Warrior: DW/Fencer/Polearm/H2H/Ranged.
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Warrior: DW/Fencer/Polearm/H2H/Ranged.
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 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-11-09 00:00:53
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Sylph.Brahmsz said: »
I tend to forget about Single Wield Fencer TP bonus. But isn't the inherant problem with Single Wield builds that you are trading higher fTP WS damage for slower melee swings?

To some extent, yes. But you also have the offhand stats to consider. And while TP Bonus +1000 is really nice, Barbarity +1 also has some killer stats that need quite a bit to overcome.

Is it really worth giving up STR+28 WSD+8% Atk+50 in order to get TP Bonus +1000 (and the possibility of offhand acc struggles)? My thought is probably not, but would be interested in seeing more data.
 Crossbones
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By Crossbones 2019-11-10 15:57:41
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Given that Savage damage nearly doubles from 1-2k TP there is virtually no way in hell barbarity would beat magian unless you are overTPing or have savagery up. Savage is a lot like rudras and other high tp FTP scaling mods, dogshit at 1k but god tier at 2k. Now if you have lag or something (hi dyna) and can't help but overtp or can't make up for the acc loss then barbarity would win. Fencer builds are also dogshit, gonna TP way too slow since the closer you are to 80% delay reduction the more valuable each percent of reduction is. Going from 80% reduction to 70% is something like half the swing speed.
 Asura.Veikur
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By Asura.Veikur 2019-11-10 16:53:55
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Single wield only misses out on 1.25% delay reduction.

Without considering any other factors

Naegling/Shield
Swing - 0.85s
TP/Round - 75.67
11.2s to 1000 TP


Naegling/Kaja
Swing - 1.6s
TP/Round - 122
13.1s to 1000 TP

single wield at 78.75 haste TP's faster than /NIN dual wield.
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 Asura.Mysticzero
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By Asura.Mysticzero 2019-11-10 19:06:07
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Let us play a board game if you will.
Renaud's axe TP Bonus +1000
We can use these two sets as a speculation or base build. Not to include zone buffs.
Acc: 973 Acc: 971
ItemSet 369182ItemSet 369184


Spells used that can be used to enhance accuracy.
Sword Madrigal: 85~
Blade Madrigal: 114~
Honor March: 58~
Hunter’s Roll: 85~(Regal)
Precision: 50(Idris or Bolster)
Sublime Sushi: 100Acc
(Not)Maximum/Close Max Acc+ Buffs~ : Total > +492

It is some what a rule of thumb to use Sushi, Blade Mad, Vic March, HM on just about everything 129+ while a BRD is present in party. Usually leaving 1-2 slots open for buffs. Could use another Mad and/or Mineut V.

When a Geo is present in a melee setup vs w/e a Geo is going to use Ifury, GeoFrailty leaving an option for an entrust precision.

Cor present is usually going to use a variation of Chaos/Sam, Fighters/Sam, and maybe but unlikely Fighters/Chaos. If convinced Cor could use Fighters/Hunters, Sams/Hunters.

After over looking some very old post on reddit 1200 acc is goal for most content 119-129.
1300-1400 for ilvl 130-140ish
1400-1900 for ilvl 145+

If you had these buffers at your disposal you could end up with 1465 accuracy making it usable on higher content. Plug and play.
 Crossbones
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By Crossbones 2019-11-10 21:31:37
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There is no way your math is right on that delay calculation. Pretty sure you included hasso which you can't use single wield.
 Asura.Veikur
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By Asura.Veikur 2019-11-10 21:40:16
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25+43.75+10 gear/magic/samba
 Crossbones
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By Crossbones 2019-11-11 00:25:40
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You're not always gonna have a dnc to give you samba in pt lol. I don't even use that ***when I'm in dnc cause it's a waste of tp and normally people should be haste capped without it. This is why fencer sucks. Under just about every circumstance you tp significantly slower. It's a hipster build at best.
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 Asura.Veikur
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By Asura.Veikur 2019-11-11 00:32:12
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Crossbones said: »
It's a hipster build at best.
Kinda the literal point of this thread existing, yeah.
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 Asura.Sirris
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By Asura.Sirris 2019-11-11 01:00:14
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Cloudsplitter:

ItemSet 369648

Odyssean with STR/mab/macc/wsd
Cichol's with STR/mdmg/macc/wsd
 Crossbones
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By Crossbones 2019-11-11 01:13:23
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Actually now that you bring up haste samba you could make a swap for your dw set to increase tp return and replace dw with other stats like da or stp in the rare situation that dnc haste samba is available.
 Asura.Veikur
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By Asura.Veikur 2019-11-11 02:37:56
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You can't, mostly. Dual wield (and Martial Arts, maybe sword strap too?) are accounted for before haste.

Technically, iirc, WAR has to run another 6 or 7 DW without samba, but I was assuming samba up above as well.
 Crossbones
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By Crossbones 2019-11-11 09:20:18
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That doesn't make sense to me. If war/dnc with gimp haste samba up needs less dw than war/nin without haste samba wouldn't that mean war/nin would need less dw with a dnc giving haste samba? Like the bg page about dual weild literally lists how much dw you need at certain haste values and I'm just going off that.
 malakef
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By malakef 2019-11-11 10:24:04
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I don’t feel like running the math fully but I’m not sure /nin DW with the sword main hand is actually much faster TP gain over fencer build sub SAM even without haste samba. Swords low delay combined with the negative impacts of DW to TP gain make the sword builds tp at the lower formula which is alluded to in the numbers Veikur gave. What’s not in those numbers though are the tp from SAM sub making it 87.01 base not 75.67 per hit. So it’s already competitive without haste samba and never have to worry with accuracy issues (not that you will anyways). So then it comes down to the damage difference in WS which I honesty don’t know how it will look. Fencer build is better than people are letting on here.
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 Crossbones
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By Crossbones 2019-11-11 11:32:27
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Just calculate the difference in delay between non haste samba 68% or whatever delay 1h vs 80% delay DW it should be almost 40%? slower swing speed. I don't think that's competitive at all. Also it's not confirmed SAM is even the best sub with 1h now that DRG WSD perk is a thing, but that's a different subject.

Someone correct me if my math is dumb but it seems like if you used just kaja sword delay as an example:

156 x 0.2 (capped delay) = 31.2
156 x 0.32 (68% delay) = 49.9
31.2 / 49.9 = 0.62 or 62% of the delay reduction.

I smoke a lot of weed and never did super hot in math class so I could be wrong but as far as i understand that's how differences in delay are calculated. Yeah yeah there's also DW tp gain penalties and such but at the end of the day without DNC haste samba almost 40% less delay reduction compared to DW is a lot to overcome IMO.
 SimonSes
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By SimonSes 2019-11-11 12:07:28
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Crossbones said: »
I smoke a lot of weed
Crossbones said: »
156 x 0.2 (capped delay) = 31.2
156 x 0.32 (68% delay) = 49.9

Quite accurate about that weed. You took kaja sword damage as delay rofl :D
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 SimonSes
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By SimonSes 2019-11-11 12:22:21
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Now to add something productive to discussion. Taking real Kaja sword delay, which is 240 we get

75 delay with capped gear/magic haste (68.75%)
48 delay with capped delay
96 delay with capped delay while DW

75 delay is 62.5% slower (not 40% slower)

but since we compare dw to single we have

96 delay with 112.76 base tp (not gonna bother with rounding)
75 delay with 75.67 base tp

So 36%DW, 68.75%haste DW Kaja swords is 1.17458 TP per 1 delay
and 68.75%haste single Kaja sword is 1.00893 TP per 1 delay

DW has ~16.4% faster TP generation

EDIT: I wrote 78.75% instead of 68.75% in this post, but it was only a mistake in description. I used 68.75% in calculations.
 Crossbones
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By Crossbones 2019-11-11 12:31:36
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ok cool I knew something was up but yeah 16% sounds right (I got that in some of my other calculations but wasn't sure if that was right either). And yeah also looks like I flipped the 62% and 40% lol god damn American education. So in other words if you have haste samba from a DNC fencer should win no contest but DW vs 68% haste fencer is a decent amount more TP generation or WS frequency vs higher WS avg from blurred shield.

Another thing I was wondering about, is there a cap on fencer TP bonus? What is the maximum obtainable amount within reason (for example not having to sacrifice a good slot for a point of fencer).

*** that's a funny mistake though. Yeah pretty much anytime I ever make a post about math feel free to correct me I won't take it personal haha.

Edit: In the weird situation you have DNC haste samba and DW with 11 less DW in gear to account for the added JA haste how would that compare to 1h + fencer with the same haste samba?
 Nariont
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By Nariont 2019-11-11 12:34:05
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+730 TP i think, maybe 830 if emp legs +2 beats out a wsd piece that's capped gifts, war neck, blurred +1 and emp legs+1
 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-11-11 13:06:40
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Crossbones said: »
So in other words if you have haste samba from a DNC fencer should win no contest but DW vs 68% haste fencer is a decent amount more TP generation or WS frequency vs higher WS avg from blurred shield.

A little something for solo+trust situations: Mayakov will use Haste Samba, so might be useful for this sort of thing. Uka and Mumor also use it, but they can Drain Samba too - Mayakov's only Samba is Haste Samba. Not sure whether any of the Trust DNC get 10% JA Haste samba (like a DNC main 5/5 merits), or if they're all 5% like /DNC or unmerited DNC (probably the case).

Assuming 5% JA haste, that's still gonna leave you at ~73.63% delay reduction... so, slower than DW builds, but at least better than the 68.5% cap for no JA haste (capped gear haste 256/1024 and capped magical haste 448/1024)

10% JA haste (Merited Haste Samba, Hasso) leaves you near capped delay, at ~78.61% reduction (about 6 DW under 80% delay reduction cap)
 SimonSes
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By SimonSes 2019-11-11 13:19:46
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5% haste samba is enough to push Single Wielding tp generation above DW build (by around 2.75%) which also means that you can go /dnc and haste samba by yourself.
 Crossbones
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By Crossbones 2019-11-11 16:53:03
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Yeah but ugh it feels so gross to use haste samba. Like you gotta burn 350 TP, it doesn't last very long, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't activate until the second attack round after you apply it (could be wrong). Still it's good to know the math behind it, thanks!
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-11-11 17:00:20
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Haste Samba only activates on the attack round after the one it's applied and is a real PITA to keep up, I know because it's one of the first things I tried using back when I designed fencer and later DW builds. Haste Samba doesn't actually give you any haste at all, it just empowers your weapons with an en-daze effect that applies Haste Daze to the enemy. Daze is a debuff that gives a bonus to anything hitting the thing it's on, Haste Daze would give a temporarily JA haste effect as a buff anytime someone hit the monster.

Daze effects are really useful on singular targets with big HP that takes a minute or so to kill and you can start off with over 1K TP, otherwise it becomes a waste of time / TP. It sucks on any fast fights where you can't store TP ahead of time, or fights were your moving rapidly between many fights, meaning it's only good against Escha NM's and maybe UNM's but not in BC's or Dynamis, possibly Omen.
 malakef
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By malakef 2019-11-11 22:22:37
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Still didn’t add the stp from /Sam. Same numbers have now been reported a couple times. So 87 tp with 75 delay is 1.16 tp per one delay or basically the same damn thing as DW but you get 7 more WSD with the shield.

Also the Fencer bonus to tp is probably going to be 830 or 930 depending on if using legs or not. Which means the real difference in damage comes from 170 Tp versus 7WSD and some slight accuracy concerns. The 170 should still win by about ~5%. This should let you back into a minimum accuracy threshold before TP offhand isn’t worth it. Unlike BlU which can practically have floored off hand accuracy and still be the best choice, for war it needs to be much higher or fencer just wins.

And /dnc is a terrible idea. Maintaining that is a loss of time from JA delay and strait up tp from activating the ability. Not to mention it’s annoying as hell to have to do so damn often.
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 Crossbones
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By Crossbones 2019-11-12 12:05:40
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Is it assumed that after the drg patch /sam is still the go to sub with fencer in the event fencer build is viable to begin with?
 malakef
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By malakef 2019-11-12 12:08:50
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I think we need a simulator to find out. /DRG going to be slower in the TP but those boosted WS might make up for it. In any case if you are holding TP /drg is probably the choice and it’s what I have been messing around with recently. Just my personal parses I can tell you total dps is close.
 SimonSes
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By SimonSes 2019-11-12 13:04:33
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You cant say /sam evens out DW advantage, because /sam is not the only store tp in build, especially when sam roll is present. So in reality when you will have way over 100 store TP, that 15 from /sam wont cover that loss from DW.

malakef said: »
And /dnc is a terrible idea.

/dnc is pretty much 20% faster TP than /drg and assuming 100 storeTP at least from other sources, it's also ~12% faster than /sam. I wouldn't call that terrible idea. You would need to further calculate the loss of 350TP and 1sec ja delay every 90 sec. It's probably not a good idea when you switch target a lot, but while fighting one or few enemies, it might be very good.
 Asura.Sirris
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By Asura.Sirris 2019-11-12 15:30:07
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OP, as an FYI, Barbarity +1 should lose to both Zantetsuken and a well-augmented DA-augmented Digirabalag, maybe even Firangi as well, for Decimation.
 Asura.Mysticzero
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By Asura.Mysticzero 2019-11-12 16:05:51
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Asura.Sirris said: »
OP, as an FYI, Barbarity +1 should lose to both Zantetsuken and a well-augmented DA-augmented Digirabalag, maybe even Firangi as well, for Decimation.
ItemSet 369370
Decimation 3Hit.
DA 100% - 33%(Job Trait)
DA 67% - 32% (Crooked Regal Fighters)
DA 35% - 46% (DA already in the gear) 11 Over Cap.

Fact: Any weapon skill other than Asuran Fist and Elemental Weaponskills can proc a MA twice.
Seeing as you are already going to hit 5 times just with the numbers up top. Why Digirbalag?

Zantetsuken Sure. When and only when QA procs.
The WSD on Barbarity will always proc on the first hit. Always.

Note: I should however change Neck from War Neck to Fotia and Telos to Cessance.

Edit: I suppose i didnt state that build was designed for Fighters Roll. Just about every build i have up there is unless it says (FR Down). You are probably correct under the assumption of rolls like SAM/Chaos.

Edit Number 2: Updated and added another Decimation Build. One for Fighters Roll and one for SAM/CHAOS.

Edit Number 3: SAM/CHAOS not looking so hot for buffs Vs Fighters/SAMs..
 Asura.Mysticzero
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By Asura.Mysticzero 2019-11-12 20:49:42
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Asura.Sirris said: »
Cloudsplitter:

ItemSet 369648

Odyssean with STR/mab/macc/wsd
Cichol's with STR/mdmg/macc/wsd
This set looks pretty solid. I have added it to the front page.
 Crossbones
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By Crossbones 2019-11-13 15:24:00
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Wouldn't the WSD on barbarity be subject to diminishing returns on a weapon with 120 WSD? On top of already only being active for 1/5+ hits on a WS.
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