Crossbones said: »
Let BST buffs effect party members then we'll talk. If slug makes bst a hybrid support then I guess full break makes WAR one too.
Current State Of BST: August 2020 Update
Current state of BST: August 2020 Update
I mean, slug is almost three times as potent as full break on the stats that matter, and BST can do other support stuff like terror and limited AoE tanking.
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So weird people acting like BST is terrible. PUP is in a way way worse spot than BST. Sure, you can send the retard to tank a singular mob, but there is so many things mechanically wrong with the Automaton and it will never be fixed lol
That's assuming you won't be capped after full break and require the rest of the potency, which I already don't use ws debuffs for anything except sometimes wave 3 anyways but that's not 6 man content. Lol at aoe "tanking".
Leviathan.Stamos said: »
So weird people acting like BST is terrible. PUP is in a way way worse spot than BST. Sure, you can send the retard to tank a singular mob, but there is so many things mechanically wrong with the Automaton and it will never be fixed lol
People just want BST to be a top tier DD.. I don't get it.
Like said, there are some mechanic QoL things they could do. But the job does it's purpose very well.
Someone should go open a thread in the whm forums that the job is broken because it can't top a parse. I digress.
Honestly, I wouldn't mind it being a top tier DD. But, what he is suggesting is basically making it like a COR.
His time is better spent trying to turn an apple into an orange.
Crossbones said: »
That's assuming you won't be capped after full break and require the rest of the potency, which I already don't use ws debuffs for anything except sometimes wave 3 anyways but that's not 6 man content. Lol at aoe "tanking".
With the advent of damage limit + gear, reaching cap is not as easy.
BST isn't terrible. BST can put out decent master damage and some pets (albeit not many) have useful abilities to groups. They can carry their own weight. Criticism of a job's shortcomings is not the same thing as say BST is terrible or not useful at all.
PUP does need some fixing but it's far from a bad place. If you set it as a bruiser tank. It can melt a good deal while the master can be safely far away. It's a great Dynamis supertank if no one touches the mobs. Making it so you can avoid fight Voltes around the gyves in Wave 3. But that's derailing the discussion.
PUP does need some fixing but it's far from a bad place. If you set it as a bruiser tank. It can melt a good deal while the master can be safely far away. It's a great Dynamis supertank if no one touches the mobs. Making it so you can avoid fight Voltes around the gyves in Wave 3. But that's derailing the discussion.
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Crossbones said: »
That's assuming you won't be capped after full break and require the rest of the potency, which I already don't use ws debuffs for anything except sometimes wave 3 anyways but that's not 6 man content. Lol at aoe "tanking".
"Frailty's higher potency doesn't matter because you might be capped with just Dia III."
"Madrigal's additional accuracy doesn't matter because you might be capped with just Sushi."
33% attack and defense is so much bigger than 12.5% that Full Break shouldn't even be in the same conversation.
It's more along the lines people are going way overboard. It needs some QoL tweaks like an adjustment to the varying pet sizes. But, it still stands it is in the best spot it has ever been in terms of overall game balance than it has ever been.
In regards to PUP, singular mob tanking. And, damage wise it is pretty terrible while not under overdrive. The Master damage is fine enough, but the Automaton's shortcomings are based off how it was designed/how attachments work.
In regards to PUP, singular mob tanking. And, damage wise it is pretty terrible while not under overdrive. The Master damage is fine enough, but the Automaton's shortcomings are based off how it was designed/how attachments work.
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Yeah so I'm just gonna reiterate what I and others have said before. All BST really has is the slug, and when you don't need the attack or defense down you don't have ***, you're a gimp WAR with a couple other tricks. What slot is BST supposed to fill in a 6 man PT? Do they replace a COR or BRD? Nope, capped haste + acc and SAM roll too much to give up. Maybe a GEO? If you don't need anything other than frailty/fury maybe. Would they replace a DPS job? Well if you already have GEO COR and BRD you probably won't need anything BST brings to the table so you might as well grab a job that either does more DMG or a RDM or something else.
BST can do a lot of things, it can DPS, it can debuff, and it can CC, but it doesn't do all of those things at once and aside from the slug it doesn't do any of those things better than other jobs. It doesn't have an identity of it's own and is more like a WAR that uses pets or a SMN that melees.
If you all think BST is fine then I hope you all get what you want and the job stays the same as far as what it can do. Personally I think there is a lot that can be improved (besides just mechanics) to give the job more flavor or more of an identity.
BST can do a lot of things, it can DPS, it can debuff, and it can CC, but it doesn't do all of those things at once and aside from the slug it doesn't do any of those things better than other jobs. It doesn't have an identity of it's own and is more like a WAR that uses pets or a SMN that melees.
If you all think BST is fine then I hope you all get what you want and the job stays the same as far as what it can do. Personally I think there is a lot that can be improved (besides just mechanics) to give the job more flavor or more of an identity.
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Yeah so I'm just gonna reiterate what I and others have said before. All GEO really has frailty/fury, and when you don't need the attack or defense down you don't have ***, you're a gimp BLM with a couple other tricks. What slot is GEO supposed to fill in a 6 man PT? Do they replace a COR or BRD? Nope, capped haste + acc and SAM roll too much to give up. Maybe a BST? If you don't need anything other than -att/def maybe. Would they replace a DPS job? Well if you already have BST COR and BRD you probably won't need anything GEO brings to the table so you might as well grab a job that either does more DMG or a RDM or something else.
GEO can do a lot of things, it can DPS, it can debuff, and it can Nuke, but it doesn't do all of those things at once and aside from the bubble it doesn't do any of those things better than other jobs. It doesn't have an identity of it's own and is more like a BLM that uses bubbles or a SMN that melees.
If you all think GEO is fine then I hope you all get what you want and the job stays the same as far as what it can do. Personally I think there is a lot that can be improved (besides just mechanics) to give the job more flavor or more of an identity.
GEO can do a lot of things, it can DPS, it can debuff, and it can Nuke, but it doesn't do all of those things at once and aside from the bubble it doesn't do any of those things better than other jobs. It doesn't have an identity of it's own and is more like a BLM that uses bubbles or a SMN that melees.
If you all think GEO is fine then I hope you all get what you want and the job stays the same as far as what it can do. Personally I think there is a lot that can be improved (besides just mechanics) to give the job more flavor or more of an identity.
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No one is saying it doesn't need QoL changes. But, what you are suggesting basically puts it in the broken COR category. As of right now, if you take BST in the DD slot it will perform very well with some added benefits, similar to BLU/DNC.
Nyaarun I thought we already established you shouldn't be talking about jobs anymore. That was an atrocious attempt at making a point
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If you think that any of the content in this game requires a static 6 man setup.. you are the problem.
There is nothing in this game that cannot be won with a BST taking up 1/6 slots in the content.
There is nothing in this game that cannot be won with a BST taking up 1/6 slots in the content.
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Crossbones said: »
Yeah so I'm just gonna reiterate what I and others have said before. All BST really has is the slug, and when you don't need the attack or defense down you don't have ***, you're a gimp WAR with a couple other tricks. What slot is BST supposed to fill in a 6 man PT? Do they replace a COR or BRD? Nope, capped haste + acc and SAM roll too much to give up. Maybe a GEO? If you don't need anything other than frailty/fury maybe. Would they replace a DPS job? Well if you already have GEO COR and BRD you probably won't need anything BST brings to the table so you might as well grab a job that either does more DMG or a RDM or something else.
I agree with this but I'd point out that this logic is kind of a slippery slope that catches a lot of other jobs in the same net lol. Blue mage can dps, debuff, and CC all at once but it doesn't do any of those things better than other jobs in a standard party setup where haste is capped. Dancer can dps, debuff, and heal but it doesn't do any of those things better than other jobs unless you need its unique debuffs. The list of jobs that are best at important roles leaves out a lot of jobs. But we still slot those jobs in because you don't need to be perfectly optimized all the time to do content.
Quote:
If you all think BST is fine then I hope you all get what you want and the job stays the same as far as what it can do. Personally I think there is a lot that can be improved (besides just mechanics) to give the job more flavor or more of an identity.
S-E should definitely continue to work on giving us more unique things to bring to a party. There's a framework for this because BST pets are based on monsters, which have all kinds of TP moves and traits that you could do interesting things with for the job. Aside from that I would argue to we should get a direct dps increase to master melee and an adjustment to axe weaponskills to directly benefit BST.
Also, put beastmaster on better gear! BST was on hauberk back in the day. More heavy DD gear for BST please!
Bismarck.Nyaarun said: »
Yeah so I'm just gonna reiterate what I and others have said before. All GEO really has frailty/fury, and when you don't need the attack or defense down you don't have ***, you're a gimp BLM with a couple other tricks. What slot is GEO supposed to fill in a 6 man PT? Do they replace a COR or BRD? Nope, capped haste + acc and SAM roll too much to give up.
To be fair, though, GEO/RDM can cap magical haste by itself, right? It's not a direct substitute for bard but that's still pretty awesome, and only those two jobs can do it, yeah?
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Asura.Geriond said: »
Honestly, that's the level that Corsair SHOULD be at, but the broken-ness of the TP bonus gun (for Savage Blade)
Nah, TP bonus gun has been there since forever. I've been using it since 2015, it wasn't THAT strong back then.
It wasn't until brd song acc buff/relic+3/naegling release that make COR competitive with DD. Back in pre-omen era it wasn't anywhere close to "good" DD.
It's really the result of all the WSD gears and the sword buffing SB. Not just the gun.
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Asura.Sirris said: »
The list of jobs that are best at important roles leaves out a lot of jobs. But we still slot those jobs in because you don't need to be perfectly optimized all the time to do content.
Perfectly said. You don't have to cor/brd/geo to everything. That gets boring quickly too.
I can't speak for every server. But on fenrir we don't operate like that. I haven't seen a party built in a long time that requires particulars.
I can't believe somebody actually made the illogical comparison between GEO's contribution to a party vs BSTs.
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Asura.Sirris said: »
Crossbones said: »
Yeah so I'm just gonna reiterate what I and others have said before. All BST really has is the slug, and when you don't need the attack or defense down you don't have ***, you're a gimp WAR with a couple other tricks. What slot is BST supposed to fill in a 6 man PT? Do they replace a COR or BRD? Nope, capped haste + acc and SAM roll too much to give up. Maybe a GEO? If you don't need anything other than frailty/fury maybe. Would they replace a DPS job? Well if you already have GEO COR and BRD you probably won't need anything BST brings to the table so you might as well grab a job that either does more DMG or a RDM or something else.
I agree with this but I'd point out that this logic is kind of a slippery slope that catches a lot of other jobs in the same net lol. Blue mage can dps, debuff, and CC all at once but it doesn't do any of those things better than other jobs in a standard party setup where haste is capped. Dancer can dps, debuff, and heal but it doesn't do any of those things better than other jobs unless you need its unique debuffs. The list of jobs that are best at important roles leaves out a lot of jobs. But we still slot those jobs in because you don't need to be perfectly optimized all the time to do content.
If BST doesn't have slug and kaja axe, I'd think that BLU and DNC are both more useful as a DD than BST unless you need physical cleave, lol.
MG from BLU for the entire pt is always useful for everyone else, nevermind beastly DPS from tizona, and DNC can setup multistep SC on adds.
Without slug and kaja axe, I can't think of unique strategy outside of cleaving on BST, but maybe someone else can come up with a better idea than me.
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Thing is, people go "this job provides more damage, ergo its better". Cor is probably a bit overtuned, yeah, but its not gunna provide haste, so youd probably prefer a haste job over cor if it comes down to it.
It also lacks options for dispel(ga) spam or sleep(ga) spam, given its qd charges.
Other options do exist, and id argue that while blu may not be the best at support, it has the widest available self support and general party/alliance utility, which can be of more use than just another support depending on what you have. Optimal play is never optimal in practice, and utility usually wins out.
Likewise, bst does have some nice general utility to help keep *** under control;
Sleeps, aoe tanking pet, aoe terror to name a few that have already been mentioned. Having the option to fall back on an oh ***method or two is always welcome.
It also lacks options for dispel(ga) spam or sleep(ga) spam, given its qd charges.
Other options do exist, and id argue that while blu may not be the best at support, it has the widest available self support and general party/alliance utility, which can be of more use than just another support depending on what you have. Optimal play is never optimal in practice, and utility usually wins out.
Likewise, bst does have some nice general utility to help keep *** under control;
Sleeps, aoe tanking pet, aoe terror to name a few that have already been mentioned. Having the option to fall back on an oh ***method or two is always welcome.
Afania said: »
In a party without the def- and kaja axe people will just invite another job instead.
Ermah said: »
I disagree 100%, I think BST is fine without Dolichenus and the slug, but I didn't add that because it's pointless to argue with people on the internet.
You have all these morons screaming that bst is fine while 3 English and 4 Japanese threads are endlessly complaining about how bad bst is. Wonder why JP players were throwing aymur away lol. Yeah you can ride your bike to work, but a car is much faster/safer. Bst is a bike while most other jobs are cars.
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
I can't believe somebody actually made the illogical comparison between GEO's contribution to a party vs BSTs.
Asura.Sirris said: »
Also, put beastmaster on better gear!
That NEEDS to happen. Bst gear is pretty bad.
Crossbones said: »
Lol at aoe "tanking".
At minimum. Bst needs a gear overhaul and the pet needs more acc/atk/def/hp/macc. Master DPS is fine, pet is still pretty weak. We now have 2 decent pets. Neither are a useful unless something else is broker. (sleep spells or geo nerf)
Fenrir.Kaldaek said: »
A Hybrid support role.
Which makes sense, since it isnt great at support.
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Players can spout whatever they want from the rooftops, and still be completely wrong.
Beastmaster IS fine. On a power level, it is competitive for the spot it would take compared to comparable jobs.
Problem is almost entirely QoL. A few things are frustrating to use in practice, making its strengths feel worse than they actually are. Add to this players general want to bandwagon on fotm setups and never deviate from them unless something is so obviously, absurdly broken, and you get what we have.
Bst doesnt need more power to be good. It just needs to feel better to use. Yes, the QoL improvements will end up being power positive just by their nature. It should still land in a good spot without becoming broken.
Beastmaster IS fine. On a power level, it is competitive for the spot it would take compared to comparable jobs.
Problem is almost entirely QoL. A few things are frustrating to use in practice, making its strengths feel worse than they actually are. Add to this players general want to bandwagon on fotm setups and never deviate from them unless something is so obviously, absurdly broken, and you get what we have.
Bst doesnt need more power to be good. It just needs to feel better to use. Yes, the QoL improvements will end up being power positive just by their nature. It should still land in a good spot without becoming broken.
Spaitin said: »
They have come out and said they dont want bst to be a support role job.
Doesnt matter what they say, that will be what type of roll it will fill. It wont fill a pure support role, but it will fill in as a mid-high DD mid-high utility hybrid.
Or as the other person put it, a damage support hybrid.
Bismarck.Rwolf said: »
Afania said: »
They are speaking from party perspective, not solo perspective.
Ermah, if you feel BST in its current state with most of the mechanics broken is fixed. Hey, good for you. I hear you and 100% disagree. Feel free to go tell SE BST is complete. Saying stuff like I just got a chuckle at how dumb your argument is and wanted to share... *shrug* ok lol. Maybe you're passionate about BST and want others to not see criticisms as devaluing the job. But that's all the energy I got to pour into insults lol.
IF you take melee weapons away from warrior they are a bad DD.
Afania said: »
Bismarck.Nyaarun said: »
Take away dnc steps, and its just a worse thf that can sometimes finish off haste for some DDs
Again, making the argument that a lot of benefit comes from a specific pet isnt a complaint, or a valid argument. Taking away utility from any utility job is going to be a massive nerf.
Your argument could literally be said about any utility based job.
Again, making the argument that a lot of benefit comes from a specific pet isnt a complaint, or a valid argument. Taking away utility from any utility job is going to be a massive nerf.
Your argument could literally be said about any utility based job.
Not even a worse thf since dnc currently has access to better offensive gears. If it wasn't for FM I wouldn't bother with steps outside of Dyna D. Pdif is easy to cap as it is. Using steps just generates more JA delay for nothing
Ermah said: »
I disagree 100%, I think BST is fine without Dolichenus and the slug,
They are speaking from party perspective, not solo perspective.
In a party without the def- and kaja axe people will just invite another job instead.
I think you're overestimating how hard this game is... Unless you're doing Dynamis Wave 3 or Reisenjima HELMs Bst can literally DD in every other scenario just fine.
But since we're not talking about a made up world where SE takes away something good a job has to make a point, BST can DD in Wave 3 just fine.
Is it the best? No probably not, but it fills the role just fine and its unique and fun to play. I just feel people won't be happy unless its the best.
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For the most part, everyone is in agreement that the job needs QoL buffs to feel better. No one is disputing that there is a lot of clunkiness to the job.
Problem is people are saying the job is weak because of said clunkiness, or suggesting that its only primary contributions are a few specific things. Neither suggest the job is weak or not as useful. Bst has a fine niche and has useful support as-is, and is fun to play in its own right. It is, power wise, by definition, on par with other jobs vying for a similar spot.
Problem is people are saying the job is weak because of said clunkiness, or suggesting that its only primary contributions are a few specific things. Neither suggest the job is weak or not as useful. Bst has a fine niche and has useful support as-is, and is fun to play in its own right. It is, power wise, by definition, on par with other jobs vying for a similar spot.
Ermah said: »
Reisenjima HELMs
Ermah said: »
I just feel people won't be happy unless its the best
You dont want bst buffs because you think people wont think it is enough? wtf? Also people dont want it to be the best, they do want it to be close to the best. Have you been reading any these comments?
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Ermah said: »
IF you take melee weapons away from warrior they are a bad DD.
If you're actually making that comparison then you are saying Dolichenus and slug are BSTs only decent weapons. Your attempts at comparison make no sense to what was being discussed. You just interjected your own feelings and agenda into it.
In your mind you see me saying "If you take away Dolichenus and Slug, BST is a bad DD" and feel the need to argue about it.
In actuality I'm saying "Look at how most of BSTs power is regulated to a single axe and unique party attribute is regulated to a single pet. SE should spread that out."
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