Prime WS Information, Testing, Discussion

nin have 5% ws dmg from job gift not sure if u put that in

I did and appropriate physical limit based on aftermath,which is why I also have two control sets with missed hits.

Solving for just the ftp difference based on fotia, though, gives closer to 5 for 1K and 20 for 3K. I didn't check for 2K yet.

if you can post your 1K, 2K, and 3K results on WAR again I can run those through and see what results I get for that.

Could say that, but I'd say the null hypothesis here should be the thing the game says, until we can prove it works otherwise

E: I suppose if Cata works that way (You can drain 1k off a mob with 70 HP) then we could assume Origin works the same way (+mp)

This is the result the WAR dataset gives me:
I don't have a 2K dataset since you changed the stats on that test. 464 from WSC would give about 60% STR 60% VIT. I also used 68 WSD total since you mentioned 65, but WAR has 3 from gifts. The 1K all fall in this range, the 3K come up a little lower than this result.

(361 + 48 + 462) * 3.15 * (3.95 * 1.04) * 1.68 = 18935~19881
(361 + 48 + 462) * 9.50 * (3.95 * 1.10) * 1.68 = 60400~63420

Just to verify accuracy of my program, I got these results with the gun data. I did have it print out the mod % since from the results we can see that DEX and AGI gave the same increase, lines up exactly with the manual answers solving for two unknown variables. Verifying by hand, I do get a small amount difference in the posted data, perhaps there is a rounding or flooring in the formula we don't know or maybe the +0.3 to pdif cap is not a flat 0.3 and could be x/1024 like ftp values are. also possible that the ftp is off a minor amount due to being x/1024 as well. the last result is 3K with the boost agi applied, which still lined up with 70% mod and 7.5 ftp

You guys are the experts, but when it say convert damage to hp and absorbs damage to hp, it seems like the same thing? "Absorbs" is just a foreign translation issue? Basically its the same result.

What's more likely that they coded in? Copy/paste something like spirit taker or that code is too old so the ffxiv team used their own familiar rules. What's the common "absorb" mechanic over there?

Regardless, that's a badass weaponskill with a badass function. If I was a Dark that scythe would be my new world mission.

Absorb and convert are not the same thing. Absorb is absorbing from the enemy, so if it's immune to drains or, in the case of MP drain, has no MP it will do nothing. Convert is converting damage dealt into HP/MP, so it is not reliant on the enemy having HP/MP to drain nor the enemy's resistance to drains.


An example of converting is Mystic Boon. It works on anything because it converts your damage dealt into MP. Entropy also does this. Tizona does this.


This is wrong. Catastrophe does not convert damage into HP, it absorbs an amount of HP equal to a percentage of damage dealt. Big difference. It doesn't work on undead because undeads are immune to drain effects.

But it did still damage or kill the undead enemy right?


Thanks for the explanation. There's two parts I'm trying to figure out with respect to undead:

1.) Does it deal damage to Undead / can Undead be killed by Origin WS?
2.) Does it absorb HP/MP from undead? We know the answer is No, here.

It deals standard physical damage. The drain is merely based on a percentage of that damage. It will still deal damage to undead but it won't drain from them.

Well my Ruthless Stroke bug report was moved to "Accepted bugs"

From my experience, that means they've accepted the bug for translation/submission to the JP Dev team. (I once had a GM contact me in game about my bug submission so I asked them about the submission process).

In any case, I hope they make a correction.

"Accepted" as in "yay you can read and fill out a form"

The post is acceptable

Thx, that's still something I guess XD

So, how do you isolate wsc when you don’t know ftp values.

I had thought that you use fotia piece to do that and solve for ftp for both without fotia and with and and come out to

So I came out to the following

Wsd1 = Wd * pDif * ftp
Wsd2 = Wd * pDif * (ftp + fotia)

Solving for ftp you get:
ftp = Wsd1 / (Wd * pDif)
ftp = Wsd2 / (Wd * pDif) - fotia

Then since you know ftp is the same across both you can do:
Wsd1 / (Wd * pDif) = Wsd2 / (Wd * pDif) - fotia

Solve for Wd and you get:
Wd = (Wsd2 - Wsd1) / (pDif * fotia)

Is that right?

Wd is base weapon damage, fStr, and wsc mod

I think the easiest way is to use the missed first hit samples, since they are known to be ftp 1.0

Sure, but I'm like 200 WS in and I only have 1 of those samples

Edit: Regardless, I'm doing something wrong because my calculated WSC is way off on the naked vs. naked + fotia calc if compared to the main hand miss calc. I'm getting vastly different numbers.

Update, I've gotten some results that have brought the calculation in line with the missed hit now.

I swear there was dagger testing for 1000TP earlier in the thread but I can't find it.

I've done about 100 naked and 75 with fotia belt on rabbits and so far here is what I'm seeing for Ruthless Stroke. I "think" my math is right.

	1000 TP	1000 TP Fotia	Main Hand Miss
Min	4273	4346	771
Max	4482	4560	771
Possible Max?	4486	4563	809

Obviously I haven't quite clamped all the results yet to account for the 1.05 randomizer, but I think enough to get close.

So far at 1000 TP I'm seeing fTP of ~5.719831337 based on the minimum value I've been able to achieve. With a WSC value of 71. Not really doing anything to figure out what makes up the WSC yet, but trying to figure out what fTP @1000 is first.

I only have 1 missed first hit, so I just included it for completion, but wanted to update.

Stats: ML 30 Mithra THF/SAM (PDL 1)

STR	129
DEX	177
VIT	129
AGI	170
INT	132
MND	117
CHA	145

if you keep everything the same except using a piece of fotia in place of nothing, you can solve for the ftp that way.

for example (base damage + fstr + wsc) * ftp * pdif

we we would know all besides wsc and ftp, with fotia we would have
(base damage + fstr + wsc) * (ftp + 25/256) * pdif

so using katana numbers i had open and if we use the minimum values

(155 + 25 + x) * y * (3.35 * 1.1) = 5655
and (155 + 25 + x) * (y + 25 / 256) * (3.35 * 1.1) = 5789

solving for x and y from there would give me 2116/11 for x (wsc) and 141375/34304 for y (ftp)

with the dex and agi values I have for this set, that would give me ~29% DEX/AGI and an ftp of ~4.13 which would probably be 30% and 4 ftp


x*y = 4273, x * (y + 25/256) = 4346 would give a y value of 5.7162

That is basically exactly what I'm trying to do to get WSC, and then plugging in WSC to get fTP

what is the 1.1 you multiply pDif by in your ninja calc?

Aftermath

Are we sure that am goes up before the WS? I feel like I’ve been throwing out some of my results that were more than my minimum x 1.05 because I still had am1 up.

It definitely does. 4456 with sekkanoki, 4469 with AM1. So is AM1 10%?

100% affects the WS that activates AM. It is very noticeable at 3000TP. For 1000TP samples I've been making sure AM3 is up to remove any guesswork and variance, which is where the full 10% comes from. AM1 should be 4~5% or so but I haven't checked Stage 4 AM1/AM2 and I don't know how it scales between them precisely. Just keeping sure that AM3 is up before using Sekkanoki is easiest.

-------------------------
Zesho Meppo
Still going to tighten up the diff% however, from what I have right now it looks like:
WSC: 25%DEX 25%AGI
fTP: 4.0 @ 1000, +/-18.7150 @ 3000

AM3 Stage 4 Check
Lv18 Shuriken
29 D + 22 fSTR2 = 51 Base Damage
3.35 pDIF
1' Distance

170 no AM3
187 AM3

3.685 w/ 10% from AM for 187

(29D + 22 fSTR2) * 3.35pDIF = 170
(29D+ 22 fSTR2) * 3.685pDIF = 187

AM3 Potency @ Stage 4 = 10% PDL



WSC Stat Check
123+237STR (93 Diff)
25809

125+305DEX (96 Diff)<<<
27605

123+206VIT (74 Diff)
25946

123+278AGI (89 Diff)<<<
27554

117+175INT (73 Diff)
25885

108+181MND (72 Diff)
24775

107+181CHR (64 Diff)
25843

WSC is split between DEX and AGI as expected.



fTP Transfer Check
Restating the obvious but fTP does not transfer. Missed first hit Zeppos dealing ~2k.



fTP Check
ML18 NIN/SAM
Lv -1 Wild Rabbit
155D + 25fSTR = 180 Base Damage before WSC (DEX/AGI mods suspected)
3.35 pDIF + 0.1PDL (Trait) + 10% PDL (AM) = 3.685 total pDIF
+5% WSD (Gift)

1000TP No Fotia 5655~5919 (4.67% Diff)

3000TP No Fotia 24743~25946 (4.86% Diff)
1000TP Fotia 5789~6056 (4.61% Diff)

3000TP Fotia 24870~26038 (4.70% Diff)

Additional samples will get exact numbers to the decimal but there won't be massive variance from this data. Will expand on the sample size later tonight or tomorrow but for now the numbers above are my best estimate. fTP is undoubtedly slightly higher or lower (thousandths of a decimal probably) than what I have written there. In study peer review is your friend so feel free to check my math.

So based on this, I should multiply my 1000TP results pDif by 1.04? Is that correct?

So interesting discovery with the Pinaka, not damage related.

Was in DI messing around with Sarv, sidenote I saw 4 ws's in a row using Bayeux Arrow with a Recycle proc- no +Recycle gear in set just natural traits. And sure enough, eventually pulled hate on Azi Dahaka on the one Sarv that happened to actually use up the Arrow! He quickly gave me an immediate ride home to Mhaura, where out of instinct I popped Scavenge....and received a Bayeux Arrow.

Normally, if you try to Scavenge in a zone where you haven't fired any ammunition, you get the typical "Nothing" response- and never in a town. Even if you ever tried in Al Zahbi after using ammo during Beseiged and don't zone, you still get the "Nothing" response.

But sure enough, Scavenge in town without firing a single shot let me get the Prime Arrow back. While not gamebreaking news, it is interesting for CORs to at least just be able to jump on a 99RNG, equip their Earp, and get a bullet before heading out for content.

EDIT- the Scavenge effect appears to be guaranteed if Prime Weapon is equipped. Just dropped arrow 4x in a row in town, changing subjob to spam scavenge, and got it back every time.

Could someone give a very rough estimation of Oshala fTP and WSC with this small sample size?

SMN/WHM
279 STR
411 INT
370 MND
73 WSD

1003 TP (no Fotia)
17554
17646
17780
17986
18100

1003 TP (Fotia Gorget)
17869
18093
18187
18450
18566

1003 TP INT+45 (no Fotia)
18248
18318
18621
18716
18749

1003 TP MND+45 (no Fotia)
18305
18348
18353
18395
18711

2006 TP (no Fotia)
35105
35432
35577
36186
36489

3000 TP (no Fotia)
52289
52406
53531
53638
53913

3000 TP (Fotia Gorget)
53155
53524
54439
54584
54802

Possibly ~4.5 / ~9 / ~13 with 30% INT/MND at just a glance

Is it even a physical WS?

i have seen it miss using a stage3 staff on basement sortie NMs, so i'd wager its at least not 100% magical.

Based on the information provided earlier, I've adjusted the numbers a bit for Ruthless Stroke.

	||||	1000 TP	||||	1000 TP Fotia
Min		4271		4346
Max		4482		4560
Possible Max?		4484		4563
Possible Min?		4269		4343
Distribution		1.0494		1.0492

base damage: 130
fSTR: 22
pDif: 3.35
AM1 pDif Multi: 1.04

Estimated WSC: 68
Estimated fTP: 5.57223