so that a melee job isn't the only thing you have to offer. Research how those jobs are played. ASK QUESTIONS, don't just quietly join and assume all you have to do is wack stuff with your weapon. Ask about strategy if you don't know. Ask what your job needs in order to be "good enough" for that content if you don't know.
Yes, you'll get some elitist pricks who just don't want to deal with you. Don't let that discourage you, you still did the right thing by outing yourself as a beginner. FFXI also has a fantastic base of extremely helpful players who will spend hours helping you and ask nothing in return, but we're going to lose interest pretty fast if you aren't proactive about trying to contribute. So don't take advantage of helpful players; try to find ways to make it easier for them to help you, most importantly by having a job that can support them in some way while you're with them.
FFXI players, for the most part, love helping people and are some of the most awesome and helpful MMO players around, but if you make helping you as difficult as possible then you're going to have a harder time finding willing help.
Thanks and God bless
-Perg
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