Riot 4: Rocky Vs. Ivan

It's a matter of context. mace is fine. Pepperspray is fine. (honestly, I like sonic nausea, I think it's hilarious...)

Spray the crowd: you're a piece of ***.

Spray the guy resisting; yeah, I get it, taze him too, I'm in. Prove you have a reason to do it.

That's not the question I asked. You did not like one of the sentences I wrote and decided to novella that.

Portland is not the only place where Democrats and protesters are demanding the police to stop using any kind of force. There was just a story yesterday where over 100 police related agencies now stepped down from their security contracts to protect the Democratic National Convention in Wisc. when the Milwaukee Fire and Police Commission directed Milwaukee's Chief of Police to not use pepper spray. That is actually where my question comes from.

Ok then, what would be a reason for you? Because vandalism (or just meandering in the street)at any other time is illegal, you get arrested for it and if you resist that arrest, you tend to have necessary force placed upon you, because you've now incurred the higher crime of resisting arrest.

It just seems there is this swath of people on one side of the argument that feels, "This is riot season and during riot season, SOME laws should be allowed to be broken." Who decides which ones?

Law is the law. No exceptions. No excuses.

Where it gets tough to navigate is a "new instant law" like a curfew. Break the curfew get the appropriate penalty, aka; not get *** kidnapped by a dude in a minivan.

Body cams solve damn near every single possible scenario. Prove it. It's right there on tape. "ok"

The entire "situation" is

Excessive force.
Inappropriate response.
Lack of common sense.
Willful disobedience by police. (turning off body cameras etc)
And lack of consequences.

Nothing is easier than fixing every one of those.

I didn't want to triple but whatever.

Unions solve about 95% of the problem. Police. Do not need unions. unions protect the "weak" from bosses/owners etc. 'workers' have no power in a company.

The police ARE the bosses. They have ALL the power in the "relationship". We need the unions to protect US. from. THEM. (and we do have those, but they're nothing comparatively)

based on who's interpretation can this be achieved? What one may consider excessive force another may say its not enough force.


inappropriate response? how can this be defined?

Lack of common sense? Common sense isn't too common. Though a lot of people act different in the heat of the moment.

A lot of the problems with the police can mostly be resolved with more and better training. However defunding or abolishing them doesn't help the situation imo. There should be more training, oversight and accountability for all their actions but at the same time we need them to be able to do their job up to what the law allows them to do and trust them to do so. There's always going to be people who suck at their job or who are just bad in general but we need to trust the organization as a whole that they are upholding the law to the best of their ability.

There's wiggle room, good example; not pinning someone to the ground for a counterfeit twenty. Not tazing a teenager for graffiti. Not shoving a 60 year old man. Real obvious stuff. Apply the "it ain't that serious" test. "excessive force"

You don't need an APC with 40 fully armed SWAT officers for an oz of weed etc. "inappropriate response"

More training, wholesale, absofuckinglutely, across the board.

The whole of the "defund / abolish" thing no matter how many times you explain it no one listens. Police largely abuse their funding. Unquestionably. There's dozens of reports/docuseries on "overtime arrests" etc. What it REALLY means, is better over site of how funds are spent and re-appropriation for the waste to social safety programs.

"people suck at their jobs everywhere not just police" Yes, but, they're not "apples to apples" You can't have some shitty pilots. You can't have some shitty cooks. Peoples lives are reliant on you not sucking at your job. And those unions enable shitty officers that should be replaced.

Full stop in so many words; Better police. With no excuses. (more training, more "intelligence", more "reasoning power", problem solving skills other than "shoot it", maybe a modicum of restraint, with constant mental evaluations by an outside provider, and accountability)

Also, again cameras are "non-negotiable".

They make a questionable scenario, unquestionable. Priority one. Cops can't be trusted. Citizens can't be trusted. Camera makes it moot. (3rd party storage so no alteration/"lost footage" etc)

I think we both want the same thing. Just the way we want to achieve it is entirely different.

side note ~ you absolutely can have shitty pilots and cooks. I am one of them ~ can barely make anything past packaged ramen xD

I mean like restaurant, come on you know that.

You can only give so many people food poisoning before you get canned. But a cop can have literally hundreds of excessive force claims and NEVER even blink twice. And worst case scenario, they join a new unit in another city and all the files 'disappear".

"well some of it not all of those complaints are exaggerated"

Cameras. Every time. Every answer.

True, but so do schools. So do educational administrations. They get millions from lottery/legal gambling, plus levies of which they scream and picket at least every other year for more money, yet, their seems to never be any investigations or accountability to where all that money goes. According to teachers, it's not going to them nor classroom supplies.

I don't disagree with the body cam thing, but if you have an angry mob throwing cans and bottles at you because you are trying to stop them from tearing down a public monument, you do a lot of bobbing and weaving...that camera isn't too steady and often doesn't really clearly record what's going on. In that situation, there is literally ZERO way to only point out one or two people and nail them with pepper spray. You have to just hold down the trigger and hit the lot of them.

We've been defunding schools for a hundred+ years. Why is that ok but not police? Equal argument. Equal treatment. The focus is police. We can talk about shitty education system and all it's failings another time. because yes, there are MANY.

"full blown riot scenario" there are... 50 body cams. Across them all you will have the full picture.

But again; Apply the rules; a "full blown riot" verified by multiple body cams, is extreme circumstance, so, extreme measures.

1 rioter in 99 protestors, completely different. and again, the camera is key. Every protestor that impedes your ability to detain the single rioter, are detainable as well. Again, prove it. it's on camera.

We can't have a conversation if we are going to just make things up. It was a comment on unions, which I didn't bring up.



I mean if we want to stay on topic then, stay on topic. I asked about police use of force, what is force in you all's opinion, what to you all allows the use of it.



Unfortunately not in every situation. Watch the video below (the part I am referencing begins at about the 4:33 mark. The lot of the police were surrounded by a much larger amount of people than they had with them and they were being bombarded. That, in my opinion, allows mass use of pepper spray just over the crowd, no way to single anyone out. If you are in that crowd, you are part of that crowd and part of it's actions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=275&v=qSdBb58MENM&feature=emb_logo

This video (edit).

And by the way thank you for at least answering Eiryl. It seems nobody else wants to actually state what their opinion of acceptable force is, or, give their idea on how to control a violent crowd without the use of force. I'm trying to say, just complaining about something without real alternatives is pointless.

And I forgot to add, the rioters were using umbrellas to protect themselves and hide their identity, let alone the masks/sunglasses they tend to wear. Basically impossible for a police officer to single out a particular instigator. In these situations, spray the crowd, grab as many as you can and chuck them in the paddy wagons. But, you can't do that when Mayors and commissions are disallowing the use of tear gas or pepper spray, but still expect them to do their jobs. How can they?

Not sure how defunding education became tied to teachers unions... wasn't intended to be the same.

Defunding police is just the force. Disbanding the unions is unrelated. I try extra hard to be very clear exactly what I mean.

The video not going to watch it right now net just went out. Bit I'll assume it's from one perspective. That's kind of the point, you have multiple perspectives in real time. Perfectly fine with drones as well (camera) in actual riot scenarios.

To your other post, yeah actual verified riot yes, tear gas etc. They are all rioters.

Even the mayor's etc are fine with that. The problem is, they're defining everything as a riot. This is a big problem.

See, definitions, I think this is where the conflict is mostly.

Now, if there is a crowd, walking side by side, chanting, whatever, down the street, like Martin Luther King style I agree, that is a protest. Even though technically they are breaking laws by blocking the streets while walking, not such an offense that could not be overlooked. Blocking a highway so people cannot get to the hospital for injuries, mother giving birth in the car, people trying to get to work so they don't get canned...eh, that's not a peaceful protest. That's possibly killing someone.

But most of the videos that show these protests, even the ones that are TRYING to show just a peaceful protest, look like mostly mayhem to me. You can always see in the sides and backgrounds people jumping on cars, breaking windows, even in Portland they were attacking a police precinct prior to the feds coming in. I've only seen a very, very few videos of what I would call an actual peaceful protest. Tearing down a monument, no matter who it's of, without permission, is not a peaceful protest to me. It's no different than looting stores and burning cars. Just an example.

Drawing the line is everything. This is why we have elected and appointed peoples to make those decisions.

We trust them to do the right thing. And often enough they don't.

And still the most important point is: How do you prevent the riot, rather than how do you quell the riot.

No matter the outcome, it will always be "bad" damage, death, imprisonment etc. Instead prevent the riot from happening. We've been around for 250 years. Riots are extremely rare. Not because we're good at quelling riots, but because we maintain the barest minimum of civility. There was a clear line crossed (and trampled on) and this is the result. And it's not even that the line was crossed, it happens. But there is still absolutely zero accountability for it. It's such an easy fix. (in this case)

The impending riots about to "kick off" (evictions/UI) in slightly less than a week. yall are ***, I got nothing for that one. it's going to be biblical. it requires an entire systemic change to literally everything. and I hope it doesn't happen (the chaos) but it seems like an inevitability.

I don't know what UI is TBH. I'm not certain how people thought they could go on indefinitely without paying bills, though. And, how stupid you'd have to be to blame your neighbor for Covid and trash their residence/vehicle when they had zero to do with you not having money.

Also, most of the rioters, if it does happen, like most of the rioters for the police protests, probably weren't paying their bills too well prior to Covid, anyhow. Hard to hold down a paying job while camping out in a town square for 3 weeks.

Here's a taste; first one I've seen (not a riot, just in regards to evictions) Protesters want evictions to be on hold again - courts blocked
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WiL2mAd22E
A group of protesters blocked entrance to court Thursday in New Orleans, protesting against evictions being allowed again.

Maybe they could make it conditional?

Like, if you have a record of always paying rent prior to the losing your job due to Covid reasons, not your own, they could stay those. But if you are just some a~hole who has a history of being late/not paying and it has zero to do with Covid related issues, then GFY. I think that would be fair.

Oh cripes, these are all the same actors. I mean, look at the clowns at the 0:28 mark, Antifa~like clowns written all over them. These all look like 23 or under professional protesters that are probably mobilized by OFA.

UI means unemployment insurance : the bonus $600 weekly is over.

If you're in MI for example you're going to drop from $760 to $160 tomorrow. And all the mortgages and rent is due from march-august on august 1st.
There is absolutely no possible way those can be paid. This is the cause of the impending riots.

Piled on top of the "rock and a hard place" of work vs school, inability to get/pay for child care, being forced back to work because the UI is gone.


They could, but, "what about the landlords they have bills that they need to pay too and their only income is rent from renters"

it requires all bills for every single american to be held. and it's just not feasible.

No idea, I don't receive unemployment or public assistance of any kind, can't even get a relief check (but if I was an illegal immigrant in Cali I'd have gotten one) so I don't know about these things nor do they affect me.

And you are right, lessors need to pay bills as well. But actually, it would cost taxpayers much less money in the end to subsidize the loss for lessors than every single person who can't make rent JUST because of a Covid related job loss. I mean, if we're suggesting just giving people taxpayer money to stop them from burning ***down.

Which reminds me, I actually had a good idea for reparations that might be fair enough to appease the pro and against sides.

This is an actual photo I took about 50 yards behind my house, so none of these riots really affect me. But the shutdown does affect my 74 year old mother's fixed income due to the fact she basically lives off of the investment portfolio left to her by my late father. So the Covid shutdown is much more concerning than adolescents throwing tantrums over a white guy statue.