Guillotine Vs Spiral Hell Ws Mod

Looking to start gaining more Ws/macro gear but firgured i should desided jsut which ws to build.
So far as a 75drk my guillotine seems to generaly do more dmg,
but guillotine has Modifiers: STR:25% ; MND:25% as apposed to spirals Modifiers: STR:50% ; INT:50%
So with a equip boost would spirals modifires lead it to general deal more dmg then guillotine?

The following math is in no way 100% accurate; it is merely using numbers to illustrate a point.

Guillotine is

* Modifiers: STR:25% ; MND:25%

* Damage Multipliers by TP:

100%TP 200%TP 300%TP
0.875 0.875 0.875

Spiral Hell is

* Modifiers: STR:50% ; INT:50%

* Damage Multipliers by TP:

100%TP 200%TP 300%TP
1.375 1.875 3.625

WS damage formula is (D + fSTR + WSC) * pDif * fTP.
@100% TP for both and holding D/fSTR constant,

Guillotine = [(93 + 12 + 50WSC) * 0.875 * 2] + [(93 + 12 + 50WSC) * 1 * 2] * 3
= 183.75 + 87.5WSC + 630 + 300WSC
= 813.75 + 387.5WSC

Spiral Hell = [(93 + 12 + 100WSC) * 1.375 * 2]
= 288.75 + 275WSC

So at 100% TP, Guillotine viciously rapes Spiral Hell.

At 300%,

Spiral Hell = [(93 + 12 + 100WSC) * 3.625 * 2]
= 761.25 + 725WSC

Therefore if 337.5WSC > 52.5 damage, Spiral Hell at 300% TP > Guillotine, which is generally always the case.

Basically, unless you're at 300% TP, Guillotine is better.

Keep in mind that accuracy gear plays an important role in a Guillotine build, not just STR/MND, since it is multiple-hit. To maintain that damage advantage over Spiral Hell, it needs to connect. Only the first hit of a WS (from my understanding) gets the acc. boost.

where is the second part of the guillotin formula comeing from?
[(93 + 12 + 50WSC) * 1 * 2] * 3 and why doesnt spiral have that?

i woulda though with a higher dmg multiplier and higher modifier spiral woulda topped it :/ So far hasnt been the case tho

Spiral Hell hits once, Guillotine hits four times.

I'd rather have an ACC Build for Guillotine, that way once all the main ACC pieces are there, you can build up on that with STR and MND. Don;t forget about the ABSORB spells too, they can also help.

why is the damage mutiplier 0.875 in the first part of the formula and 1 in the second part?

Because only the first hit of a weaponskill is affected by the listed fTP mod; all successive hits (including DAs) have a fTP of 1.0. Sea gorgets close the gap slightly as Spiral Hell benefits more from one (refer back to fTP only applying on the first hit), but not enough that you'd consider Spiral Hell for applications below 300TP even with the appropriate gorgets.

which gorgets?

These gorgets.

at first glance they dont rly seem worth it

As a general rule, Gorgets are infinitely better than any neck piece you can wear. There was a recent addition, Ancient Torque, which gives 1 more ACC than PCC, and as such, 1 more ACC than Gorgets, but if you're willing to drop a 5-10% increase in damage (Less for Multihit WSs) for a .5% increase in hit rate, then be my guest.

Just don't expect to get invited to any of my merit parties with a frame-of-mind like that.

all the gorgets on that page pretty much have
'Increases fTP multiplier by +0.1 and adds some amount of accuracy to all hits of the Weapon Skill.'
I dont see how that is 'infinitly better' then any neck peice i can wear. By all means, educate me

Well first of all, what do you use?

About the best you can ever hope for pre-gorget is 5 STR. If you think 5 STR would add 200-400 to Spiral hell to even compare with a gorget, not including the +10 ACC gorgets give, then you're welcome to use your STR for WS.

what gorgets you talking about? I havnt seen any that give a +10 acc

http://www.ffxiah.com/item.php?id=16275

Only 11 for 1handers which scythe is not ;o So it is 2 more acc.

A WS gorget is a 7.27% increase to Spiral Hell damage and an 11.43% increase to the first hit of Guillotine, for a 2.86% increase in Guillo damage when all hits connect. They're valuable, but saying they'll add several hundred damage to your WS is misleading >_>

Sea gorgets also supposedly give 10 acc to all hits, to answer the above question.

Every gorget gives 10 ACC for every hit of a WS.

Let's do some simple math. Going to exclude Guillotine because I wasn't even talking about that.

Last time using Spiral Hell with Mol. Sickle at 300 TP gave me 3316 damage. This is not my highest (4623 on a Sea Puk), but I'll call it about average with acceptable gear.

3316*0.0727 = an increase of 241.07 damage.

So to reiterate, 200-400 additional damage.

3316*0.0727=241 increase

that would only be true if the base value of your atk was 3316. that formula ^ shows what a 7.27% increase of 3316 would be.

Base atk would actuly be ~3092. 3092 + 7.27% would equal your 3316
3092 + (3092*0.0727) = 3316
Their for you incease would have been 224 not 241. (tho it still matches your point)

Sorry. I should have been more clear.

I don't have a Spiral Hell gorget. Breeze only currently, because I rarely use Scythe, and it was more for my RNG anyway. 3316 was without Gorget.

Eitehr way god it beats pretty much everything else. Especially on multihit ws, its the only way to raise ftp above 1.0 after the first hit.

Sadly, the fTP multiplier from Gorgets only affect the first hit.

That being said, it still gives as much ACC as any other neck piece besides Ancient Torque and is definitely the top WS piece in the game, no matter the WS, except for Slug Shot/Sidewinder.

I thought it was just the first hit too, was on wiki before i posted though and it said "Increases fTP multiplier by +0.1 and adds some amount of accuracy to all hits of the Weapon Skill. "

I guess its jsut the wording of it makes it seem like its talking about acc and damage. Though only being first hit does make more sense.

Well it's not the wording either. You just have to understand that fTP is nonexistant for the additional hits. So saying it increases fTP by 0.1 literally just means it's only improving the first hit.

Don't forget attack for multihit, adds a lot of damage.

Snow Gorget - Latent effect: Increases weapon skill
accuracy and damage.

So how was it determined that the acc bounes is 10 and an 11.43% increase to the first hit of Guillotine?

For the damage increase, it's simple math.

Guillotine's fTP mod is 0.875
Adding 0.1 makes that 0.975.
0.975/0.875=0.11428, meaning a 11.43% increase in damage for the first hit.

And for the ACC bonus, it's a bit harder math. Knowing 10 ACC is 5% hit rate, you could figure it out with enough testing.

And considering every DD worth their salt has a Gorget for every WS they use, there's more than enough test samples to go around.

It only gives +7.27% at 100% tp... obviously as your base ftp gets bigger the smaller a precentage +.1 is. At 300% adding .1 to 3.625 is only a 2.76% increase in dmg. So yeah thats like a 90 dmg increase. Which interestly enough will be the same amount adding regardless of what tp you use.
Now if we backwards calculate... lets assume same pdif that Rae used since it is an xp mob and such and probably stacked a bit of str/attack. 90/3.625/2=12.41 so we hold D constant and to equal the gorget we just need a 12.41 increase in fstr and wsc mods combine. At high values of dstr +1fstr is +str. And str is a 50% mod. So basically .75str=12.41 or 16.5 str to get the same increase in dmg given same D tp and pdif. Even more at lower ftp or pdif values.