The Subtle Variances In Rudras Vs. Mandalic Sets

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the subtle variances in Rudras vs. Mandalic sets
 Leviathan.Celebrindal
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2021-02-10 08:51:14
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Considering the vast differences in TP scaling between Rudra's Storm and Mandalic Stab, I was wondering if those more versed with the job had suggestions for variances to make between the two sets.

This has come up for me because I really enjoy building Mythics, and recently built a Vajra to add to my prior farming-only THF, and I am wondering about what offhand in particular to go with as a THF without Twashtar. Please do remember that my building of THF is a fun project because I do enjoy Mythics, so I have zero plans nor desire to build another Empy. I am currently offhanding Centovente, but wondering if something like Ternion+1 or the new Odyssey dagger would be more appropriate.

Any other suggestions or comments on Mandalic sets would be quite appreciated!
 Fenrir.Melphina
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2021-02-10 15:01:51
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There are no differences between the best in slot pieces for rudra's and mandalic. The principal behind gearing for mandalic stab is identical to rudra's. Both have a dexterity modifier, both are one hit weaponskills, both scale based on tp, and both work best when stacked with sneak or trick attack. The only difference between the two is that mandalic stab has both a lower dex modifier and a lower tp modifier, and compensates for this by adding an attack multiplier. Mandalic stab is better if you're really starved for attack, but in practice with buffs you should expect to receive that never really pans out in game. For standalone weaponskill power, rudra's is realistically always ahead of Mandalic. However, mandalic is very useful if you want to make a light skillchain, and it's still comparable enough to rudra's that it does really well in that environment.

Now, vajra changes things up of course. And no, I didn't neglect to consider that you're maining the mythic dagger when I wrote that. The above paragraph is meant as a simple summmary explaining the differences between the two weaponskills, and to point out that mechanically they work the same so they both want identical gear sets. With that said, the below is the optimal "best in slot" set for both rudra's and mandalic stab. The first is stacked with sneak or trick attack. The second is for a non-stacked weaponskill, where you just swap out relic body with herc vest auged with WSD and swap the ammo from yetshila +1 to aurgelmir orb +1 and call it a day.

ItemSet 348287


This is unstacked rudra's and mandalic's BiS

ItemSet 371520
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 Leviathan.Celebrindal
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2021-02-10 15:11:06
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thank ya kindly!

So I guess a related question- why did I build that damn centovente? ;) I had assumed due to rudra's much larger TP modifier that if one was using Rudra's primarily, centovente would pull that ahead in the same way a COR uses Ataktos or RDM/BLU use Thibron for Savage Blade.
 Fenrir.Melphina
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2021-02-10 15:13:39
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I'm just going to remove the weapons from my gear set templates because people always mention them. The weapons are more situational than the gear sets. If you want to gear for a weaponskill then the armor is always going to be the same, but the weapons boil down to what you're using at the time. These are merely templates I keep around for reference. Vajra/ternion +1, Vajra/twashter, and Vajra/centovente all work with the above gear sets. And the difference is situational; revolving around cento's accuracy needs and whether or not you own twashter or if you're using ternion +1 in lieu of it. Also, dark matter augments could change BiS, but I'm not including those considerations either because of how random dark matter augments are.
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By Veydal1 2021-02-10 15:27:14
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Fenrir.Melphina said: »
...The only difference between the two is that mandalic stab has both a lower dex modifier and a lower tp modifier, and compensates for this by adding an attack multiplier. Mandalic stab is better if you're really starved for attack, but in practice with buffs you should expect to receive that never really pans out in game...

I've seen this mentioned a few times, but just don't see it in practice more often than not. What buffs / targets (and debuffs) are we assuming where this is the case?

I've found Mandalic (with Vajra R15) to be more useful than Rudra's (Twashtar R15) due to the attack modifier on Mandalic in more situations. This without going into the topic of skillchain properties / spike damage being required / more beneficial for certain fights.

One case I've really found Twashtar to shine, especially with TP bonus dagger, is on wave 3 boss, where the fight lasts long enough for the white damage from AM3 and you're realistically expected to be attack capped because typically you have more people available to cover the needed buffs & debuffs as opposed to low-manning content where you may not have that same luxury.
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2021-02-10 15:30:24
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Everything unless otherwise stated as so, assumes you are buffed to the 9's. In a real party, with +10 gear buffs, rotations etc.

2 Geos, 8 songs, 4 rolls, def 1 eva 1

Also, spamming ws, not skill-chaining, not coordinating just mashing
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 Fenrir.Melphina
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2021-02-10 15:45:25
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Quote:
2 Geos, 8 songs, 4 rolls, def 1 eva 1
You don't even need that tbh. A four song bard and chaos/samurai roll is more than sufficient to push rudra's well ahead of mandalic in almost every standard scenario. Just one bard and one cor is all it takes, and that's the standard DD party configuration nowadays. Adding in geo buffs is just icing on the cake.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2021-02-10 15:49:39
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Yeah, just answering the question hyperbolicly

There's a myriad of inbetween but if there's a "talk" it's either "all the things" or "with trust"
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By Veydal1 2021-02-10 16:14:49
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Hmmmm, can you elaborate on what these standard scenarios are? I don't see a BRD & COR enough against a level 150 mob with 2000+ base defense. Same with even VD Ambus / Omen / Wave 3 Dynamis, especially since you typically need at least one acc song from the BRD, leaving you with HM + 2 Minuets.

I have the standard "high tier" gear and I typically see better standalone numbers from Mandalic - using grape daifuku + getting 1 accuracy song (2 if in wave 3 Dynamis).

Maybe I'm overlooking something.
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By SimonSes 2021-02-10 16:41:29
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If we are on this topic

Fenrir.Melphina said: »
This is unstacked rudra's and mandalic's BiS
ItemSet 371520

You can change feet and body to Gleti's when attack capped and that also means its harder to get there for Rudra than for Mandalic.
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2021-02-10 17:51:18
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Quote:
Hmmmm, can you elaborate on what these standard scenarios are? I don't see a BRD & COR enough against a level 150 mob with 2000+ base defense. Same with even VD Ambus / Omen / Wave 3 Dynamis, especially since you typically need at least one acc song from the BRD, leaving you with HM + 2 Minuets.

I have the standard "high tier" gear and I typically see better standalone numbers from Mandalic - using grape daifuku + getting 1 accuracy song (2 if in wave 3 Dynamis).

Maybe I'm overlooking something.


Dynamis is one of the places where you should expect geo debuffs added to the mix as well though, since they can work their defense down from the tank or off party and everyone benefits, much like the red mage in the tank or off party should be casting dia III and everyone will benefit. And in the same vein if there's a dancer anywhere in the alliance they can cut the mobs defense by 23% via box step, and between frailty, box step and dia 3 the amount of attack you need for rudra's to surpass mandalic is greatly diminished. Stack chaos roll and a minuet or two on top of that and there you go. Our dynamis shell has been bringing a dancer to runs and it really enhances our dd's output on all the nms. That's why I said in most scenarios when you account for the event's mob strength and accompanying buff support rudra's should outperform mandalic. There are some exceptions, but the mainstay is that rudra's is better because of the stronger stat mods.
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By SimonSes 2021-02-10 19:26:04
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While on NMs you might see all those rebuffs stacked up, on trash mobs on Wave 1 or 2 I usually only have attack buffs. It takes too much time to gather mobs for frailty, because half of mobs are ranged, or stops to cast buffs or nukes. Usually every DD just run to some mob and kills it. Without def down you won't be even close to cap att on those mobs. With +75% attack bonus its much more possible.
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necroskull Necro Bump Detected! [577 days between previous and next post]
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By Hopalong 2022-09-10 13:51:48
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Assuming no Assassin's Gorget in the set above, which would be better for unstacked Rudra's and uncapped attack:

Caro Necklace (6 str 6 dex attack 10)
Rep. Plat. Medal (10 str attack 30)
Fotia Gorget

and does stacking with sneak attack change anything for curiosity sake?

Many thanks.
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2022-09-10 17:45:22
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Caro is better than the alternatives you listed because of mandalic's dex modifier.
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