Chango VS Ukonvasara !!!

It's pretty simple really. You dont do parses to make parses when comparing weapons but to check dps.

While doing parse during wave3 is bad, because of lag etc. you still want to know what weapon is best there, because thats actually a limited time event and DPS is important there. So you can simulate that scenario for example on Neak and check which weapon would be best to use in longer events, when you have normal cycles of buffs up and down. So you should either make enough Neaks to make whole cycle of Warcry up and down or just do some with warcry up then warcry down and do simple math of 0.8 * DPS without warcry + 0.2 * DPS with warcry (or 0.76 and 0.24 with merits), to simulate dps for 5 minute cycle (or 4min:10sec with merits).

In normal cycle you would also use Blood rage after Warcry, which would buff Ukon a lot vs Chango. It's even possible that maybe optimal scenario would be to use one weapon with Warcry, other weapon with Blood rage and other weapon for both down.


Because that would be stupid. With climactic your DPS is totally skewed towards WS and Rudra. Twashtar/Cento would destroy everything in 30 sec Neak fight with Climacitic up (your DNC was losing probably only because he was using steps and samba for you and that JA delay is huge loss in such a short fight I also bet he wasn't using R15Twashtar/Cento). Also your conclusion after using Climactic for every Neak (especialy with Warcry up too) would be that DNC has like 15000 DPS and Twashtar is by far the best dagger. This would have no sense in normal scenario when you fight for longer time and have Climactic up for maybe 10-20% of all WSs.

So I'm sorry, but your testing is only valid for specific Escha scenario and is totally unrealistic in zones without temps and in longer events.

SO you are okay with pre fight TP to get AMIII up but not using a super revit? I am more than a little confused with this. And I mean... it was stated 7 times in this thread that it was neak/yakshi for everything. Even without warcry, chango still won. Fight was just too short. If you want to do you simulation of a longer fight by spamming neak without prebuffing and doing everything during the fight, okay... i guess. Then you need to simulate being bound and waiting on an erase between fights and engaging a mob AS it dies from the party etc etc etc. So I would say Neak is a GIGANTICALLY terrible simulation for wave three trash floors AND the bosses.
Not really any fights that last longer than a minute. So you can basically guarantee 100% warcry. The only exceptions i have had is onchyphora and zerde (never been able to zerde him on war) Literally everything else died within 1 minute in escha. Unity? 30 second fights with high buff. Ambu? no prebuffing and ukon falls massively behind. THe most testing I have done is on neak/yakshi. but not the only stuff I have done with. USually the dynamis wave 2 boss dies in a little over a minute. Literally the only content i could POSSIBLY see ukon winning is in wave three boss. 5 minute cycle? the fight just doesnt really exist.


Name the scenario and the content outside of wave three and lets test it. What is this longer event? What is this really durable mob that doesnt ruin the parse? What is this mob that allows you to compare UKON and CHANGO together without any big issues. Name the NM and explain why it would be good and lets go do it. I dont really care what a spread sheet says UNLESS you can duplicate it in game.

Against an imaginary mob with infinite HP that does zero debuffs that allows you to cap everything and swings at you at a consistent rate (retaliation, which still isnt calculated well, retal favors WS builds. AMIII and MA dont affect it) then sure ukon could be everything we want it to be. that fight doesnt exist. Nothing even comes close to duplicating it.

Ambu this month chango was king by a huge amount. As far as I can tell, in ALL of escha, chango wins with a couple excetpions. Most notably teles because it absorbs light SC. Shining one wins in that fight. Ambu? maybe the qiqirin month because that took forever. And maybe the qutrub month. the other 10 chango wins. Is ukon capable of winning? yeah. in like 3% of the content.

In order for UKON to be better than CHANGO. Ukon needs to beat the DPS of chango on the MAJORITY of content currently being played. At this time it doesnt even come close.

Simple in theory, difficult in actuality. Debuffs, GEO being out of position. Reapplying buffs when they wear. Most war will have a MS for that fight. Usually have 2-4 cors in a group. Have the chance of resetting MS multiple times. Mob just turning on you and killing you when you pull hate. You really should be in a hybrid set on the wave three boss as well(destroys ukons DPS). Adds popping. All of which can ruin the accuracy of a parse. THe wave three bosses do ALL of those things. It is really just a TERRIBLE fight for ANY type of parse beyond max WS dmg potential. Even with max WSD potential, the mob has wierd mechanics where your WSD will spike massively.

I am ok with prebuffing with TP because I tho we try to simulate dps for those weapons in longer fights and in longer fights/events. To simulate it better you should probably start at 0 tp but with am3 up, then try to get to 3000 tp when am3 is about to go down and continue.

You dont need to do Neak and Yakshi using all that Escha provides and you can just simulate things that way. You dont need to do parse in dynamis to try to find best setup for dynamis. You can just simulate dynamis enviroment and for example do 6+ Neaks in a row without any temps.

Look at mnk for example. With Impetus up mnk is top dps job. But you cant act like Impetus being a full time thing. Same for Last Resort on DRK tho here downtime is lower.

Ofc you can do test like yours but you should note that you full time short time buffs, especially that full timing warcry means no blood rage, which is as impactful for Ukon as Warcry for Chango.

Spaitin we are not arguing "best weapon for neak" nor even "best weapon for most endgame content".

Both me and SimonSes just wanted to know if real parse dps matches theorycraft dps, and if spreadsheet really inflate white dmg that much. We just want information, Why is this so difficult?

If Neak dies too fast just do a 1 min neak parse with warcry for 10 times. Then 1 min neak parse without warcry 10 times. Then another neak parse with BR up 10 times. Then multiple dps x JA up/down duration, divided by 180 sec and you get the avg dps in a 3 min fight.

Or just list the dps with each weapon individually with each ja up/down then we will see how they perform when these JA are used.

And yes, testing dps with 100% warcry uptime without even saying it in your post devalue the data obtained from the test. We will just read the data and wonder what other data are being left out.

Hence I said post a video at start. We don't even know if information can be used because we don't know how data are obtained.

We did that, chango won. Having said that,TERRIBLE simulation for wave three. What about bind and gravity to slow your fights down. What about engaging a mob and before you can WS, it dies. WHat about the mob running around. THere are just too many variables not represented by neak. Waiting for neak repops allows for ALOT of time between fights that you dont have on wave three when you are on a statue or on the volte mobs.

Sounds like your first question should be if war used the other buffs that war has access to.

If you are saying can ukon hit that 10-11k DPS that it theoretically can? not against neak in my experience. Cant rember exactly, but i think absolutely ideal was low 9k. it sorta can against yakshi (takes extra slashing). Without warcry neak is still super short.

Completely irrelevant for the purpose of the test.

It really sounds like you cant have your opinion changed in ANY regard. I would suggest making the weapon and getting a group to do the tests that satisfy you. I wouldnt really worry about it until you do that. You dont really have any contribution to the discussion so far. You are posting numbers and wondering if the IN GAME RESULTS can duplicate that. So what you are after is in game results. The theory crafting had it about even with chango. By stating that chango is beating it, i think it would be pretty clear what that indicates. By stating that lycurgos is beating it.....

Ive sthis testing was awhile ago and we dont have the info saved. we just made a tier for dmg spams. Chango > Conq > Lycurgos > Ukon. Theorycraft has chango and ukon on par we eachother. As far as neak/yakshi goes. not even close. As far as some imaginary NM that has infiniute HP and no debuffs, Maybe. Starting at 0 TP on this months ambu. chango is hitting extremely radical numbers. DPS for the run is anywhere between 8-11k (retaliation is pretty nutz against that mob). so i dont find it as a good generic test. Ukon capped out around 6k on this months ambu. but i only had 4 runs with it. Fight is just too short and is a really bad fight for Ukon.

Earlier in the thread, other people have stated they have access to both and that chango beats it. So obviously testimonials are not good enough for you. Since that is the best this thread has been able to offer, I would suggest going and doing it yourself. Beggars cant be choosers.

I'm not insisting certain opinion. I just ask for information. And some what annoyed when people provide information then left out very very important information (like warcry being up 100% of time) completely.

This is an example of a parse test result post when people had mnk dps debate on forum.




All the sets are posted, target are posted, dps data are posted and buffs/JA are mentioned. Data like this may not prove X job > Y job 100% but at least it's a base that we can build opinions on.

Either way, you are right. I don't have right to ask others to do all the work since it can take some time. So I'm just going to leave it there and do it with SimonSes once he finishes all sets.

I appreciate your work anyways but I'd still say there isn't enough data to prove anything because reasons above.

I know what it is, and it was stated at the FIRST post that i didnt have it . So idk what you point was for bringing that up. Again, sounds like you need to go test it.

There's absolutely no way this is true. Ninja has a huge advantage in dealing with single-target hits, 3 different Utsusemi spells, tons more shadows. Warrior... has nothing like that.

Ninja can be beaten out in dps on Qutrubs, especially by Empy MNK (kicked my NIN alt's *** last Qutrub), but there is no safer and more consistent job on that Ambuscade.

Yeah, that was a REALLY weird statement. War was surviving better than jobs like nin and mnk? On qutrub month the mob didnt do hardly any dmg so counterstance was fine. mnk/nin with counterstance was really survivable that month. Concerned about their in game testing.

People need to read what's written, not what they think that's being written.

I said "Our WAR died less often than other DD that I pt with in that month".

Not "WAR has better survivability than rest of the DD".

1st sentence is sharing experience and 2nd one was making a statement. I'm not sure how people read it wrong over and over. Did I use incorrect sentence structure for that particular sentence?

Ukon has higher delay than 1h weapon. With how hate is capped NM will bounce to lower delay weapon DD more often. There really isn't nothing weird that h2/ranged DD ended up dying less often if hate is on NIN majority of time. In our setup NIN or MNK was the "main tank" because they naturally get most hate, while being able to dps without having to recast shadows that often.

And yet people decided to read it wrong and use this one minor comment as the main reason to win an internet argument that shouldnt even be an argument to begin with.

This is where you use your words and ask questions.
And if you actually were reading the posts, you would know that I only stated that for farsha vs ukon. I also stated previously that other buffs were used for other weapons.

Is this an R15 Chango vs. R15 Ukon ONLY debate?

Because In my experience, using both, in short fights, such as WoC or Neak, Chango tends to nudge out Ukon, unless the Ukon user is Tozi...

But in longer events, such as Dyna D, Ukon consistently beats all Chango WARs...and these are good WARs, not some scrubs with an Aeonic. I've even led other R15 Chango WARs on parse with my non-R15 Ukon in Dyna D.

This game needs striking dummies soooo much.

Agree intensely. Although, war would need one that swings back at you.

And guess how would discussion turn into.

Tester: Hey I just tested the weapon, result is A > B > C.

Reader: what set did you use? Whats the dps?

Tester: Heres my set, and my dps is X.

Reader: the number seems off, what buffs did you use?

Tester: Heres my buffs.

Reader: the number is still weird, howd you use JA?

Tester: I use JA Y at start and keep it up entire time.

Yeah, 7 posts back and forth just to get the basic info even though every info can be shares in 1 post like the example I shared, while reader still have to play the guessing game trying to figure out why it isnt working properly by asking 10000 questions.

Isnt it easier to create a test that get the correct result from one run?

I dont know why Im arguing this anyways, lol. I think you are just pissed that people comment about your test result so you feel like fighting back.

That actually seems like a pretty easy and pretty reasonable way of making sure we were all on the same page. Assuming I am pissed is strange. And again, warcry wasnt up 100% of the time. Was stated multiple times. Just fasrsha vs ukon.

"numbers seem odd, did you use warcry for those fights?"

"Yeah I did".

What seems hard about that?

Not sure if trolling, we will be on the same page to begin with if you post your dps data and JA/buff used in your 1st post.


Its not readers responsibility to verify the number for a test.

well since that list of info you asked for was NEVER posted. then yeah.... questions.... use them. I really dont understand what issues you are having that have not already been addressed.

Lol, so you basically just want all the information given to you?
Are you saying you are just a reader? you have no desire to put ANY effort into checking the numbers? Really? Why are you even responding? Are you assuming that the tester put the numbers up and was 100% accurate and complete in what they presented? I mean... too much to have you look over the presented info? Really? Sure i guess it isnt their responsibility. But they would have to be pretty darn stupid not to do it.

IN that case, simon said ukon should be around 10k+. I accept that then, not gonna go in any deeper. Dnc thread has people mathing out evis at 27k average with ideal buffs. Nevermind the fact it is closer to 32k. I trust them, not my responsibility to double check. evis does 27k. They just realized the sam DPS was inflated a bit, a reader discovered that.

You are missing the point, you are trying to prove something to the reader, but leave out informations that will change the result greatly. When you get caught about that people will not trust the result even if you add the info later. Its really common sense that applies irl too.

And yeah Im the reader to your posts, not sure why do you feel like arguing THAT too.

Why are you assuming that it is proof? if i was providing proff i would post video and in depth explanations and details. I simply stated the test i did and a summarized version of my results. I didnt even post DPS thresholds on the neak/yakshi spam. Just what weapons were winning in order.
Yeah, accidental omissions happen all the time. It is a basic fact of humans, happens. I assumed, my bad. TJust go

" hmm that seems odd, didnt see you mention this, was it used? "

"Oh yeah, it was. My mistake man, humans tend to do that sometimes."

Blood rage and warcry were both used on different fights. It was hours of killing. You havnt really asked any good questions. You seem to be reading one post wrong and assume that I did that 100% warcry for EVERY SINGLE FIGHT. It was mentioned in previous posts that was not the case. So you arent even reading it entirely.

I suggest you go and test it yourself. Clearly it isnt enough for you. I applaud that, checking for yourself is probably something FFXI is missing atm. Now go do it.

Yeah, just drop it already. Not sure how this goes on and on and on and not one new info are added to the discussion.

This is honestly not surprising, part of what makes Chango awesome is the constant Lights from Upheaval, plus the bonus to skillchain damage from Aeonic AM - and it's really common to have AM2 from the upper part of 2ktp, too, because TP overflow and Retaliation. SC damage is a good 20-30% of most of my parses, sometimes getting to an even 50% with direct damage when I manage to always be the one closing.
When you can't leverage that, i.e. when fighting tons of weaker mobs, spike damage tends to win, and Empy AM provides plenty of that. Playing against Upheaval in that scenario is also the fact that it's 4-7 hits (averaging 5ish?), and often stuff dies at the first two, reducing damage contribution significantly in a full-run parse. Things change if you only parse bosses.

I'm permalocked on WHM in divergence, but the times I got to go as WAR for clears, Fencer Savage Blade spam was consistently beating all other options (pre-Naegling, I was holding a Reikiko), due to spike damage and added sturdiness from the shield.

Anyway, I was reforging some Boii and just remembered that Restraint is a thing... it should take 24 melee rounds to cap out Restraint bonus with Ukon, which at capped haste is ~42 seconds or so between each WS (unless I severely misunderstand Restraint, which is not unlikely). If you tp in empy hands it's 11 melee rounds/~20s and 1% more chance of Empy set bonus proc (basically 1% more white damage total per swing), and it's less of a silly idea than it might look like if 1) you have Fighter's roll 2) you can afford the loss of accuracy and other stats. But then again, it's a lot of ifs and gearswap toggles and counting melee swings, whereas Chango is more chop chop chop u ded lol.


Damn that would be nice. But real scenarios do vary too much, I'm afraid striking dummies would only increase the "this build or bust" mentality, without any real reflection in actual performance.

Also stop arguing with Afania, you're only bloating the thread with rhetorics and "no u said", we were having a decent discussion.

Why are you responding? If you are willing to provide ANY info, i would like to hear it. You just havnt done that yet.

a decent discussion? on this board?