Prime WS Information, Testing, Discussion

Yeah, that's the spirit of a person that truly enjoys WAR. War Naegling makes it the most boring DD in the game. Im going to make Laphria cause I just can't stand it.

I just wanted to point out that Euvedant had a valid point and wasn't off from the thread goal.

@maletaru did you leave this part out cause it doesn't fit your narrative? Looks like MSNBC reporter.

Caring just about the raw DPS without skillchains, Stage 5 Laphria /sam is just slightly ahead of Naegling Savage /drg, if the scenario is Sortie basement bosses with Aria, Warcry and capped attack. Taking into account a margin of error I would say they are break even.

Now there is at least few things here that will change the outcome:
- WS walling other savage users or being walled by other savage users. Remember that using Savage Blade on WAR not only adds up to WS wall for Savage, but also using other WS break the WS wall for Savage, so it can be really impactful, especially in scenario where there is only 4 people WSing - BRD, COR, WAR and 2nd DD
- Haste Samba from either BRD or COR going /dnc or 2nd DD being DNC will push Naegling Savage ahead. Keep in mind Samba also improves dps of Laphria, because Hasso doesn't full cap on it's own. 5% Samba will only push Naegling like ~4.5% ahead, but 10% Samba will push it like ~17.5%
- using SPs on H and G can potentially push both WSs to 99k (normally Savage is higher WS damage, because of all the TP bonus and /drg) and then Laphria will take a lead, because of better melee damage and higher WS frequency UNLESS Naegling is getting that 10% Samba, then they are break even again.


100% this. Recently I switched Moonshade just for fun and I had fun indeed. I enjoyed seeing that ~46k crit (single hit, not the whole attack round) with Ukon more than anything else damage related in this game.

Sorry, maybe I missed the part where this changes the comparison between Laphria and Naegling. Could you point that out?

If I said:
but you feel like the grape vs strawberry comparison requires more nuance, it would be pretty stupid of me to point out that I did, in fact, also talk about Nutella and wasn't implying that grape jelly was the only thing you could eat with peanut butter.

This post says:
-If SC aren't viable, use Naegling 100% of the time no matter what
-If the other DDs are using Savage Blade, use Chango 100% of the time because Light
-If the other DDs are doing Distortion, use Laphria

I think this completely misses the nuance of the job and the weapons, including the things I said (delay differences, retaliation) plus others (Making Darkness, white damage) and boils the entire comparison down to seg farms and WSavgs, and frankly doesn't even do a great job of making those comparisons.

I wouldn't judge a weapon based on just one person's account. Euvedant may have laphria but so do I, and from my experiences it's just as good as naegling, and at stage 5 I expect it to come out ahead. Judging a weapons worth based solely on the parse is a bad metric. We already know that a large amount of parse data is overkill damage. I've gone into sheol C and cleared every mob in the zone with two warriors, and both of us did 6.5-7 million damage. I've also gone in and left two or three groups of mobs alive with a samurai that put up over 9 million damage and my warrior doing over 7 and a half in that particular run. The support put up similar damage in each run, and the total amount of mobs hp is going to be relatively the same between one run and another. The better run was the one with the two warriors despite the run with the samurai having bigger overall parse numbers. That number bloat is just overkill damage.

Laphria is similar to Ukonvasara in that it deals a ton of white damage. With the build I posted on the previous page I swing a couple times and that chunks a mob down to the point a disaster kills it off even at 1800-2k range. There's less overkill damage, but it's clean and effecient. The difference of truly capped weapon delay with hasso versus not truly capping haste with a fencer build does factor into things. A /sam great axe build swings about 45% faster than a fencer build. Laphria has a higher potential celing than naegling does too. I do notice the soul voiced aria songs my bard gives me on floor 3. My disasters go up noticably over the first 2 floors with the better songs. The triple damage proc you get with stage 5 is very comparable to having a permanent level 1 empyrean aftermath, and I do notice the PDL aftermath. I've never swung an ukon but I've got both chango and laphria and between the two I would much prefer using laphria over the former. Chango is fantastic for skillchains, but if you're just going ham and spamming weaponskills then laphria is a much better alternative. It's got raw power, and a lot of it.

Cele and I are hitting 7.3-7.6m as war in ody C, I’ve seen a taru drg/nin do the kraken club for 10m+. Idk, I just wanted to give the people in the game my opinion about laphria. Do what you must, if you want to grind out all that ghally for it. The prime great katana is amazing.

GA also has Armor break and full break, which are very valuable endgame. Yes, you can break then swap but at a DPS cost. Warcry is also a larger boost to damage for Disaster than it would be for savage.

To be fair to Euvadant, he never mentioned parse. Parse is* typically brought into discussion by people arguing in favor of GA, rarely by people in favor of Naegling.

TBH segfarm should never be brought into these types of discussions. 2 wars with Naegling do full clear with ~10mins left on the clock (I've heard JP group doing 18). So what's the point of making Laphria? Even if Laphria beats Naegling by 10x damage, it doesn't have a increase segments earned by 50% property.

These weapons are situational and I doubt people will make Laphria because they want more segs.

Someone go kill AMAN using prime gkt and ml30+

True, but in scenario like Sortie bosses, where support jobs should /dnc or if your partner DD is DNC, then it's whole other story. Also if we are talking about ceiling.. If you apply Haste Samba, Might Strikes, SV Aria etc. Farsha is the one with highest potential probably, with melee damage significantly above Laphria stage 5 and still should reach 99k with Calamity.

Wouldn't Fimbulvetr be a better thing to compare Disaster against? Why take the GA when you can take the GS!

GA looks to be slightly ahead in sheet (assuming all the WS details are accurate). Also if you ever in scenario where you want to self darkness on WAR and avoid WS wall, GS doesn't allow for that at all. GA has Disaster > KJ > Disaster.

Laphria competes with Chango not naegling, and Chango is just all around better. The entire reason I went with Prime GS over GAXE was to add flavor to a weapon class that hadn't been getting some love, otherwise they are pretty much the same weapon skill.

Naegling is definitely not higher DPS then any of these options, it's just better to pad the parse on Sheol C. If you had all two different DD's with full buffs on separate infinite HP monsters, Naegling would be the lower of the numbers. When you have 3~4 people all rushing the same monster, then it's just easier to overkill by 20k+. There is a finite amount of monster HP in Sheol C so the winner is always going to be the one to pad the most.


Both are very strong, a 60/60 STR/VIT WS is just ridiculously good on WAR. Base damage of over 900 with decent TP scaling lends itself to lots of damage very quickly. Higher delay means it takes longer to start swinging but you also get more TP back for each WS, and those are a static 2s penalty. Combine that with 2.10~2.15 attacks per round and you get to put out a high damage WS every ~3 attack rounds.

Note on Chango, it's very strong in pure damage but doesn't get overkill damage. 850 TP Bonus means about half your damage is in that first hit, with the rest over next 4 hits (you average ~1.24 DA per WS). It means we only get credit for the hits that the monster has HP to survive, and since we don't want them alive after we WS we end up losing 5~10K from 1~2 hits being ignored.

Laphria stage 5 is stronger than Chango, unless you self SC Light and even then, if it's something like Dhartok, where you can make Gravitation, then Laphria could still be competitive with Upheaval > Disaster > KJ > Upheaval


Again this is only true if you dont have Haste Samba from some support job and even without Haste Samba it's almost break even.

Typing this more to everyone else, because Saevel put me on blacklist for confronting his claims, which are often based on nothing, so he won't see this anyway, unless someone will quote it XD



All good, but people forget about 2 things
1. 240delay weapon has much better base TP/Delay ratio than 480delay weapon and it's actually very significant advantage of 12.65%
2. There is a 2 sec (~120delay) WS delay

Lets take Laphria /sam getting 296TP per hit with 104.8 delay per round and Naegling /drg getting 138TP with 75 delay round (real values with 70stp Samurai roll).

Laphria will WS after two rounds, so after 209.6 delay
Naegling after 4 rounds, so after 300 delay
In theory that would mean Naegling is 43% slower (300/209.6), but lets add 120 WS delay to that. 420/329.6, so it goes down to Naegling only being ~27% slower, while having ~27% higher WS damage and you can see how the gap is closing pretty fast.

Now with 5% haste samba, Naegling is only ~13% slower. With 10% Haste Samba it's Laphria that is ~1% slower

Don't mean to keep dragging the Naegling discussion here cause Naegling isn't a prime, but this is not necessarily true. In my group people tab away from mobs, which means wars are usually getting fresh mobs every time.

The discussion of "which is better" needs a target. Do you care for segments, parse or time remaining? If you care for segments (which is not what insecure people care about), then just pick your favorite weapon cause if you are half decent you will still clear the whole zone. Time remaining and parse, which are useless metrics, are all in favorite of Naegling.

And yet you end up with millions more HP on scoreboard then all the monsters in the zone have. I've full cleared with 10min remaining with 2 Chango WAR's before.

This is why I kinda miss Kparse, it would track individual monster ID's and you could easily tell who was overkilling. With some math you could even remove most of the overkill and calculate the real damage, was pretty eye opening. I wasn't joking when I said ~20% of Savage bro's damage is just overkill with some folks hitting ~40% of useless damage.

Question about that particular moonshade property: Does that apply to WSs also? I remember reading claims that it did like 10+ years ago during abyssea so I assume that they just didn't know how to test and the answer is no.

I meant to go down that rabbit hole and completely forgot to.

I didn't focus on WS damage tbh, so I can't really confirm, but Im 99.9% sure it wont work for WS, especially that it's based on TP you have and I'm pretty sure WS damage is calculated AFTER TP is taken away (reason why things like Blau Dolch's latent worked for WS too), so even if it works for WS, bonus damage would be very low.

I don't believe this is possible, I full cleared with 7.5 mins left today but the BRD was unbelievable at pulling, could not have been faster.

I'm 100% that it's possible and even probable, but not every time. Some people are very skilled, geared, coordinated, AND proficient at using every 3rd party program that will help them eek out every little extra advantage possible.

And that's not admonishment. If you're happy with how you're playing and it's basically impossible to get banned at this point, it's accepted behavior. It's not the last part of that list that saves them all that time, it's the skilled, geared, coordinated part that gets a force multiplier by luck and 3rd party.

We even had bolters to get back up from first floor down, and at the end after the brd pulled all the mobs up. The only times I've seen this happen have been luck on mob sets too. No dahak, no slimes, no ap in apkallu, no nothing remotely risky. They also took WAR WAR COR COR BRD SCH, but I think only one wild card. 3rd and 4th rolls were Gallant and fighters.

Don't underestimate the 3rd party program abuse. I filled in for a sortie group where they didn't even use bolters and were flying around at flee speed+++ bragging about doing 8/8 plus 2 sets of Naaks every night. It was eye opening and I'm not shy about 3rd party programs myself but that was the biggest abuse I've been apart of.

Just this morning we full cleared in a shout pug: Run,Sch,Brd,Cor,Sam,War. Tank pulls/holds and bard grabs distant packs. 5 mins left when finished, used all Izzat.

No one was using any obvious cheats. I think folks make it out to be harder than it is.

I will say this, running segs when I 1st wake up at 5am Eastern with mainly JP players is like night and day to PUGs with US players and RMTs at other times of the day. They are generally very well organized. Everyone knowing what to do without even talking about it. I also tend to see a the majority of JP shout pugs are r25/r30 and very well geared.

Nobody's saying full clear is difficult or impossible, they're saying that shaving off an additional several minutes from already highly efficient runs is difficult. How many full clears with 10+ minutes left have you been a part of? How about 18 minutes?

Hahaha yeah it is quite entertaining, I also am not shy about those things and that these tools exist and are abused quite openly, but to brag about doing full clears in ody//sortie farms in a manner that requires a gross amount of "assistance" isn't something to brag about lol. If you do those sort of things by legit means, sure brag away... if it requires you to press the "easy button" then just be humble and say nothing as its not something one should feel overtly proud of lol.

"Were not flee hacking, we just keep bolters roll on" (not direct quote but yanno)

Did I miss the patch notes where bolters roll no longer wears off when you attack / are attacked by something? Dudes be cheating so openly lmao

clearly they bring 2 cors as DDs in addition to the standard COR and rotate bolters after every pull DUH ;)

Something that can easily help clear speed is after buffs are applied, people split off to solo things rather than fighting over the same mobs and their % dps... Like when you pull up on floor 3 and theres colibri at the fountain, while the PLD runs down the ramp to pull up and everyone runs face first into the 1st 2 camps the cor can pop triple shot and solo all the birds w/ hot shot.

Just an example but all of these small intricacies add up to large gains over the 30 min run. Having Aria, all your DDs correctly swapping weapons to fight the right targets, people not relying on auto-target... the list goes on.

Ive seen floor 1 cleared @24:30, floor 2 by 21:00, and floor 3 by 14:30, so its really a matter of luck with mobs, coordination, swift execution of buffs etc. Not to say 3rd party tools dont speed things up Significantly, especially the more sinister tools, but its well within reason to clear with 5+ mins remaining. I'm in no way shocked to hear a group clearing with 10, especially with the BRD tank puller strat.

I'll stick to my subpar runs by some peoples standards and keep it legit lol. There are aspects to actually playing the game and experiencing the mechanics that make it more fun. Permanently avoiding certain aspects or compensating in ways to achieve a better result ruins the point of the it being a game with obstacles to overcome. At least in my opinion anyways.

And to be clear, I am not saying full clears and whatever else can't be done legit... just saying that maybe can't be done by most, including myself with my group. I have yet to full clear a sheol c, nor am I really concerned about it. We average ~10-11k segments and ~50k galli and that's pretty good as far as I am concerned. Plus it's pretty casual and fun.

Hard agree with this. What's the point of playing a game if you remove knockback, have a program automatically stunning TP moves, automatically looking away from dangerous TP moves, a program to bypass animations, and a program to bypass move speed limits.

It's like playing Super Mario Bros but removing death from the pits, making enemies not do damage to you, giving yourself double jump, and having full time fire flower. Then being impressed with how fast you can complete the game.