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Random Politics & Religion #38: The 38th One
 Ragnarok.Ozment
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By Ragnarok.Ozment 2019-10-05 12:48:30
Well now, if that is the case I guess Trump should be worried about those high crimes. According to the following government website, it is illegal to accept contributions from a foreign national "in connection with an election to any political office or in connection with any primary election, convention, or caucus held to select candidates for any political office."
Trump never accepted any money from them. Past that the burden is on the accuser to show that some non-monetary contribution was both requested and delivered, which btw was at the center of the Russian Collusion investigation.
There already was a text message where one official asked about that and the response from the staff was that there absolutely wasn't any quid pro quo happening.
I don't think monetary contributions are in question. The contribution requested from Trump was information. If this is headed into litigation, and it very well looks that way, an argument that the word 'contribution' is solely referred to as something monetary is going to be a very weak defense...especially considering its use in the English language. A person can contribute their time, their knowledge, their information, or their money.
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By fonewear 2019-10-05 14:31:31
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 Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2019-10-05 15:14:53
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Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-10-05 16:33:34
Well now, if that is the case I guess Trump should be worried about those high crimes. According to the following government website, it is illegal to accept contributions from a foreign national "in connection with an election to any political office or in connection with any primary election, convention, or caucus held to select candidates for any political office."
Trump never accepted any money from them. Past that the burden is on the accuser to show that some non-monetary contribution was both requested and delivered, which btw was at the center of the Russian Collusion investigation.
There already was a text message where one official asked about that and the response from the staff was that there absolutely wasn't any quid pro quo happening.
I don't think monetary contributions are in question. The contribution requested from Trump was information. If this is headed into litigation, and it very well looks that way, an argument that the word 'contribution' is solely referred to as something monetary is going to be a very weak defense...especially considering its use in the English language. A person can contribute their time, their knowledge, their information, or their money.
Thankfully such wide interpretations aren't used. Hell in theory shiroi has illegally contributed to Bidens and Warrens 2020 campaign using your definition.
The "illegal campaign contributions" angle was resolved during the Mueller investigation and it's a very strong no. It would require one party eliciting a specific contribution for the specific goal of the an election campaign. That didn't happen which is why the Democrats are going for the quid-pro-quo angle.
Bahamut.Ravael
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Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2019-10-05 17:05:55
Welcome to the thread, Oz. You need to first acquaint yourself with the number one rule of P&R, as seen below:
Once you have that committed to memory, you'll do just fine.
Ragnarok.Ozment
Server: Ragnarok
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Posts: 1116
By Ragnarok.Ozment 2019-10-05 17:35:59
Well now, if that is the case I guess Trump should be worried about those high crimes. According to the following government website, it is illegal to accept contributions from a foreign national "in connection with an election to any political office or in connection with any primary election, convention, or caucus held to select candidates for any political office."
Trump never accepted any money from them. Past that the burden is on the accuser to show that some non-monetary contribution was both requested and delivered, which btw was at the center of the Russian Collusion investigation.
There already was a text message where one official asked about that and the response from the staff was that there absolutely wasn't any quid pro quo happening.
I don't think monetary contributions are in question. The contribution requested from Trump was information. If this is headed into litigation, and it very well looks that way, an argument that the word 'contribution' is solely referred to as something monetary is going to be a very weak defense...especially considering its use in the English language. A person can contribute their time, their knowledge, their information, or their money.
Thankfully such wide interpretations aren't used. Hell in theory shiroi has illegally contributed to Bidens and Warrens 2020 campaign using your definition.
The "illegal campaign contributions" angle was resolved during the Mueller investigation and it's a very strong no. It would require one party eliciting a specific contribution for the specific goal of the an election campaign. That didn't happen which is why the Democrats are going for the quid-pro-quo angle.
Yes, I am fully aware of the investigations and conclusion of the Mueller report. In fact, it can be read here:
https://www.justice.gov/storage/report.pdf
It found that while the Russians did interfere in our 2016 election in a "sweeping and systematic fashion", it was not considered an illegal campaign contribution because there was no evidence linking it to the Trump Administration. That's the key difference in the current Ukraine/China investigation. We have both Trump and Giuliani admitting they requested this information from foreign nationals. The reason this is considered so unconscionable is because those foreign nationals have their own interests for the sharing of information that does not necessarily coincide with America's best interest. Now I voted for Trump, and I gave him a pass with the whole Russian collusion thing because there was no evidence. But this...this is different. In the past few weeks I have lost a lot of confidence in this administration, and I'm done defending Trump. The Dems are running full speed with this one, and I can't blame them.
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By Nausi 2019-10-05 18:01:20
Well now, if that is the case I guess Trump should be worried about those high crimes. According to the following government website, it is illegal to accept contributions from a foreign national "in connection with an election to any political office or in connection with any primary election, convention, or caucus held to select candidates for any political office."
Trump never accepted any money from them. Past that the burden is on the accuser to show that some non-monetary contribution was both requested and delivered, which btw was at the center of the Russian Collusion investigation.
There already was a text message where one official asked about that and the response from the staff was that there absolutely wasn't any quid pro quo happening.
I don't think monetary contributions are in question. The contribution requested from Trump was information. If this is headed into litigation, and it very well looks that way, an argument that the word 'contribution' is solely referred to as something monetary is going to be a very weak defense...especially considering its use in the English language. A person can contribute their time, their knowledge, their information, or their money.
Investigating Biden's on tape confession of corruption is not a campaign contribution.
Ukraine does not contribute to Trump's campaign by investigating crimes within their borders.
This is the argument you are making.
By Nausi 2019-10-05 18:06:48
The US actually has a collective treaty with Ukraine that establishes cooperative exchange on law enforcement.
executing this treaty does not amount to an illegal campaign contribution either, because Trump is literally enforcing the law by doing so.
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Ragnarok.Ozment
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Posts: 1116
By Ragnarok.Ozment 2019-10-05 18:23:40
Well now, if that is the case I guess Trump should be worried about those high crimes. According to the following government website, it is illegal to accept contributions from a foreign national "in connection with an election to any political office or in connection with any primary election, convention, or caucus held to select candidates for any political office."
Trump never accepted any money from them. Past that the burden is on the accuser to show that some non-monetary contribution was both requested and delivered, which btw was at the center of the Russian Collusion investigation.
There already was a text message where one official asked about that and the response from the staff was that there absolutely wasn't any quid pro quo happening.
I don't think monetary contributions are in question. The contribution requested from Trump was information. If this is headed into litigation, and it very well looks that way, an argument that the word 'contribution' is solely referred to as something monetary is going to be a very weak defense...especially considering its use in the English language. A person can contribute their time, their knowledge, their information, or their money.
Investigating Biden's on tape confession of corruption is not a campaign contribution.
Ukraine does not contribute to Trump's campaign by investigating crimes within their borders.
I agree, an investigation into Biden or his son is not a campaign contribution. The results of said investigation would be considered the illegal campaign contribution if used to discredit a political opponent of Trump.
By Viciouss 2019-10-05 18:25:21
The US actually has a collective treaty with Ukraine that establishes cooperative exchange on law enforcement.
executing this treaty does not amount to an illegal campaign contribution either, because Trump is literally enforcing the law by doing so.
This treaty has no relevance to the current situation. The Ukraine has never investigated Joe Biden at any point. Joe Biden did not commit any crimes within the Ukraine.
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By Viciouss 2019-10-05 18:26:55
Today the Trump tantrum was focused on impeaching Mitt Romney for being honest. Not possible btw.
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Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2019-10-05 19:08:58
I don't usually do politics but this is some crackhead level ***
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Garuda.Chanti
Server: Garuda
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11402
By Garuda.Chanti 2019-10-05 19:10:47
Today the Trump tantrum was focused on impeaching Mitt Romney for being honest. Not possible btw. Mittens is fairly honest for a republican. Slimeball businessman though. Singlehandedly destroyed the specialty steel industry in this country and a big reason why we started relying so heavily on China for steel.
By Nausi 2019-10-05 19:50:50
Well now, if that is the case I guess Trump should be worried about those high crimes. According to the following government website, it is illegal to accept contributions from a foreign national "in connection with an election to any political office or in connection with any primary election, convention, or caucus held to select candidates for any political office."
Trump never accepted any money from them. Past that the burden is on the accuser to show that some non-monetary contribution was both requested and delivered, which btw was at the center of the Russian Collusion investigation.
There already was a text message where one official asked about that and the response from the staff was that there absolutely wasn't any quid pro quo happening.
I don't think monetary contributions are in question. The contribution requested from Trump was information. If this is headed into litigation, and it very well looks that way, an argument that the word 'contribution' is solely referred to as something monetary is going to be a very weak defense...especially considering its use in the English language. A person can contribute their time, their knowledge, their information, or their money.
Investigating Biden's on tape confession of corruption is not a campaign contribution.
Ukraine does not contribute to Trump's campaign by investigating crimes within their borders.
I agree, an investigation into Biden or his son is not a campaign contribution. The results of said investigation would be considered the illegal campaign contribution if used to discredit a political opponent of Trump. That's a flat out justification for Biden being above the law.
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Ragnarok.Ozment
Server: Ragnarok
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Posts: 1116
By Ragnarok.Ozment 2019-10-05 20:04:24
Well now, if that is the case I guess Trump should be worried about those high crimes. According to the following government website, it is illegal to accept contributions from a foreign national "in connection with an election to any political office or in connection with any primary election, convention, or caucus held to select candidates for any political office."
Trump never accepted any money from them. Past that the burden is on the accuser to show that some non-monetary contribution was both requested and delivered, which btw was at the center of the Russian Collusion investigation.
There already was a text message where one official asked about that and the response from the staff was that there absolutely wasn't any quid pro quo happening.
I don't think monetary contributions are in question. The contribution requested from Trump was information. If this is headed into litigation, and it very well looks that way, an argument that the word 'contribution' is solely referred to as something monetary is going to be a very weak defense...especially considering its use in the English language. A person can contribute their time, their knowledge, their information, or their money.
Investigating Biden's on tape confession of corruption is not a campaign contribution.
Ukraine does not contribute to Trump's campaign by investigating crimes within their borders.
I agree, an investigation into Biden or his son is not a campaign contribution. The results of said investigation would be considered the illegal campaign contribution if used to discredit a political opponent of Trump. That's a flat out justification for Biden being above the law.
Not at all. If Biden has done anything illegal, then it is up to a US policing agency to investigate and take any necessary action against him. I'm not really a big fan of Biden, and if he has done something wrong then lock him up!
But rather than digressing down an entirely different topic, let's stay focused on the topic being discussed...Trump's attempt to have a foreign national contribute information on a political rival in order to sway the 2020 election.
By Nausi 2019-10-05 20:18:01
Well now, if that is the case I guess Trump should be worried about those high crimes. According to the following government website, it is illegal to accept contributions from a foreign national "in connection with an election to any political office or in connection with any primary election, convention, or caucus held to select candidates for any political office."
Trump never accepted any money from them. Past that the burden is on the accuser to show that some non-monetary contribution was both requested and delivered, which btw was at the center of the Russian Collusion investigation.
There already was a text message where one official asked about that and the response from the staff was that there absolutely wasn't any quid pro quo happening.
I don't think monetary contributions are in question. The contribution requested from Trump was information. If this is headed into litigation, and it very well looks that way, an argument that the word 'contribution' is solely referred to as something monetary is going to be a very weak defense...especially considering its use in the English language. A person can contribute their time, their knowledge, their information, or their money.
Investigating Biden's on tape confession of corruption is not a campaign contribution.
Ukraine does not contribute to Trump's campaign by investigating crimes within their borders.
I agree, an investigation into Biden or his son is not a campaign contribution. The results of said investigation would be considered the illegal campaign contribution if used to discredit a political opponent of Trump. That's a flat out justification for Biden being above the law.
Not at all. If Biden has done anything illegal, then it is up to a US policing agency to investigate and take any necessary action against him. I'm not really a big fan of Biden, and if he has done something wrong then lock him up!
But rather than digressing down an entirely different topic, let's stay focused on the topic being discussed...Trump's attempt to have a foreign national contribute information on a political rival in order to sway the 2020 election.
I agree lets stay on topic, Trumps enforcement of US law. If by doing that, it just happens that one of his campaign rivals gets knocked out of the race because of their own corruption, there is nothing illegal about that. It is in the nations best interest for him to enforce the law.
(your re-characterization of the narrative is obvious)
By Viciouss 2019-10-05 20:20:25
(My re-characterization of the narrative is obvious)
Uh, yep.
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Ragnarok.Ozment
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1116
By Ragnarok.Ozment 2019-10-05 20:36:07
Well now, if that is the case I guess Trump should be worried about those high crimes. According to the following government website, it is illegal to accept contributions from a foreign national "in connection with an election to any political office or in connection with any primary election, convention, or caucus held to select candidates for any political office."
Trump never accepted any money from them. Past that the burden is on the accuser to show that some non-monetary contribution was both requested and delivered, which btw was at the center of the Russian Collusion investigation.
There already was a text message where one official asked about that and the response from the staff was that there absolutely wasn't any quid pro quo happening.
I don't think monetary contributions are in question. The contribution requested from Trump was information. If this is headed into litigation, and it very well looks that way, an argument that the word 'contribution' is solely referred to as something monetary is going to be a very weak defense...especially considering its use in the English language. A person can contribute their time, their knowledge, their information, or their money.
Investigating Biden's on tape confession of corruption is not a campaign contribution.
Ukraine does not contribute to Trump's campaign by investigating crimes within their borders.
I agree, an investigation into Biden or his son is not a campaign contribution. The results of said investigation would be considered the illegal campaign contribution if used to discredit a political opponent of Trump. That's a flat out justification for Biden being above the law.
Not at all. If Biden has done anything illegal, then it is up to a US policing agency to investigate and take any necessary action against him. I'm not really a big fan of Biden, and if he has done something wrong then lock him up!
But rather than digressing down an entirely different topic, let's stay focused on the topic being discussed...Trump's attempt to have a foreign national contribute information on a political rival in order to sway the 2020 election.
I agree lets stay on topic, Trumps enforcement of US law. If by doing that, it just happens that one of his campaign rivals gets knocked out of the race because of their own corruption, there is nothing illegal about that. It is in the nations best interest for him to enforce the law.
Only Trump isn't enforcing the law, he is breaking it. If Trump wants to have Biden investigated, then he should go through the proper channels, specifically US investigative agencies that have America's best interest in mind. It is illegal to utilize the information obtained from foreign nationals, as it is not expected that they have America's best interest as their motive.
Bahamut.Ravael
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Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2019-10-05 22:30:21
It is illegal to utilize the information obtained from foreign nationals, as it is not expected that they have America's best interest as their motive.
So, the government's use of the Steele Dossier to obtain multiple FISA warrants against the Trump campaign is also against the law? Well, then let's not stop with impeaching Trump. Let's impeach the entire federal government!
By Viciouss 2019-10-05 22:37:09
It is illegal to utilize the information obtained from foreign nationals, as it is not expected that they have America's best interest as their motive.
So, the government's use of the Steele Dossier to obtain multiple FISA warrants against the Trump campaign is also against the law? Well, then let's not stop with impeaching Trump. Let's impeach the entire federal government!
lol, source? Did they release the FISA report and we just missed it?
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Asura.Saevel
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Posts: 9910
By Asura.Saevel 2019-10-06 00:31:45
Only Trump isn't enforcing the law, he is breaking it
Leftist alarm tripped.
Guys don't bother arguing with him, he's not entering into a good faith discussion.
Valefor.Endoq
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By Valefor.Endoq 2019-10-06 04:14:25
Meanwhile...
Ragnarok.Ozment
Server: Ragnarok
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Posts: 1116
By Ragnarok.Ozment 2019-10-06 07:32:57
Only Trump isn't enforcing the law, he is breaking it
Leftist alarm tripped.
Guys don't bother arguing with him, he's not entering into a good faith discussion.
None of my posts/points have been about any of the other posters here. Not sure why you need to make it personal rather than keeping the comments on the subject being discussed.
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By Nausi 2019-10-06 07:38:26
Only Trump isn't enforcing the law, he is breaking it
Leftist alarm tripped.
Guys don't bother arguing with him, he's not entering into a good faith discussion.
None of my posts/points have been about any of the other posters here. Not sure why you need to make it personal rather than keeping the comments on the subject being discussed. He isn't breaking the law, he's enforcing it. His request was to have Ukraine cooperate with Barr (the AG) who is conducting his own investigation.
By your own expectation he IS going through the proper channels.
We await your next goal post movement.
By Viciouss 2019-10-06 07:40:32
Only Trump isn't enforcing the law, he is breaking it
Leftist alarm tripped.
Guys don't bother arguing with him, he's not entering into a good faith discussion.
This is just typical Saevel/nausi behavior.
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Ragnarok.Ozment
Server: Ragnarok
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Posts: 1116
By Ragnarok.Ozment 2019-10-06 08:09:37
Only Trump isn't enforcing the law, he is breaking it
Leftist alarm tripped.
Guys don't bother arguing with him, he's not entering into a good faith discussion.
This is just typical Saevel/nausi behavior.
It is interesting actually, to see how quickly logic and reason can cause cause people to resort to denigrating other's comments.
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By fonewear 2019-10-06 08:15:16
Welcome to the thread, Oz. You need to first acquaint yourself with the number one rule of P&R, as seen below:
Once you have that committed to memory, you'll do just fine.
The beauty of this is I can make Vic is wrong pics with different armor and emotes etc.
By Nausi 2019-10-06 08:46:19
Only Trump isn't enforcing the law, he is breaking it
Leftist alarm tripped.
Guys don't bother arguing with him, he's not entering into a good faith discussion.
This is just typical Saevel/nausi behavior.
It is interesting actually, to see how quickly logic and reason can cause cause people to resort to denigrating other's comments. You aren't offering logic, you're offering sophistry.
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By Viciouss 2019-10-06 08:53:35
Trump's latest scapegoat attempt: Rick Perry, the invisible energy secretary. He will throw anyone under the bus, which we have known for a while.
Ragnarok.Ozment
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1116
By Ragnarok.Ozment 2019-10-06 09:41:13
Only Trump isn't enforcing the law, he is breaking it
Leftist alarm tripped.
Guys don't bother arguing with him, he's not entering into a good faith discussion.
This is just typical Saevel/nausi behavior.
It is interesting actually, to see how quickly logic and reason can cause cause people to resort to denigrating other's comments. You aren't offering logic, you're offering sophistry.
You are welcome to insult my posts all you want, but it does not strengthen your opinion on the subject, rather it weakens it. Curious...what is "goal post movement"? I've not heard this term before.
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Node 285
Yes, I'm still alive.
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