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February 2019 Version Update
 Ramuh.Austar
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10481
By Ramuh.Austar 2019-02-08 19:17:08
That's not quite correct, at least not for dual wielding a 1 hit weaponskill like rudra's storm.
It's the first two hits of a WS regardless of where those hits come from. The sequence of hits is all main hand hits, then all off hand hits. This is visible in TP return when a mob runs out of HP after the main hand hits but before the off hand hits. I even just said this.
Dual Wielding has absolutely nothing to do with WS damage calculations, it's just a bonus hit. The first two hits of a WS can proc a MA calc, the off hand hit is after all the main hand hits.
So take Evisceration
Main Hit 1 <MA Roll>
Main Hit 2 <MA Roll>
Main Hit 3
Main Hit 4
Main Hit 5
Off Hit 1
Both MA rolls were on the main hand.
Now take Rudras
Main Hit 1 <MA Roll>
Off Hit 1 <MA Roll>
This would be Savage Blade
Main Hit 1 <MA Roll>
Main Hit 2 <MA Roll>
Off Hit 1
And since Decimation is what we're talking about
Main Hit 1 <MA Roll>
Main Hit 2 <MA Roll>
Main Hit 3
Off Hit 1
I'm pretty certain, too, that DW procs x1 MultiAttack on the main hand and x1 MultiAttack on the off-hand.
Nope it's the first two hits of any WS period, off hand is just added as a bonus hit near the end. It doesn't matter if you WS with your main, with your off or even with your feet. Yes MA procs can happen when you use your feet for the WS. it definitely checks main and offhand first swings before any extra hits, natural or from a proc. this is easy to test with a multi hit ws that kills on the main and offhand hit and check your TP value.
you also get MA checks once per weapon.
capped my ratio with a bronze knife / odium, i used viper bite to assure this and the only MA i equipped was DA.
I have a value of 104 + 234 DEX. i have at least capped fstr on my bronze dagger vs zeid in escha sky, so at least 8 on odium, possibly more. but, assuming only 8 on odium, my lowest range of values are 1207 ~ 1267 for main hand and 1583 ~ 1662 for odium. I wsed until i got a three hit ws and a value out of an expected range of MA only on main. I got a value of 4557, which is two odiums and one bronze knife swing, which is above two max rolls bronze and one max roll odium.
By soralin 2019-02-08 19:24:00
New goal: 9% Quadruple Attack bard. Gonna live that dream and you cant stop me.
Wallet might stop me though. Its always the wallet.
[+]
By SimonSes 2019-02-08 19:47:02
So Saevel, looks like I way right after all?
Offhand hit is 2nd hit even on multihit WS. Like Austar said, Tp return is enough evidence for that. If you WS with something like Evisceration while dual wielding and kill target with first 2 hits of the WS, you get 2x full tp return instead of full + 10 (ofc Im ignoring STP with that number).
 Phoenix.Capuchin
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3607
By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-02-08 20:53:50
Quote: Gonna be really something when they get upgraded to the last stage...
I smell another rema upgrade in 5-9 months
I had the same thought. The stage 4 is already shockingly good, and when the stage 5 comes out they're going to be scary similar to full REMA. It feels kinda wrong for a weapon you can get in a couple hours to match up so well with one that takes most people over half a year of dedicated grinding to finish. I'm glad they're really strong though and at this point in the game a catchup weapon like this is necessary to help people who are new to a specific job stay current. But I wouldn't be surprised at all if they bump REMA up another peg. My guess is they'll do it at roughly the same time they release empyrean +2 and 3. That'll give us plenty to keep occupied with for quite some time.
Aren’t augment tables programmed to be capable of going to r30?
Could totally see them making detritus a more common drop/dropped in new content, bumping up the augs to rank 30, and making that the REMA adjustment. Perhaps alongside Empy +2/+3 gear, like Melphina said.
I also kinda dig the fact that for most of these weapons, choice of WS comes down to which weapon you use. Relic, Mythic, Empy, and now Quested WS all have specific weapons enhancing their associated WS. Gives a lot of jobs legit reasons to use different weapon depending on situation, or favor a particular WS dependent on which ultimate weapon you use (e.g., for NIN with Kannagi, Hi is usually best choice purely looking at WS damage, but on any other weapon that is not true).
[+]
Asura.Saevel
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9916
By Asura.Saevel 2019-02-08 21:12:18
That's not quite correct, at least not for dual wielding a 1 hit weaponskill like rudra's storm.
It's the first two hits of a WS regardless of where those hits come from. The sequence of hits is all main hand hits, then all off hand hits. This is visible in TP return when a mob runs out of HP after the main hand hits but before the off hand hits. I even just said this.
Dual Wielding has absolutely nothing to do with WS damage calculations, it's just a bonus hit. The first two hits of a WS can proc a MA calc, the off hand hit is after all the main hand hits.
So take Evisceration
Main Hit 1 <MA Roll>
Main Hit 2 <MA Roll>
Main Hit 3
Main Hit 4
Main Hit 5
Off Hit 1
Both MA rolls were on the main hand.
Now take Rudras
Main Hit 1 <MA Roll>
Off Hit 1 <MA Roll>
This would be Savage Blade
Main Hit 1 <MA Roll>
Main Hit 2 <MA Roll>
Off Hit 1
And since Decimation is what we're talking about
Main Hit 1 <MA Roll>
Main Hit 2 <MA Roll>
Main Hit 3
Off Hit 1
I'm pretty certain, too, that DW procs x1 MultiAttack on the main hand and x1 MultiAttack on the off-hand.
Nope it's the first two hits of any WS period, off hand is just added as a bonus hit near the end. It doesn't matter if you WS with your main, with your off or even with your feet. Yes MA procs can happen when you use your feet for the WS. it definitely checks main and offhand first swings before any extra hits, natural or from a proc. this is easy to test with a multi hit ws that kills on the main and offhand hit and check your TP value.
you also get MA checks once per weapon.
capped my ratio with a bronze knife / odium, i used viper bite to assure this and the only MA i equipped was DA.
I have a value of 104 + 234 DEX. i have at least capped fstr on my bronze dagger vs zeid in escha sky, so at least 8 on odium, possibly more. but, assuming only 8 on odium, my lowest range of values are 1207 ~ 1267 for main hand and 1583 ~ 1662 for odium. I wsed until i got a three hit ws and a value out of an expected range of MA only on main. I got a value of 4557, which is two odiums and one bronze knife swing, which is above two max rolls bronze and one max roll odium.
Was gonna do this later on, thanks. Now we can link wiki to it and call it a day.
So its
Main Hit 1
Off Hit 1
Main Hit 2/3/4/ect.
Ramuh.Austar
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10481
By Ramuh.Austar 2019-02-08 21:15:24
main hit
off hit
natural hits with main hand
ma check with main hand
ma check with offhand
8 hit cap also appears to check in that order, so if you get a TA on offhand on dancing edge and none on main, you'd do
main hand (apply wsd)
off hand
main
main
main
main
off hand
off hand
Asura.Saevel
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9916
By Asura.Saevel 2019-02-08 22:04:07
Oh I see now, it's adding any MA checks to the very end after processing all the regular hits.
By SimonSes 2019-02-09 02:14:03
Nope it's the first two hits of any WS period, off hand is just added as a bonus hit near the end. It doesn't matter if you WS with your main, with your off or even with your feet. Yes MA procs can happen when you use your feet for the WS.
You sound confident af here and tell that as ultimate truth
Was gonna do this later on, thanks. Now we can link wiki to it and call it a day.
So its
Main Hit 1
Off Hit 1
Main Hit 2/3/4/ect.
So you was gonna check something that you was so confident it works like you think. such bs..
Have you ever admitted at least once that you was totally wrong?
I'm still waiting for proofs that Liberator with AM3 doesnt have much higher WS frequency than Caladbolg.
[+]
By Vishwambhari 2019-02-09 03:40:25
are we gonna act like RNG hadn't just got savage blade (and yes, RNG has access to tp bonus gun too)? Although i'd probably stick to evisceration right now.
[+]
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3753
By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2019-02-09 07:56:17
I also kinda dig the fact that for most of these weapons, choice of WS comes down to which weapon you use. Relic, Mythic, Empy, and now Quested WS all have specific weapons enhancing their associated WS. Gives a lot of jobs legit reasons to use different weapon depending on situation, or favor a particular WS dependent on which ultimate weapon you use (e.g., for NIN with Kannagi, Hi is usually best choice purely looking at WS damage, but on any other weapon that is not true).
couldn't agree more. On RNG and COR these days I'm swapping Ranged weapons left and right, often in the same event. Going full magical damage? Death Penalty or Gastra. Full physical and aeonic friends to play with? Fomalhaut all day. Can't really commit to either but don't want to gimp yourself? Whip out that Armageddon and be ready for it all. Its justifying the completion-ist, and that's just dandy in my book
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 130
By Sylph.Banhammer 2019-02-09 09:05:46
The Bow is really good for debuffs.
 Asura.Sechs
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10102
By Asura.Sechs 2019-02-09 10:06:38
New goal: 9% Quadruple Attack bard. Can reach 8% quite easily without relying on crazy Chironic DM augments.
You're gonna lose Reiki Yotai in the belt slot though, which is quite vital in a DW setup.
Can compensate in the Cape but... I dunno if that's gonna be viable in terms of higher DPS.
It has to be said though that, as sexy as QA is, it's highly devaluated by AM3 on Carnwenhan.
At Rank15 Carnwenhan is better than Aeneas. It's better even if you don't rely exclusively on AM3 management actually, which kinda surprised me a lot.
To the point I'm still a bit skeptic and I'm thinking there might be an error somewhere in the spreadsheet, seems too good to be true... but 5/5 Relic, Neck+2 and the additional WSD to Mordant Rime really do a lot in terms of making Carn builds much better than they were before.
(previously Carn was better than Aeneas only with AM3, but keeping AM3 up was more often than not a DPS lot, so all in all it wasn't worth it).
I've never tested R15 Twashtar on BRD, not sure how it compares to Aeneas and Carn. Supposing it does good, QA would be awesome for such a build.
The Ambuscade Dagger, come next and last upgrade, might be surprisingly good as well, considering Evisceration was a really nice WS to begin with, even before the WSD increase.
Quote: Wallet might stop me though. Its always the wallet. As I mentioned before, 8% QA doesn't require any crazy gil in random augments.
By Afania 2019-02-09 12:05:01
are we gonna act like RNG hadn't just got savage blade (and yes, RNG has access to tp bonus gun too)? Although i'd probably stick to evisceration right now.
Inc armies of RNG with melee builds so they get invite to melee pt ;)
Asura.Frod
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1204
By Asura.Frod 2019-02-09 19:29:39
SE must be desperate if they are just giving everybody all the toys to play with.
By Draylo 2019-02-09 19:43:48
Remember those Abyssea weapons that gave you relic WS, they gonna do that next maybe lol.
By huttburt<3 2019-02-09 20:54:53
my butthurts
By fonewear 2019-02-09 20:58:10
Name checks out I'll allow it.
[+]
By huttburt<3 2019-02-09 21:06:59
Name checks out I'll allow it.
Thanks.
Lakshmi.Buukki
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-02-09 22:51:40
Is there any real advantage to RNG using Savage Blade vs just a Corsair using the same build with rolls?
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2019-02-09 22:54:26
I think they would honestly be identical for the most part.
Just a swap of body/feet WSD for head/legs WSD
D in skill... though
Axe with decimation might be the better melee option, or that dagger nomnom, wish that thing existed when I mastered ranger QQ
By Afania 2019-02-09 23:04:32
Is there any real advantage to RNG using Savage Blade vs just a Corsair using the same build with rolls?
1)TH .-.
2)People get to play rng more often
3)Shadowbind for oh ***moment
That's what I can think of atm.
Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1418
By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2019-02-09 23:49:05
I tested Kaja Axe out.
It is easily makes Decimation the best physical Axe Weaponskill.
It pulls it just a step ahead of Mistral axe and Calamity.
However, it is clearly a step ahead.
I had just finished making a fernagu for offhand tp bonus a few weeks ago. this doesn't need the extra tp, you spam Decimation at 1k and do better damage than I could with Calamity at 3k. and its fusion like mistral axe. if you have good enough acc and multi attack, it should be rather consistent as well. oh, and I'm not actually using any QA or TA in my set.
I'm wondering what best gear would be for this. I didn't even have a ws set for decimation before. I swapped in my ruinator set with a few minor changes.
so I'm pretty much using argosy set, and multihit accessories.
really makes me want to improve my multihit sets for bst. I opted for stp to go w/ my mythic aftermath instead...
By geigei 2019-02-10 03:40:47
By SimonSes 2019-02-11 06:56:27
It has to be said though that, as sexy as QA is, it's highly devaluated by AM3 on Carnwenhan.
Why tho?
QA will proc before AM3. Personally I think, that stacking DA for jobs with mythics, sucks. But stacking QA or TA does not, because if you proc QA or TA it's better or same as best result from AM3, so it's beneficial.
Getting DA before AM3 tho, lower the chance of getting triple attack from AM3 instead.
So imo QA works very well with AM3.
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2011
By Phoenix.Dabackpack 2019-02-11 07:14:39
It has to be said though that, as sexy as QA is, it's highly devaluated by AM3 on Carnwenhan.
Why tho?
QA will proc before AM3. Personally I think, that stacking DA for jobs with mythics, sucks. But stacking QA or TA does not, because if you proc QA or TA it's better or same as best result from AM3, so it's beneficial.
Getting DA before AM3 tho, lower the chance of getting triple attack from AM3 instead.
So imo QA works very well with AM3.
You're not wrong, but QA is still devalued by mythic AM3 (in general).
Your hits/second on AM3 is higher than with another weapon, so the QA gives you a smaller delta on the hits/second ratio than without.
Using a simple example, pretend your expected hits per second without AM3 and without QA is NAM = 1 hit/second. With AM3, pretend AM = 2 hits/second.
With QA+1, Q-NAM becomes 1.03 hit/second, Q-AM becomes 2.03 hit/second.
Compare the ratios:
Q-NAM / NAM = 1.03/1 = 1.03
Q-AM / AM = 2.03/2 = 1.015
1.03 > 1.015
This was just an example. The relationship is monotonic for all values of Q, AM > NAM. (The equations I used are slightly off since I don't include the OAT procs that are nullified by QA, but it's just to make this easier to convey.)
So QA benefits you less on Aftermath per QA than without QA. Not that QA is a bad choice! We're just looking at before/after hit/second improvements.
By SimonSes 2019-02-11 07:25:18
Yeah I agree. Let's not forget about offhand too. If you melee, you usually dual wield on BRD those days and offhand doesn't benefit from AM3.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 94
By Asura.Bayonette 2019-02-11 09:21:50
Is there any real advantage to RNG using Savage Blade vs just a Corsair using the same build with rolls?
RNG has B- in Axe, and a D in sword. Maybe a Kaja axe build with magian gun could be fun.
Asura.Saevel
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9916
By Asura.Saevel 2019-02-11 09:46:47
Mistral Axe is almost as good as SB, Decimation doesn't gain from TP bonus.
Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1418
By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2019-02-11 10:58:50
Is there any real advantage to RNG using Savage Blade vs just a Corsair using the same build with rolls?
RNG has B- in Axe, and a D in sword. Maybe a Kaja axe build with magian gun could be fun.
Pretty Sure Rng using Kaja Axe for Decimation will be better than Rng using Kaja Sword for Savaga Blade.
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2019-02-25 02:12:22
ooOoOoOoOOo next ambuscade weapons update makes them glowy, how original!
The dagger better get lightning like Coruscanti.
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