Prime WS Information, Testing, Discussion

It's pretty much a given at this point. This must be S-E's solution to everyone using naegling all the time. Their design methodology for the primes was "just slap savage blade on EVERY prime weapon and call it a day". Granted naegling boosts attack with number of buffs, but these give PDL aftermath so it gives them a higher cap. They clearly put a lot of thought into the design here.

Its simply more than one hit. Probably at least 2. You have very high chance to proc DA at least once with this set.

So if you miss the first attack on a WS you miss all the TP that you normally get as a normal hit and all the other hits are 10 TP after that, right?

The normal TP return looks like it's 141 TP. Maybe that's killing it on the first hit or maybe that's both hits landing. In order to get less than 141 TP you have to miss the first hit and then get a Conserve TP proc to get anywhere in the ball park of 100 tp. You're starting at 10 TP for the 2nd hit landing then a double or triple proc is only going to get you to 20 or 30 TP before Store TP. Conserve TP can add between 10-200 TP which is why I'm saying it's going to mask easy testing results.

That's my understanding, feel free to correct if I'm wrong.

Much more likely than a Conserve TP proc in this case is Save TP. Ionis grants 100 Save TP, and considering Sortie takes place in an Adoulin area, its standard issue for everyone in there to have Ionis active. Either way, the true number of hits landed is masked in this case. Which is a shame, because isolating a single hit of a WS after the first hit misses is one of the most useful data points to be able to work with when it comes to determining weapon skill modifiers.

Its still super easy to do though. Just use it on full hp mob and get the damage for 2 hit without proc. Then use it on mon with low HP so only first hit land (second hit won't land if first kills the target). Then just subtract main hit only from 2hits and you have a damage of 2nd hit.

I did run a test like this with a different set earlier if it helps. Set used has no multi attack, with the exception of Gae Buide. Wyvern was also not called at this time.


There was actually one other result with my ws set equipped where I am fairly confident there were no multi hits on an acuex:

Ok sacrificed a run and tested Origin

Test Methodology: Fotia for fTP, Absorb-INT for WSC
1000 fTP: ~3.0
3000 fTP: ~9.225
WSC: 60%STR 60%INT

No time to test 2000TP. I might sacrifice another 5min in the next run to get that last detail.

Had my first test run with Varga Purnikawa and using Maru Kala.

Seeing all these big numbers made me excited, so far only one person posted an underbuffed sample of Maru Kala damage which looked very low...

Turns out that's not coincidence. Unless I'm missing something, which is hopefully the case, it is extremely weak.

Was a full melee run (ABCGE) with chaos roll, minuets (SV for G), indi fury, berserk, impetus, etc. Average damage for Maru was 25k. The highest spike was 42-45k. In the same conditions with Verethragna R15, victory smite is in the 55k-80k range.

Capped impetus hits were ~2600 while for Vere's it's around ~2300, not including AM3 hits which can spike to 7700.

I'd like my muffins back please :P

What WS set were you using? You mentioning Impetus makes me think that you used your VS set on a WS that cant crit.

While I'm not saying it's the case, SE forgetting to put the FTP transfer on a "new" ws after the h2h rework wouldn't surprise me.

But considering the unbuffed SS of it was like 28k when you account for mob dmg reduction I find a full buffed 25k average hard to believe.

You will almost certainly need to use a Howling Fist style gear set for Maru Kala.

Yeah if you're not gearing for WSD/PDL then I wouldn't expect you'd do well. Pretend it's savage blade, because that's what every Prime WS seems to be

Yeah, massive difference when gearing for straight wsd on Diarmuid at least. Was aiming to ws between 2000-2500 tp after putting up am3. Full buffs for all of these fights.

[Jabrolout] ¨ Aita: Diarmuid 99999
---------------- TP 264 ----------------


[Jabrolout] ¨ Triboulex: Diarmuid 99999
---------------- TP 387 ----------------
[Jabrolout] ¨ Triboulex: Diarmuid 99999
---------------- TP 218 ----------------
[Jabrolout] ¨ Triboulex: Diarmuid 99999
---------------- TP 202 ----------------
[Jabrolout] ¨ Triboulex: Diarmuid 99999
---------------- TP 233 ----------------
[Jabrolout] ¨ Triboulex: Diarmuid 99999
---------------- TP 341 ----------------


[Jabrolout] ¨ Gartell: Diarmuid 99999
---------------- TP 245 ----------------
[Jabrolout] ¨ Gartell: Diarmuid 99999
---------------- TP 230 ----------------
[Jabrolout] ¨ Gartell: Diarmuid 87532
---------------- TP 283 ----------------
[Jabrolout] ¨ Gartell: Diarmuid 99999
---------------- TP 275 ----------------
[Jabrolout] ¨ Gartell: Diarmuid 92619
---------------- TP 257 ----------------
[Jabrolout] ¨ Gartell: Diarmuid 86734
---------------- TP 225 ----------------

OK thank you for the suggestions, I've built a different set to try tomorrow. Looking at it, my set was definitely bad. Just a generic "not otherwise specified WS set" which I should just replace with 5/5 Nyame for good measure. My trash set was:

ammo="Voluspa Tathlum",
head="Mpaca's Cap",
neck="Fotia Gorget",
ear1="Schere Earring",
ear2="Sherida Earring",
body="Ken. Samue +1",
hands="Anchorite's Gloves +3",
ring1="Niqmaddu Ring",
ring2="Gere Ring",
back=jse_back_da, -- 30 dex, 10 double attack
waist="Moonbow Belt +1",
legs="Mpaca's Hose",
feet="Mpaca's Boots"

More feedback to come. I guess an early question is, Fotia yes or no? For MNK the Nodowa +2 has 15 dex and 10 PDL which are likely to play a big part in Maru Kala. Similarly, moonbow +1 is just loaded with 20 str/dex and 8 triple attack.

Proposed set:

ammo="Knobkierrie",
head="Mpaca's Cap", -- Sadly R0 currently, but +200 TP
neck="Monk's Nodowa +2", -- 10 PDL, +15 DEX
ear1="Sherida Earring", -- +5 STR/DEX and DA
ear2="Moonshade Earring", -- 250 TP
body="Bhikku Cyclas +3", -- 12 WSD
hands="Nyame Gauntlets", -- R25
ring1="Niqmaddu Ring", -- +10 STR/DEX, maybe Epams ring?
ring2="Regal Ring", -- I use Lehko's Ring
back=jse_back_da, -- +30 STR, +10 DA (I lack a WSD cape for now)
waist="Moonbow Belt +1", -- +20 STR/DEX, +8 TA
legs="Nyame Flanchard", -- R25
feet="Nyame Sollerets" -- R25

Other options:
Mpaca Legs with +5-8 PDL
Fotia Gorget/Belt
Cornelia's Ring (if owned)
Schere Earring (no dex, more ACC/ATK and DA)

So you had 0WSD on WS with probably 90% damage on first hit. You need to gear for full WSD, but you know that already, but what I'm wondering about is at what TP thresholds you were using that Maru Kala? Was the 42k spike with 3000TP?

Definitely no for Fotia too. It will for sure be massive ftp on first hit and Fotia won't do much. Definitely use JSE+2. Ofc back should be WSD and rings should be Epam/Cornelia/Ephramad too.


I don't think they forgot. They simply did all of them main hit fTP scaling and thats all.
Its good for MNK, because you can use Nyame feet,legs,hands which is great for survivability and Skillchain damage.

Exactly what I was expecting tbh. I don't think they balanced those WSs by looking at any job specific traits or JA. They only did it going by weapon damage/delay, previous WS from that damage type, with design to hit around 90k+ for 2h weapons at 3000TP. So for DRG with massive WSD multipliers from wyvern/trait it will be super easy to do 99999 at higher tp. Same for RNG with Hover shot or DRK with good Scarlet Delirium. 1h weapons seems to be designed to hit around 60-70k at 3000TP. Not sure why, maybe because they acknowledged the fact that tp bonus offhand exists or maybe because they are stupid and think 1h weapons should be weaker.

[/quote]
Even at 3000 TP, a lot of them only hit for 25-28k. My best guess is the 40k+ were a triple attack proc.

It's two-hit WS unlike some of them.

I can confirm seeing exactly one that was 14k, which looks like a missed hit.

Im pretty sure its not that. 14k was probably a missed main hit, but probably a 3-5 other hits landing (TA or double TA on main and offhand). TA proc wont do much on this WS, but still add probably like 3k damage per additional hit. This WS is 2hits, only because its impossible to have 1hit WS with H2H. There is always a subhand hit.

Why shouldn't lower dmg lower delay smaller physical size, and hence logically lower dmg even without the dmg attribute being lower, weapons do less damage.

Idk maybe because it's a game and not a real world.

Following your logic though, 1h weapon should still do same damage on WS, because I should be able to hit you few times for less damage per hit, but still for similar total damage (funny enough all 1h WSs are multihits).

is the sword WS Really that weak has any 1 actually built gear for it? it might be DEX MND as it is main stat for weapon no? first page i saw 20k-40k max if that's the case il go for great axe :(

Its not weak (up to 60k I think with standard buffs), but Naegling, Maxentius and Tizona are just too good.

Also he was gearing towards DEX, but no idea what else. I assume WSD and DEX, but we would need to ask him.
@Ahlen?

And the DT is low and isn't II so why use it over Burt?

If they want to stealth change the AM in the patch to do PDL and make the DT > DT II then we'd have an obvious choice to make. See Club for AM that does two different things.

Either way, stage 4 or 5 hidden effects can easily reverse the sword's status as the only apparent stinker of the group.

Not gonna lie, Sword with DT II would be much more interesting for RDM and BLU than another damage option. Not going to happen though.

someone please add some naegling's been thrown out of oprah's hands and then post it on official forums for SE.

I've tried dex one run and mind other runs. Mostly stacked WS Dmg but used some PDL pebble / TVR PDL ring. I haven't tried it with geo yet. I had imperator where first hit seemed to miss and it only did 813 dmg so it doesn't seem to transfer FTP (this same fight other imperators were doing mid 40Ks). The biggest imperator I've done on leshonn was 51k. Every run we have a war doing warcry... with thibron + moonshade + warcry I'm basicly 3k effective tp every ws. Lately I've been using fotia neck / belt hoping it had transfers but since I've seen the 813 hit I'm going to swap over to different items there.

Updated my previous post.
Enmity is not fixed on Sarv.
If the enmity was fixed on Sarv, I wouldn't pull hate from EV on the first 99k WS with HS25 which puts me at -50 enmity on Abject Obdella.

I wouldn't mind wasting a run if you guys have exact tests in mind that would be worth doing. I got sword / gun / horn / gaxe stage 3 on my mules.

https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/57318/prime-ws-information-testing-discussion#3667196

It took me full run for Scythe utilizing brd and cor for samurai roll and marches and to cap attack on leeches (still no time to make 2000TP test) and I was also using special set with 0% multi attack beside 3% on Scythe itself and checking TP return to be able to gather data faster on no MA proc Origins. Its super easy to make this test for ranged, because there is no randomizer, so it takes like 5min with capped attack.

I'm far from a RNG expert so genuine question here: did you do 25 ranged attacks on that Obdella before the video, or is BG wiki wrong about how HS works?

"Stacks also reset to 1 when you attack at a range targeting a different monster than the last time you attacked at a range."

I'm sure you're correct about Sarv's enmity mechanics either way, just trying to have a fruitful conversation about Hover Shot at the same time/help with future Sarv testing.