Duban needs to come down that list some. Its a great shield but everything gets tanked just fine with other shield options or RUN.
Kusanagi needs to come up Mumei is SAMs strongest WS and scales great with SAM incredible TP gain.
Foenaria can come down too, the gimic is incredible but not always applicable.
Prime WS Information, Testing, Discussion
Prime WS Information, Testing, Discussion
Taint said: »
Foenaria can come down too, the gimic is incredible but not always applicable.
Nah, beside that gimmick it also opens DRK to powerful Light skillchains and it's a top dps pick at the same time. Not only Ws damage is top tier, but also 6%TA is best feature among Primes. Maybe if you expend that to A+, but then nothing would be in S, unless you delete S+ and put flute in S then.
SimonSes said: »
Taint said: »
Foenaria can come down too, the gimic is incredible but not always applicable.
Nah, beside that gimmick it also opens DRK to powerful Light skillchains and it's a top dps pick at the same time. Not only Ws damage is top tier, but also 6%TA is best feature among Primes. Maybe if you expend that to A+, but then nothing would be in S, unless you delete S+ and put flute in S then.
Yeah the whole S+ needs to go. Horn is S. A lot of them fit into "A".
I need to play with you sometime, the Stage 5 Scythes aren't keeping up with my WAR using a combo of Chango and Helheim in sortie.
Every ranking of every weapon is pointless.
It's S if you use it. Not if someone tells you it is. Stop being lemmings.
It's not a fighting game with 8 frame unblockables and unsafe throws. There are no tiers. Only will you or won't you use it.
It's S if you use it. Not if someone tells you it is. Stop being lemmings.
It's not a fighting game with 8 frame unblockables and unsafe throws. There are no tiers. Only will you or won't you use it.
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Taint said: »
SimonSes said: »
Taint said: »
Foenaria can come down too, the gimic is incredible but not always applicable.
Nah, beside that gimmick it also opens DRK to powerful Light skillchains and it's a top dps pick at the same time. Not only Ws damage is top tier, but also 6%TA is best feature among Primes. Maybe if you expend that to A+, but then nothing would be in S, unless you delete S+ and put flute in S then.
Yeah the whole S+ needs to go. Horn is S. A lot of them fit into "A".
I need to play with you sometime, the Stage 5 Scythes aren't keeping up with my WAR using a combo of Chango and Helheim in sortie.
I'm nowhere near stage 5. My group broke several months ago. I'm building 6box to go back to grind, but with small breaks to enjoy other games too :P
Also I'm not even sure If I would push for scythe first, despite my opinion about it. I have at least 3 other contenders for very different reasons.
Dagger, because I love DNC, it's useful for many jobs and I just enjoy fast swings.
H2H simply because MNK is just my favorite lore theme in everything I play, watch.
Gun/Bow, because I enjoy white damage the most :D
Taint said: »
Stage 5 Scythes aren't keeping up with my WAR using a combo of Chango and Helheim in sortie.
In my experience it has been SAM > WAR > DRK (not including skillchain dmg which I admit is unfair since SAM SC dmg is many times higher than the other two so in reality it's even further ahead but I digress: usually the dmg difference between SAM DRK is around 100-400k with the dmg difference between WAR DRK being 100-200k) Haven't tried with a MNK so not sure how that compares. SAM WS frequency and ease of capped dmg during Yaeg (in general on the ones susceptible to hybrids; really like Jinpu on A/E and Kagero on C/G) makes it tear so much *** on Aita and Gartell.
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Our WAR and DRK in sortie tend to parse 1:1 but they both change weapons on different bosses. I think they are all good weapons, just situationally need to adapt due to SC properties in Sortie. Also having another option in Sheol Gaol for avoiding ws wall is great.
Due to sc properties WAR doesn't use Laphria at all really, but DRK does use Foenaria quite often. If we did BF boss, Laphria would come into play, but distortion and darkness are less favourable/avoidable imo for ACDEGH which is our usual +random other things along the way.
Due to sc properties WAR doesn't use Laphria at all really, but DRK does use Foenaria quite often. If we did BF boss, Laphria would come into play, but distortion and darkness are less favourable/avoidable imo for ACDEGH which is our usual +random other things along the way.
Sylph.Pve said: »
inb4 "Just pick one for your favorite job" or "tierlists are dumb"
SimonSes said: »
I have helheim and gae buide. I would rate gae buide an S - you dont really need to think about any other polearm again tbh. Only really thing I can think of is sonic thrust with trish but even then if you are cleaving you are probably benefiting from pdl. Diarmuid 99ks probably the easiest of all prime melee ws outside of sp abilities(recognising a lot of that is from drg native but we dont need to discuss that being a drg only weapon), and has solid sc's with other strong polearm ws.
Helheim being on 4 jobs definately bumps it up a rank, but you will certainly be switching it out fairly often. On A3 V25 I get better dps with caladbolg etc. Warcry+MS fimbul spam is great fun.
We do low man 8 boss sortie runs with kusanagi SAM as the only person engaged on all 8. Pretty S tier material imo.
Taint said: »
Duban needs to come down that list some. Its a great shield but everything gets tanked just fine with other shield options or RUN.
Agree Taint. I want it one day but I dont see how it would change much beyond keeping tp/shield swap laziness.
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Taint said: »
Duban needs to come down that list some. Its a great shield but everything gets tanked just fine with other shield options or RUN.
I mean, I don't disagree with this statement but TBH you could apply the exact same logic to all prime weapons.
Quote:
Kusanagi needs to come down that list some. It's a great GKT but everything gets killed just fine with other GKT options or WAR
Honestly, these things are all fluff so accusing the shield specifically of not being *needed* to clear content feels kinda weird to me. It's a very common sentiment, but I don't think people put a mirror to it and think about it from the perspective of the DPS weapons, for some reason.
I'd say the tiering these weapons is pretty silly, TBH. All of them have PDL which makes them strongest in fully buffed situations, all of them have new SC properties previously unavailable to that weapon type, all of them have the ability to self-SC with only their WS, all of them have a new WS which helps prevent you from WS walling (yourself or others). Other than Staff, Club, Horn, and Shield, I think what the weapons bring to the table is extremely similar. I'm sure some are "more betterer" than others compared to the other REMA the job has in their arsenal, but I don't think that makes much of a difference if you're a hardcore XXX who wants to do the best they can at their job.
S tier: Horn
A tier: Shield, Gun, Bow, Staff, GKT, GS, Polearm, Scythe, Axe, H2H, Sword, Dagger, Katana, GA
B tier: Club
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GKT is very good with WAR as the other DD in Sortie, makes SAM better than taking DRK and 2nd DD then IMO.
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Taint said: »
Duban needs to come down that list some. Its a great shield but everything gets tanked just fine with other shield options or RUN.
I mean, I don't disagree with this statement but TBH you could apply the exact same logic to all prime weapons.
Quote:
Kusanagi needs to come down that list some. It's a great GKT but everything gets killed just fine with other GKT options or WAR
Honestly, these things are all fluff so accusing the shield specifically of not being *needed* to clear content feels kinda weird to me. It's a very common sentiment, but I don't think people put a mirror to it and think about it from the perspective of the DPS weapons, for some reason.
I'd say the tiering these weapons is pretty silly, TBH. All of them have PDL which makes them strongest in fully buffed situations, all of them have new SC properties previously unavailable to that weapon type, all of them have the ability to self-SC with only their WS, all of them have a new WS which helps prevent you from WS walling (yourself or others). Other than Staff, Club, Horn, and Shield, I think what the weapons bring to the table is extremely similar. I'm sure some are "more betterer" than others compared to the other REMA the job has in their arsenal, but I don't think that makes much of a difference if you're a hardcore XXX who wants to do the best they can at their job.
S tier: Horn
A tier: Shield, Gun, Bow, Staff, GKT, GS, Polearm, Scythe, Axe, H2H, Sword, Dagger, Katana, GA
B tier: Club
My opinion on the shield is:
You only need stage 2/3 to get the functionality you really want out of it. Uber block rate. Taking it to stage 5 doesn't invalidate Aegis in any way, you'll still switch to Aegis in any situation where you're taking either massive, or consistent magic damage you are going to use Aegis. It literally 1/2s damage in relation to Duban. Said another way, Duban take 100% more magic damage than Aegis at stage 5. That's the difference between 75% MDT and 87.5% MDT.
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
My opinion on the shield is:
You only need stage 2/3 to get the functionality you really want out of it. Uber block rate. Taking it to stage 5 doesn't invalidate Aegis in any way, you'll still switch to Aegis in any situation where you're taking either massive, or consistent magic damage you are going to use Aegis. It literally 1/2s damage in relation to Duban.
You only need stage 2/3 to get the functionality you really want out of it. Uber block rate. Taking it to stage 5 doesn't invalidate Aegis in any way, you'll still switch to Aegis in any situation where you're taking either massive, or consistent magic damage you are going to use Aegis. It literally 1/2s damage in relation to Duban.
I think this is a lot of people's opinions, but IMO this is short-sighted because it pretends that mobs only do physical OR magical damage, and completely ignores mobs giving negative status effects and it also removes the min-maxing from the equation entirely. Stage 4/5 are just straight up better than stage 2/3, so...IDK, it goes back to my previous argument. A stage 4 GKT is "Good enough" to clear content, why not stop there? If a stage 3 shield is "good enough" to clear content, why not stop there?
...because you want to have the best, not just "Good enough". The fact of the matter is, basically every boss you fight in this game will do some kind of magic damage, and while you may still use Aegis for some which primarily/exclusively do magic damage, you'll still find that this shield helps very significantly for *everything else in the game* so...IDK I think it's extremely strong. There also aren't very many enemies which exclusively do magic damage.
edit: I think if you have every shield in the game on PLD, you'll be using prime stage 5 98% of the time, and making that shield as strong as possible is to the benefit of the PLD.
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
My opinion on the shield is:
You only need stage 2/3 to get the functionality you really want out of it. Uber block rate. Taking it to stage 5 doesn't invalidate Aegis in any way, you'll still switch to Aegis in any situation where you're taking either massive, or consistent magic damage you are going to use Aegis. It literally 1/2s damage in relation to Duban.
You only need stage 2/3 to get the functionality you really want out of it. Uber block rate. Taking it to stage 5 doesn't invalidate Aegis in any way, you'll still switch to Aegis in any situation where you're taking either massive, or consistent magic damage you are going to use Aegis. It literally 1/2s damage in relation to Duban.
I think this is a lot of people's opinions, but IMO this is short-sighted because it pretends that mobs only do physical OR magical damage, and completely ignores mobs giving negative status effects and it also removes the min-maxing from the equation entirely. Stage 4/5 are just straight up better than stage 2/3, so...IDK, it goes back to my previous argument. A stage 4 GKT is "Good enough" to clear content, why not stop there? If a stage 3 shield is "good enough" to clear content, why not stop there?
...because you want to have the best, not just "Good enough". The fact of the matter is, basically every boss you fight in this game will do some kind of magic damage, and while you may still use Aegis for some which primarily/exclusively do magic damage, you'll still find that this shield helps very significantly for *everything else in the game* so...IDK I think it's extremely strong. There also aren't very many enemies which exclusively do magic damage.
I just mean in terms of rating it. It's hard to rate a stage 5 as an S when the biggest benefit of the shield comes from Stage 1-2 or Stage 2-3.
It seems like a no brainer that if you're making the shield, you should absolutely take it all the way imo.
You're argument is very reductive. Do you need to R15 Empyreans? No of course not. I've literally beat all content in the game (Except new MT) where my only R15 REMA is Chango (which I didn't use in any of it).
Horn is S imo because it provides a new song that is very powerful that you can't use anywhere else. Stage 5 is almost required just by virtue of the fact that its super annoying at stage 4 with the weakened duration. It also can replace 2 entire instruments (not really, gjallarhorn still bis for debuffs, daur still bis for aoe).
Duban replaces Ochain (and Srivasta for Protect). Stop.
Edit: I think in the current meta of the game, you're looking at closer to 60/40 Duban vs. Aegis. Not 98%.
Sortie is pretty much full time Aegis (if you're doing pld).
Gaol is pretty much 50/50. Bosses like Kalunga are going to be Aegis. Mboze and Arebati are Duban.
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
Sortie is pretty much full time Aegis (if you're doing pld).
Gaol is pretty much 50/50. Bosses like Kalunga are going to be Aegis. Mboze and Arebati are Duban.
Gaol is pretty much 50/50. Bosses like Kalunga are going to be Aegis. Mboze and Arebati are Duban.
How much are you going to use Aegis for Omen, Vagary, master trials, Ambuscade, Dynamis [D], seg farm?
Also, mobs that aren't T3 exist. Are you using Aegis for Procne, Henwen, Gogmagog, etc? The vast majority of what PLD does is block physical damage.
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
Gaol is pretty much 50/50. Bosses like Kalunga are going to be Aegis. Mboze and Arebati are Duban.
It also came with some notable benefits, like blocking all his hits, and preventing the add effect stun. Sadly, blocking Searing Serration still doesn't prevent the all stats down... Stupid hybrid ws and their magic hit. But it does reduce the first hit damage, and thus the second hit.
Also, note that our strat... pretty much abandons the PLD in terms of buff support. Lots of multiboxing. Once I get dispelled, I get nothing unless I cast it myself, or cast it from my WHM alt. Don't even recast barspells. <,< So I'm not riding Carols or scherzo to survive here.
I'm not sure I'd say it's better to use Duban vs Aegis. I think Aegis is still safer. Less chance of death from a oneshot, or during dangerous moments with weakened HP. But I did find it less annoying. <,<;
Ahhh, SE. Why couldn't you have just put 40% MDT II on Duban, so we could put Aegis in storage...
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K123 said: »
Helheim is S tier because usable on WAR DRK RUN.
Dumb.... job flexibility does not make a weapon S tier. All three have access to better/stronger options.
Godfry said: »
Opashoro is S+ tier. Amazing for all 3 jobs that cab use it,
Dumb.... If nukes weren't capped I'd agree. You can hit 99,999 with a half a dozen available staves in the current meta content. Again, flexibility does not propel a weapon to S tier status.
SimonSes said: »
Kusanagi is definitely A+. It's strongest SAM weapon and opens new skillchain options for both solo and group. It would be S with stp+10 instead of da+10.
Agreed. Great Katana should be A tier. That's the only one I really disagree with.
That tier list is mostly on point. Especially the S+ and S ranks.
Welp, always happens at some point when threads start getting too much info and not enough drama....somebody gotta make a list and everyone loses their ***.
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
Sortie is pretty much full time Aegis (if you're doing pld).
Gaol is pretty much 50/50. Bosses like Kalunga are going to be Aegis. Mboze and Arebati are Duban.
Gaol is pretty much 50/50. Bosses like Kalunga are going to be Aegis. Mboze and Arebati are Duban.
How much are you going to use Aegis for Omen, Vagary, master trials, Ambuscade, Dynamis [D], seg farm?
Also, mobs that aren't T3 exist. Are you using Aegis for Procne, Henwen, Gogmagog, etc? The vast majority of what PLD does is block physical damage.
I'm sorry, did I have to list 100% of use cases? My bad. Sorry I couldn't provide every single instance where you'd choose one or the other.
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
Sortie is pretty much full time Aegis (if you're doing pld).
Gaol is pretty much 50/50. Bosses like Kalunga are going to be Aegis. Mboze and Arebati are Duban.
Gaol is pretty much 50/50. Bosses like Kalunga are going to be Aegis. Mboze and Arebati are Duban.
How much are you going to use Aegis for Omen, Vagary, master trials, Ambuscade, Dynamis [D], seg farm?
Also, mobs that aren't T3 exist. Are you using Aegis for Procne, Henwen, Gogmagog, etc? The vast majority of what PLD does is block physical damage.
I'm sorry, did I have to list 100% of use cases? My bad. Sorry I couldn't provide every single instance where you'd choose one or the other.
I mean, you can list whatever you want, but if you're trying to determine the % of the time a PLD would use a shield, it probably helps to determine your percentages while thinking about the whole game and not just (a third of) two events.
I'd also say a proper PLD should be using Duban for 90% of Sortie too, and then (maybe) swap to Aegis for the bosses. The vast majority of Odyssey bosses and all segment farm runs are Duban. Aegis makes up a TINY fraction of PLD use cases, nowhere remotely close to 40%.
Quote:
Kusanagi is definitely A+. It's strongest SAM weapon and opens new skillchain options for both solo and group. It would be S with stp+10 instead of da+10.
Yes, I thought the same immediately when it came out. Such a missed opportunity and storetp good with the class theme. Double Attack really? Sam forum has been showing that DA is like the last stat a Sam needs. If it had been Triple Attack +5, that would have been real explosive.
But, apparently not needed and endgame Sam finishes strong.
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Bahamut.Celebrindal said: »
Welp, always happens at some point when threads start getting too much info and not enough drama....somebody gotta make a list and everyone loses their ***.
Yup here it comes. Thank you everyone who contributed. This thread was good for a long time.
Since it's going downhill anyways, where do I submit a bug report that they forgot to add Fencer +3~5 on Caliburnus?
IDK how to even begin to fix Katana, way outside of my wheelhouse.
Hopalong said: »
If it had been Triple Attack +5
It's actually TA+6% on last stage, which makes it even more unbalanced.
Phoenix.Iocus said: »
IDK how to even begin to fix Katana, way outside of my wheelhouse.
Make it a light sided hybrid, or like most of the other katana ws' bump up the ftp a bit.
But nins a tank* and a nuker* so thats the balance i guess
*in very niche scenerios/just for fun
Just give Zesho Meppo 2 or 3 more fTP at 3k. The rest of Dokoku is fine as is. It still won't beat naegling for pure physical damage output but it'll be closer and won't feel as bad. Will never dethrone Heishi for hybrids (which is good, weapon variety should exist)
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
Sortie is pretty much full time Aegis (if you're doing pld).
Gaol is pretty much 50/50. Bosses like Kalunga are going to be Aegis. Mboze and Arebati are Duban.
Gaol is pretty much 50/50. Bosses like Kalunga are going to be Aegis. Mboze and Arebati are Duban.
How much are you going to use Aegis for Omen, Vagary, master trials, Ambuscade, Dynamis [D], seg farm?
Also, mobs that aren't T3 exist. Are you using Aegis for Procne, Henwen, Gogmagog, etc? The vast majority of what PLD does is block physical damage.
I'm sorry, did I have to list 100% of use cases? My bad. Sorry I couldn't provide every single instance where you'd choose one or the other.
I mean, you can list whatever you want, but if you're trying to determine the % of the time a PLD would use a shield, it probably helps to determine your percentages while thinking about the whole game and not just (a third of) two events.
I'd also say a proper PLD should be using Duban for 90% of Sortie too, and then (maybe) swap to Aegis for the bosses. The vast majority of Odyssey bosses and all segment farm runs are Duban. Aegis makes up a TINY fraction of PLD use cases, nowhere remotely close to 40%.
I agree its Duban 90%+ of the time, but does it matter if its stage 2,3,4 or 5? Not really unless its master trials.
Duban is too strong at stage 2 and they missed the mark at stage 5 where it should have dethroned Aegis.
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Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Just give Zesho Meppo 2 or 3 more fTP at 3k. The rest of Dokoku is fine as is. It still won't beat naegling for pure physical damage output but it'll be closer and won't feel as bad. Will never dethrone Heishi for hybrids (which is good, weapon variety should exist)
I dislike the treatment for 1h weapon entirely. They should have lower fTP and higher WSC like the rest. 1h weapon have less base damage, so WSC is very important in rising damage. Also MLs, booost-stat, songs, +5 stat between weapon stages all feel like they barely do anything, which is lame af.
I sincerely hope the numbers I gave for Maru Kala are true and it's more like 2h Prime WSs. At least that would be saved.
[+]
Taint said: »
I agree its Duban 90%+ of the time, but does it matter if its stage 2,3,4 or 5? Not really unless its master trials.
Duban is too strong at stage 2 and they missed the mark at stage 5 where it should have dethroned Aegis.
Duban is too strong at stage 2 and they missed the mark at stage 5 where it should have dethroned Aegis.
I agree that it's too strong at stage 2, but I don't agree with the rest.
If a shield is going to be used 90%+ of the time you're on PLD, it's worthwhile to improve the stats of that shield, and I think the increased stats (meva, status resist, DEF, shield skill, VIT, MDT) are all valuable for PLD. This is why I made the Stage 4 -> Stage 5 comments w/r/t other primes. You don't stop at stage 4 because it's usable, you go to stage 5 because it's better and you're trying to improve your job.
I also disagree on the dethroning Aegis thing. I think with both the horn and the shield they did a brilliant job of making the new items extremely powerful and desireable while still not invalidating any of the previous REMA which is great design. As much as people want to save 1 wardrobe space, it feels good (and very in keeping with FFXI's design) that previously useful items remain useful and having horizontal gear progression rather than vertical.
The virtue of FFXI is a player can set themselves apart from other players by knowing which gear is more optimal in which situations and adjust their sets/playstyle for the circumstances they're in and making a "one item to rule them all" situation would eliminate that entirely.
SimonSes said: »
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Just give Zesho Meppo 2 or 3 more fTP at 3k. The rest of Dokoku is fine as is. It still won't beat naegling for pure physical damage output but it'll be closer and won't feel as bad. Will never dethrone Heishi for hybrids (which is good, weapon variety should exist)
I dislike the treatment for 1h weapon entirely. They should have lower fTP and higher WSC like the rest. 1h weapon have less base damage, so WSC is very important in rising damage. Also MLs, booost-stat, songs, +5 stat between weapon stages all feel like they barely do anything, which is lame af.
I sincerely hope the numbers I gave for Maru Kala are true and it's more like 2h Prime WSs. At least that would be saved.
I'm not a math guru like you but I wonder if they did this because 1h primes can use a TP bonus weapon where the 2h can't. 1h prime + TP bonus offhand must be insane, considering how strong they made the TP scaling for these?
SimonSes said: »
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Just give Zesho Meppo 2 or 3 more fTP at 3k. The rest of Dokoku is fine as is. It still won't beat naegling for pure physical damage output but it'll be closer and won't feel as bad. Will never dethrone Heishi for hybrids (which is good, weapon variety should exist)
I dislike the treatment for 1h weapon entirely. They should have lower fTP and higher WSC like the rest. 1h weapon have less base damage, so WSC is very important in rising damage. Also MLs, booost-stat, songs, +5 stat between weapon stages all feel like they barely do anything, which is lame af.
I sincerely hope the numbers I gave for Maru Kala are true and it's more like 2h Prime WSs. At least that would be saved.
Yeah I've been saying this since the beginning. 1h primes across the board got shafted (some definitely worse than others though) and the response has always been "but 1h weapons get tp bonus offhand so it offsets the difference!"
No it doesn't. 1h jobs have no hope of competing with 2h jobs for damage output, and for NIN and THF that particularly sucks since their utility is minimal or nonexistent in most high end content.
I really don't care what anyone's opinion on it is, the idea that an ambuscade weapon that takes as little as an afternoon to complete completely destroys every single NIN REMA for physical damage is asinine and there is no justification for it. Skillchaining can pull something like Heishi or Dokoku ahead sometimes But skillchaining isn't always possible, advisable, or something that does damage at all, not to mention the prevalence of WS walls in current endgame content means being another Savage Blade user is actively detrimental to the group meaning NIN gets to either do *** damage or just sit out entirely.
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