Chango VS Ukonvasara !!!

lol what do you want? a screenshot of my account? relax dude. strange arguement you are making. Again, what are those DA TA STP QA values?

Could say the same to you.

again. what are the DA TA QA and STP values on your bravura fighters roll set. All I need to know. If you dont know them right now that is fine. Just say you dont know.

And again

okay, so you dont know them.

Think whatever you want, you already have the answer printed out anyway.

:Breaks fourth Wall:
To the viewing audience, this is a classic trap by trolls when they start demanding you provide them something they already have.

At first the reaction is to just give them what they asked for, even if they already have it, because we (erroneously) think their acting in good faith and will come to the same conclusions we did. This is wrong, they have already made up their mind and have no intention of doing anything other then attacking you with the ammunition you just handed them. When things get to this point the worst thing we can possible do is to comply with whatever silly request they made. They will either have enough ammunition to use against you or keep demanding more things until they do.

Instead we must realize there is no more rational conversation happening and in fact one likely never happened in the first place. Either disengage (walk away) or just post funny gifs and memes since the real "discussion" is social dominance (I'm right your wrong / I'm better then you / ect..) and that can't happen when one person isn't taking things seriously. Trying social ***over the internet is stupid anyway.

:Back to regular programming:

Okay so then your set is

ItemSet 367135

if not, tell me what to change. you dont need to be so emotional about it lol.
That set will have the same DA, PDT and MDT 10 more TA and 3 more QA with about a 2.15 average attacks per attack round and a 4 hit build with 11 rostam/ sam/fighters. Meaning over 84% of the timeish you will take 2 attack rounds for TP.
ItemSet 367131

This set will have 31 more STP during TP phase and 10 more during ws giving it a 3 hit build during lucky rostam fighters/sam. it will have an average of 2 swings per attack round. Meaning you will TP on average a full attack round faster than bravura and then be able to WS with 500 more TP bonus than brav and upheaval will have the 10% boost to it. So better frequency on WS and a much higher WS average. This isnt even considering the lost DPS for using MT to get get AM up. plus not having to lose TP by switching weapons to get back to full DPS mode. THis set also allows for instant swaps while maintaining great TP. The damage mitigation is the same but the DPS is massively in favor of chango. Also 9 more crit hit rate.

After getting the hjarrandi pieces and testing against r15 bravura. The set above is leaps and bounds better than anything we could do with bravura including forgetting about DT and just going full tp/ DPS on bravura. CHango is just too powerful of a weapon compared to bravura. So yeah, i dont see any purpose for bravura that cant be done better with other options.
Edit**
tested r15 bravura in a regular TP sets against labrunda, lycurgos, montante, Raetic, shining one, ukon, conq (all max augs etc) in the above hybrid dt/TP set and had bravura losing to all of them. Would have done rag as well, but rag sucks and we didnt want to take it out of storage. It probably still beat bravura.

^ this

So playing around with ukon. I found a pretty good fight for testing its DPS. we did onchyphora in a full alliance and only kept track of DPS above 50%. Using monks roll and some SMN to mew it . you can actually completely prevent the mob from using any TP moves for the entire fight. CLosest thing we could come up with to a punching bag. only works when you dont SC at all though. Used a full alli so the mob would have more HP.

Sounds like you're being sincere, but this is a horrible fight to test DPS. I guess if you want to test which Resolution war is BiS and not mentally HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE, but you can't spam upheaval, you can't put up AM3 with Ukkos then start spamming upheaval. It doesn't make sense. Are you trying to have someone close your SC window every WS? That sounds painful and prone to error.

It's either WoC or Wave 3 bosses, those are the only good measures of DPS. WoC is not really that good because he's dead in 60 seconds, the 18 man version isn't so bad though because of the HP.

I think it is subjective for the answer, but in my experience: Anything where 'burst' damage exceeds, it seems like Aeonic wins (Apex, some Ambuscade, HTBF). But for fights that require sustained high damage, then Empy wins (Dyna-D, Omen, some ambuscade).

Not sure how many times it's been explained, the extra melee damage from Empy AM3 doesn't come close to making up the lower WS damage. R0 Chango already beat Ukon for DPS, R15 Chango just widens the gap to ridiculous amounts. Even Conq is a better DPS weapon then Ukon. WAR, like the other 2H jobs, is so heavily biased towards high powered WS's that anything that doesn't enhance those WS's is a bust. A good WAR can WS every 3~4 seconds, and those WS's will be in the 30~50K range (target dependent).

if you dont have the weapon dont talk, cause you dont have proof

In instances were white damage is considered, Uko is a great weapon to have. Uko Warriors play differently anyway. Comparing these two against each other is not logical, by applying the rotation setup of Chango for Uko you put it in a disadvantaged spot already.

I teamed up with Japanese WAR for V1 VD, and they were using Uko R15.
The white damage on this is ridiculously great (9-12k) procs, granted we only put AM3 up on and just melee to death the adds to prevent level up with Enthunder II on. They also had a +3 QA TP set with Hjarrandi Breastplate.

I was on DRG using Rhon (not R15) with +3 QA Set. and we both had Fighter's Roll Crooked 11, the fights ended in 5-7 min AVG.

Also, upheaval scales beautifully with TP... a good margin would be 2250+

You should not be using niche fights for data to back up whether a weapon is better than another in general. The JP also use R15 Ukon to zerg Iroha, but our chango war kill was much faster.

There's a reason all the spreadsheets use WoC or an apex mob as a starting point. No mechanics, no gimmicks, just raw damage. In that scenario, Ukon loses. Granted, by how much is drastically being exaggerated by Saevel, but a loss is a loss. And since there are more of those scenarios than there are gimmicky ***, Chango is of course the winner in general.

As stated in my post. You CANT sc on onchyphora. (sorta, you can sleep the adds and keep SC and rely on mew/monks roll to prevent doomvoid) The reason I said the first 50% i guess i need to explain. You can prevent onchyphora from using ANY of his gimicks and he will have MUCH more HP than WOC . After 50% he gains HP on spells so the parse doesnt work out at that point. WOC and wave three boss are actually horrific for parses. Particularly wave three boss. Upheaval > Upheaval doesnt make a SC on ukon so it works out really well. You can get like 8 minutes of just swinging on onchy with that set up.
To fix your concern is actually super easy. Use a 3k ukko's and then start your parse and end the parse when certain buffs fall off. You dont actually have to do a complete fight fight to get a good parse. I wold like to know why you think you cant put up AMIII. Also it has been shown on ukon that holding TP to higher amounts yielded a better result in DPS with the white damage build. So now that all of your concerns about the onchy fight as a parse have been dismissed. What concerns do you have?
Please read the posts completely before responding.You either didnt read my post or dont know how onchy works. Your concerns were actually already taken care of in the original post.

Also, the war spreadsheets are all wrong. I also beleive the war sim hasnt been completed so you cant use that either.

Our current ranking of GA DPS is (all r15) Chango > Conq > Labruanda (extra swing path) = lycurgos > ukon >>>>>>>>>> bravura. Ukon does well on wave three for an interesting reason. It does less damage so you dont rip hate off the tank and get debuffed/dead as much. On chango we usually rip hate off pretty regularly and are forced to play much more conservatively or be dead. Can fix this by spamming King's Justice on chango instead of upheaval . easy fix.

Do i consider ukon a bad weapon? no, it is actually pretty solid. But better options exist.

I don't recall saying one is better that the other, there was no comparison to begin with because I stated quite clearly that comparing them in the first place is a flawed logic. Both weapons operate differently.

Did you honestly read what was written?


Also WoC is a terrible example to use in "spreadsheet"
What you need is a simulation. Again, its not logical to compare the two anyway.

So there we have it folks, Ukon is "good" when you remove the ability to weapon skill. Lets have that sink in for a second.

When we first started clearing Dyna, there was a dude in a shell that was clearing before us with R15 Conqueror already and he rocked it without shame. I think he bounced but at some point you have to respect someone for getting so far without even looking up basic info or just not giving two shits and playing the job the way he wants. So wherever you are dude, cheers. Keep on rockin that blue glow on WAR.

WAR is such a powerful and versatile job that it can do well murdering pixels with clubs. Whenever we discuss differences between weapons here, it's all relative to the awesomeness that's already present. Someone wanting to use Ukon isn't going to cause their team to wipe or have any realistic impact on the outcome of the fight.

Is this thread still going?

I thought we all agreed that if you think Ukon is better than Chango, go play BRD.

Don't have a r15 ukon or r15 conq but can't see ukon being better than r15 chango cuz of Ukko's and can't see conq being better because just not as good. Maybe some value in KJ atleast, I'd rather r15 a conq than an ukon just for the utility of the SC properties that you'll run into (the only reason you'd use a conq).

r15 chango is by far the best weapon warrior has access to, but it's not the best weapon in every single situation; whether it be the type of mob or ambu boss type fight where you have to blend into a different skillchain.

One of the things that makes r15 chango the best weap is the fact that it skillchains with savage blade and torcleaver; so basically COR WAR DRK, your main DPS in the game, all making light/radiance.

Not gonna say WAR is gimp without a r15 chango but a r15 chango WAR is head and shoulders above someone who's not. It's the difference in being viable for the hardest end game content vs. not.

Ambu this month -- great example. It's stupid easy and if you're a r15 chango WAR, you are essentially the choice of DD for this month. Mobs die in one skillchain on VD with the exception of the paladins/thief/maybe WHM.

I need r25 Chango for Bubbly Bernie.

Got Dark Matter Augment on Valorous Hose: Acc +18, Att +18, Double ATT 3%, WSD 5%. Would this be equivalent to or better than VIT 10 and WSD 5% for Upheaval?

Thanks.

at this time and age, is R15 Chango DPS gonna be higher than R15 Ukko?

or just stick to naegling cos this is just too OP.....

Yes, by quite a bit. Chango will also out DPS naegling by quite a bit.