String Theory: A Puppetmaster's Guide *NEW*

Not to mention a tanking focused mythic. I wanted to brought SAM from the start even in my innitial comment about mainly BLU and DRK under Rua video, but it was a shitstorm even without adding a SAM..

BRD/BLU

Can keep self haste capped, MP regeneration, enmity song, and defense songs! What other job can do such things? BRD tank new meta go!

I know you're kidding but BRD truly was a tank for a short period of time, during the beginning of FFXI era.
That's because AoE songs were generating an insane amount of enmity back then.
I don't remember the details, I was still a noob.
Don't think it lasted long though, nor do I think it was particularly effective...

It basically consisted of abusing movement speed+ songs to build enmity and kite the ***out of whatever you were trying to kill. It was actually pretty effective, but it got nerfed pretty quick.

Also nin/brd was doing just about as good. Similar to how nin was subbing drk for enmity spells. And even for a little bit we saw whm/nin since the na spells would be decent amount but insane if everyone was in range. Same concept with all though. Decent enmity AoE spells that got multiplied by number of targets hit. Was annoying though hitting a bunch of people and keeping them out of danger range

we used PUP for fetter pulls and it was the smoothest way to do the pulls.

I didn't bother to address it but since you brought it up AGAIN.

My "double posts" weren't same content posted multiple times, but mostly I was trying to reply to different quotes.

That's because I type on phone so it was very difficult to copy and paste quotes when I reply to different people.

At least I didn't make 2 posts just to make a VERY big deal out of multiple posts. Geez. Can you just drop it already?

Consider that MAYBE you don't need to respond to every little thing everyone said by quoting them. Just how you didn't bother to address what I said initially.

Seriously, take it to PMs instead of filling up the PUP thread if you feel it's so urgent. Most of it wasn't even related to PUP discussion.


I wouldn't have mentioned it again if you hadn't chided people about starting a pissing contest over the last several pages.

Just.drop.it.


Most of my quotes about dirge and pdif WERE related to the discussion because people brought them up, and it was related to game mechanics too. Agree or disagree it should have ended after I made the point.

Giving out lectures to another forum user repeatly, is off topic and should be taken to PM.


Then (not just you) don't start "what I did in the past" kind of bragging in a job forum then.

Also not throwing shade at anyone here so please don't take this the wrong way if ppl i play with see this. I will say that you can pup tank with pretty minimal gear requirement and investment compared to a top tier run, would assume pld as well but i cant speak for them.

I have to disagree while it is doable for sure for auto to mass pull supertank/sac wave 3 mobs thats gets toted around here. Your still bringing a offtank or someone to pullback stuff off your auto if your killing them. As someone who occ pup tanks for stuff i'll vouch for a run or pld for fetter pulls for silky smoother runs anyday. I dont have Pld so this is my perspective as Run. I can easily build hate on everything with one aoe blu spell and 1-2 run JAs and a foil to the point where dds are not at risk to dying on trash wave 3 fomors vs if we went with pup supertank holding. This results in hella less player deaths from player dying right after pulling hate on any fomor. Every tank dies occ and nothings perfect. Seen the master of auto get caught in AF or for w/e reason or a fomor just went right after the master and knocked his lights out. Groups tend to creep up to the *** where auto is. If it somehow dies to alot of magic damage from a group of mobs or alliance was killing to slow it turns into a mess when fomors aggro the alliance and the offtank wasn't prepared or is set to even grab all these mobs.

This has happened alot with me being on cor/nin after dropping a savage on w/es being killed with shadows on myself. I usually have a rostam offhand so thats 17 dt in my ws set with autos holding stuff. Also expecting the offtank with the single flash pulls to be sufficient enough. Its not and some fomor die fast others dont because PD or Invincible. Your recast is still down for that flash to bring back the next fomor and ppl harping on you to pull back mobs faster. Your lucky enough to at minimum have haste 1 most of the time. While the pups just using triple light to survive with auto and look pretty, we could of instead have had a main tank run or pld built more then enough hate on su5 mobs at this point while everyone was killing off the nqs that are glue to the pld or run that our dds arn't at risk of dying to su5s either from pulling hate. We didn't need to waste a song on dirge either. Also we really don't need a dedicated whm in general for tanks. Can manage with occ outside heals from a rdm, geo or whm. I have no issues choking down panaceas or remedy's if i need em. Only real danger is getting caught in a midcast from flash, foil or cocoon and getting weaponskilled. Otherwise parry set with 55ish% parry chance is great. Or just being Invincible with Battula for 90secs every 5 min on troublesome pulls or high damage su5s mobs like monk,war.

Do i think pups a tank? Ya on (I'm being generous here) 10-15% of content i would say i would over my run. Like Fu (Or w/e the ones is that absorbs buffs and hits and nukes like a truck with enough absorbed) haveing my auto murder him with OD, New Odin it was great for. N clears for Lilith and Caitsith for gear i may of wanted to solo for myself. Fights with some charm mechanics or fights that involve the spell death that autos are immune to like teles from a lost age of MBing helms along with glavoid. Some ambus as well.

I'm sorry to say thou its enmity generation with strobe, flashbulb and the occ shield bash with enm swaps pale in comparison to what i can do as a run/blu. Sure the auto can invincible for a hate spike but i wouldn't even have to 1 hour as run and i would still surpass it with ease. I really want to love this job but i just find out of my my 12 master jobs it is the most disappointing for the work i'v put into it. Besides the niche ambu with bleh mechanics and i see a pup burn i'll join if i'm bored. Bought my Su5 hands recently because i ran out of stuff to rp and have been kinda tired of being denied access to said pug ambus when i see them because i dont own them. Even thou i had no problem clearing these same fights a year ago but w/e.

Honestly I can't in good consciousness recommend this job to people. People ask me if they should level it and my answer is unfortunately along the lines of its trash don't waste your time. I sadly do contemplate dropping all its gear and just gear another job with the new inv space sometimes. It just really doesn't bring much of anything to the table in my opinion that other jobs do just about anything it can do but better. I still hope a pupdate comes along someday that raises it from D tier to S but i won't hold my breath. If i had to think of improvements they went in a good direction with magniplugs 1,2 and flame holder adjustment. If they added 2-4 more attachment slots, increased max ele capacity by 2-4 via job points or new frames, changed how inhibitors worked on AI so auto stops holding tp to try and sc with ppl swap that onto speed loaders instead. Or buff auto base weaponskill ftp or mods or adjust some to damage varies with tp or something. Make optic fiber 3, magniplug 3 or truesights2. I personally would like a galvinizer2 as well.

Holy wall of text!

My LS always runs dual tanks and usually has one tank supertank while the other pulls out to kill. PUP is perfect for the supertank role or sac'ing fetters for fast clears. Even Epeo RUN can occasionally get unlucky and die on wave 3 mobs, especially without a GEO or BRD or BST for defensives/attack down, and it's a single point of failure for the run. You don't use the auto to main tank the wave 3 boss, it's not designed for that (plus I've seen it bug out if the auto is at the top of the hate list as far as Odin).

No one is saying that puppetmaster matches rune fencer's enmity generation. Just, using some strats it's enough enmity generation.


I mean, this is just patently not true, lol. With Overdrive up PUP is an offensive and defensive beast, more mitigation plus offense, can easily solo stuff other jobs would struggle to do. Outside of Overdrive PUP, when set up for offense, it's comparable damage to non-zerg SMN or BST.

You are comparing PUP to things that it isn't. It isn't rune fencer and it isn't a heavy DD zergfest. It is a tank, with its own niche, and a part of pet setups, which are more comparable to ranged or nuking setups. It is also a powerful and accessible solo job.

This is going to come up in the follow-up but might as well go into it here too.

If a tank is reliant on it's SP ability to perform even moderately well then it's got problems. Cicion is right here, if you are using Overdrive on PUP then a RUN/PLD/WAR also being able to use SPs is still going to blow the Automaton away.

No, this is patently false. Saying that a PUP can out damage a non-zerg BST or SMN is just not happening. If a BST is meleeing alongside its pet then all bets are off. If a PUP is also meleeing alongside their Automaton then the gap closes a bit but then you have the added issue of swapping gear sets constantly, thus increasing your margin for error.

Yet you just did exactly that.

True. It has/had its own niche and is still used by/sought after by groups when the mechanics of new content are not known (Odin HTBF immediately springs to mind). However, I think if you asked veteran SMN who they prefer as a tank for groups built around them nine-times-out-ten they will go for the RUN purely for Rayke/Gambit/Odyliic and much better hate control keeping targets off their Avatars. The same thing goes for magic burn setups as Rayke/Gambit are so valuable for burst phases. If anything, the Automaton weapon skilling after a Scholar skillchain will infuriate all involved.

As far as RNG/COR ranged setups go, PLD and RUN, heck even NIN possibly, again are far superior. You cannot use Decoy Shot on the Automaton, which is pivotal for a tank holding hate in these scenarios (especially when Gandiva/Armageddon are thrown into the equation).

You're absolutely right here but you'd have to clarify whether it is purely the Automaton being used or if the PUP is fighting alongside them, which is how I personally like using the job. If fighting alongside the Automaton the PUP faces a big problem, the sheer amount of TP it will feed to its target. Unlike MNK, PUP does not have any native Subtle Blow and needs to get it purely from equipment, some of it taking the place of better DPS gear and none of it also incorporating gear which helps the Automaton at the same time. Ok, this is not such a problem when facing something with single target attacks which will only hit the Automaton but against heavy area attacks, this will quickly become a problem. You could spin this into a strength of the job, being able to back out and let the Automaton handle things, but this will inevitably draw-out a fight due to problems with the job.

NIN/DNC/BLU and especially RDM can all circumvent this problem and a case can be made for all of them being superior save for niche situations.

Much about the job seems designed for solo/lowman setups, like how the Attuner/Target Marker operates just to name two. I would not call PUP an accessible solo job either, especially for new players. The attachments, multiple equipment sets, and 1200 job points being a necessity fly in the face of that statement.

I really want you to qualify what you think of as 'End Game Content'

I keep hearing this wording along with "Against heavy dd's it cannot hold hate.

I want some examples. because frankly I don't think you have them. You might be right, but I don't think so. Its too generalized and obscure. Divergence? pup tanking I've used effectively for years there. Omen? Ambuscade? Master Trials? I haven't used it in Master Trials. HTMB? but really you have to narrow your definition of 'End Game' content to a ridiculous degree to cut pup out as an effective, reliable tank.
The next likely excuse is that "it doesn't tank as well as run or pld". Well duh.

FFXI is a complex game. The complex part is how your organize your parties and alliances to tackle content. How long did things continue where NO ONE used Adventurer's Dirge or Subtle blow strategies?
Did these abilities suddenly get buffed in the last year? No, not at all. Dirge just came out of the closet called merit points and subtle blow gained Ruau as an Advocate willing to put the time and energy into making video's to argue his case.
They were always viable, but there were not enough people gathered together to give it a serious test to make it work, and then clearly communicate the effectiveness.

I really like Ruau's video work for FFXI. I just really disagree about using pup as a tank. It is certainly the number 3 tank job in the game. There are times when it works BETTER than Run or PLD, though those are very niche situations. It is certainly used to tank more than any other job after pld and run.

I think there should be alot of viable strategies for tackling this game's content. Pet Strategies have been popular for end game ever since Monster's Inc Linkshell were taking down sky gods in 30s at level 75. Back then Pet jobs were shut out from 'end game' by the same attitude you are repeating now.

I have little idea about the playstyle and capabilities of a Dark Knight or Samurai. I've never seriously played them. I've never tested how far they can go.
I HAVE pushed bst and pup quite a bit.

Blah!

Using Overdrive for tanking is such a huge waste! I never do that. I would rather swap to dd build to use overdrive. Too little gain for losing the potential for offensive overdrive.
I might use Heady Artifice for benediction or invincible in tanking situations, but only for an emergency button, and mostly for Emergency Enmity.


hmmm dps comparisons between pup, bst and smn... this is a funny situation. Aerix posted alot of great data for comparison back when su5 and the puppet updates came out about a year ago. Then the h2h update happened as well, but I dont' recall seeing comparison data from that.

it is just that dps comparisons are so difficult for these 3 pet jobs. Summoner is all about the pet. Its pet spike damage and its HUGE. Really the only reason to use master on smn is to open skillchain when solo.

however for bst and pup this is not the case at all. for pet only damage, OUTSIDE special abilities. I think its probably easier to max out pup damage right now, but I'm not sure.
Then things change ALOT when you comparing master + pet.

The damage balance is so incredibly dependent upon what buffs you are getting and how you are configured with gear and attachments.

The masters for both can be buffed alot more than pets, so usually thats better.

So Ruau, you say pup won't compare to non-zerg bst/smn for damage, I don't think anyone has done a fair comparison to make that judgment. even if its just comparing bst and pup, I dont' think anyone has come close to a good comparison there. In fact, I'm really not sure HOW to make that comparison. what buffs, what configuration would actually make it viable. Defining parameters, and probably multiple scenarios would have to be done first.

This is probably the crux of the problem of integrating pet jobs into non-pet parties. They just don't match the simple parameters for comparison very well at all. they are mostly hybrid jobs afterall. It would probably be more effective to make parties where everyone has a hybrid role.

Genuinely curious.

Did your group cleave with sonic thrust/Aeolian Edge/fell cleave or run a none /assist strat(every DD fight different mobs) there?

So I wasn't going to respond, but since it's a well written response, sure.
Most of my posts before were half trolls, so I'll give a proper reponse and shed light on my thoughts.

I'd classify endgame as most level 150 content: Aeonics, Master trials, dynamis. The content where you ideally want a tank. I don't bring a tank for anything that isn't them 3 main things tbh. Gear is just too good that any DD can take a few hits now.


I know PUP can do dynamis divergence, however, personally, I just don't believe it's worth it. In my opinion, bringing a PUP as a 2nd tank to possibly sac pull is a waste of time. Having 2 RUNs is just too good from all my experiences. 1 RUN can pull all 8 mobs and hold them with no risk of ever dying. Add a geo barrier or a wilt and they will never die, even from SCs.

I can totally understand the argument of using a PUP to sac pull if your group isn't well geared or knowledge of mechanics isn't fully there yet and time is a large concern. However I really just don't see the use when the group is fully geared and prepared.

I just feel the need for a PUP in dynamis is too big of a loss to justify it being there. 2 RUNs you can rotate Rayke and Gambit and melt the boss in 15 minutes or so.


So this train of thought comes from the current meta. 4-5 years ago it was Magic burn meta, now it is the DD zerg meta.
The reason people use this strategy for most content is because of how quickly it is. People don't like taking the long way to do stuff.
And when you use a setup that works with a PUP it's a very selfish job. By that I mean your entire setup must suit the PUP for it to work at its best. And that might hinder other party members if their pet jobs aren't up to scratch.


There is ofcourse a wide variety of strategies to use, however using the PUP is often much slower, and while being slower it may not be safer than using say a Mnk subtle blow strat.

Gear has became so good that a RUN can resist charm from almost every NM 9/10 times without light carols. So that argument PUP used to have no longer applies from my experience.

I did speak to Aerix a little and the way I spoke about PUP was wrong and it was just to get reactions from people, but my honest opinion about the job is that it's a neat job for new players who want to play it or play extra cautious , but with how overpowered every other job is, I feel like it lost its place in current endgame for utility.

If we are talking strictly pet burn with proper buffs and no 1hrs then PUP can absolutely keep up with and even outdamage Nirvana SMNs.

A Bruiser tankmaton does about 50% of a BiS SMN without AM3 while still fully capable of tanking. A pure offense VE/Sharpshot maton, on the other hand, can do approximately 100-180% of a SMN's damage according to my parsing. A maton such as this with Beast/Comp Roll will do very quick white damage for 700-1400 per hit with nearly 30k WSs at a much faster rate than BPs. No Overdrive needed.

I haven't played with any top-tier BSTs so far so I've been unable to parse them for comparison. If any BST players could chime in with regard to their pet burn numbers I'd be interested.

As far as melee PUP vs. melee BST goes then PUP would probably lose if Primal/Cloudsplitter are usable and are getting GEO support, but otherwise they would probably be more or less tied if the BST is stuck using Decimation/Mistral/Calamity.


Could you clarify what this is supposed to mean? Those two attachments work the same whether you are solo or in a full alliance.


I'm currently in the process of trying to augment solid Herc pieces for Howling Fist (having a hard time with TA+VIT), then I'll be parsing R15 KKK, R15 Vere, R15 Godhands, Xiucoatl B, Xiucoatl C and Karambit against each other at Attack cap. With DD puppet included for the best setup.

It will take a while before I can get around to that, however.

I dont think this is true for everything that can be effectively flaming crushed tho, because then with proper buffs that BP does 99k dmg.

My previously posted parses usually had non-Nirvana SMNs doing around 45k-60k Volt Strikes and I ended up doing almost double with my pure DD Automaton.

The Nirvana SMN I currently play with does about 55-70k Hysteric Assaults without AM3 in Omen and yet my Bruiser maton still does roughly 40-50% of that DPS. And a Bruiser is nowhere close to a Sharpshot.

99k Flaming Crushes are the reason the lower end of my estimate was 100% of a SMN's damage, i.e. both jobs are roughly tied when using a Sharpshot maton. Personally though I feel like I'm being kinda conservative with that estimate in favor of SMN, but I don't want to make claims I can't back up with solid numbers. I'll get around to parsing it eventually.

... a BST won't melee alongside its pet for pet setups, usually, because of AoE. Even with the range nerf you can still get far away enough from many AoEs, especially in Omen and especially using tiger. And a DD auto can absolutely compete with SMN or BST in pure pet setup for damage, I've parsed a ton of them over the years. Flaming Crush isn't used in a lot of fights because you do see resists and it usually means double GEO. Outside of FC PUP can deal comparable damage. I see what Aerix sees, bruiser PUP tank does about 50% of a SMN's dps whenever AFAC isn't used. Automaton damage is much more scaleable because of Companion's Roll and not being tied to a timer like SMN or BST.

The reason why you Overdrive is because solo you don't get Companion's Roll, and you want your auto doing big skillchains to knock chunks off of a mob with a huge HP pool, like 135 UNMs. It's not for tanking per se. RUN/PLD SPs are for mitigation, which usually puppetmasters don't care about so much because we get a lot of it through attachments. WAR's SPs are for pure damage and yes, they'll blow the auto away.... but they don't add to the warrior's ability to tank, and they don't make warrior a brick wall that can withstand a dozen Volte mobs beating on it, lol.

As far as melee with master plus pet, I don't know, man. I have Kenkonken, which I haven't R15'ed because I rarely play puppetmaster these days. I also have Aymur and I have Dolichenus, which is actually BST's best melee weapon. I think Decimation does more damage than Stringing Pummel but weaponskill frequency on beastmaster could be a lot better. For BST the pet is like a pocket GEO, you are typically using slug for its amazing -ATK/DEF down and -max HP. You get very little out of it otherwise.


By comparing PUP to the other two pet jobs?


I'm a veteran SMN. For AFAC burn it'll always be rune fencer for Odyllic Subterfuge, helps with stuff like Albumen from enfeebling the avatars, but you can have any monkey do that role, even a basic-gear RUN alt, takes little gear and no skill. Other content like Omen it doesn't really matter, we run RUN or PLD if someone needs cards and we have a WHM, otherwise PUP, because then I don't have to beg or bully someone to main heal. I do a lot of pure pet setups, so like we'll typically do Omen with PUP tank and BST SMNx2 as DDs.

Decoy Shot is important on ranged setups but not required, especially with Annihilator. I'll be honest, I don't do ranged setups much outside of Dyna- it's limited to Fu and maybe the Soulflayer/Moogle ambu. PUP is better for Fu than the other two tanks. Ambu you'll use RUN or PLD.


Using pure pet solo on PUP, just allowing the auto to tank and kill a mob, is slower but safer. You aren't reliant on Trusts that fold under AoEs and you don't care about TP feed. Red mage and blue mage are both beasts solo, sure. So is PUP. Ninja and dancer aren't even in the same stratosphere, or at least I don't see players using them to do "big" solos much.


Oboro weapon, a tanking weapon, a set of augmented Taeon gear, 100 jp, and most of the attachments, and PUP is able to tank and solo almost any content that a PUP can do. Paladin needs Aegis and 3K HP and ideally some sets, rune fencer needs a bunch of sets. PUP is definitely accessible my dude.

RUN only needs an aettir, 119 AFs, Ambu back and some enmity+ gears for flash/foil and it's good to go. 119 AF body, head, legs and feet are easier to obtain than augmented taeon. The only gear that's somewhat difficult for a new player is actually Dring since pops are expensive now, but BG has a DT set without Dring so Dring is probably not a requirement too.

Most sets like phalanx, DD sets, lunge set, cure potency, spell interruption- is absolutely not required.

Honestly RUN only needs enmity+, DT- and FC set to "tank" most endgame content, everything else is just a nice bonus. Its one of the easiest job to gear in game, about the same as WAR and only a little bit harder than WHM.

I don't know why people keep saying RUN is a hard job to play here just to justify PUPs "new player friendly" image. Some even say RUN needs 3rd pt tools. PUP is 100% tougher to learn than many other jobs and takes more effort gear too. I wouldn't call PUP "new player friendly" unlike RUN, WAR and WHM.

Lol Afania, you went too far.

Are you seriously called WHM new player friendly?
I think you are looking at this not from NEW PLAYER perspective, but rather from NEW CHAR MADE BY EXPERIENCED FFXI PLAYER perspective.

I would like you to try teach real new player all the whm buffs, how cure works, when to cure, how enmity works and which -na for what and in what priority you want to use them, what's erase, what's esuna and how it works with and without misery, how to keep distance, how to make 50 macros etc.

Now lets look at pup. You teach new player how to setup bruiser automaton. You teach him the meaning of using 3-4 different maneuvers. You teach him 3 basic pet commands. That's all, he can play PUP on basic lvl.

Also massive difference for new player is also the feel of responsibility. WHM is responsible for whole party and there is usually a big pressure put on it. PUP has no pressure. You put auto on mob and keep maneuvers up. You cant really fail anything big and make party wipe.

Easy gearing is not the only thing that makes jobs NEW player friendly or not.

Naw WHM is plenty new player friendly. Look at how HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE WHM trusts are, all you have to do is be better than those. Not that hard. From experience of running a LS for new players getting to a place where they can contribute early on whm geo cor are for sure the way to go. Don't really think RUN is that new player friendly but I haven't really went over starting RUN sets in a long time so IDK.

The Attuner and Target Marker ignore a % of target DEF/EVA, quite a bit actually when fully powered. This however becomes moot the second Geo-Frailty/Torpor goes on the target or when enough is otherwise done to lower target defense so the Automaton hits PDIF regardless.

I don't use the Attuner when there's a GEO around for this exact reason. If I'm solo or lowman there's a very good chance I'm not at PDIF cap so this is where the Attuner really pays off. Target Marker is harder to give up though, especially on high end content.

Not only do I agree with this (and pretty much everything else Sirris said in the past couple pages), but if people are going to say getting Taeon augments is some big deal... Rao set (including NQ) is an alternate option that works just fine too. For tanking weapon, Midnights is absolutely fine (and even if someone doesn't want to pop the Escha-Ru'Aun NM, can buy the damn thing with 2.5 days worth of Domain Invasion points).

As for learning technique after that modest gear requirement, it's not exactly hard to deploy the automaton and cycle maneuvers while wearing pet DT gear. Stepping up to "pro" level is a matter of swapping in Pet Enmity+ gear before a voke/flash (as a practical matter, prob does need NQ Su3 gear, so 500JP+). Anyone who thinks PUP tanking is some highly difficult skill to learn is just wrong.


To correct this as politely as possible, it seems you simply misunderstood the point Sirris made. He was saying that PUP tanks fine with no SPs if just considering defensive capabilities, but once you add Overdrive to the mix PUP is also a good source of OFFENSE for a zerg-ish (3min 20sec of Overdrive, so a pretty decent chunk of time) fight, while simultaneously tanking. I don't believe I've ever seen a PLD pop SP and suddenly start contributing potent damage while they tank.

It's not an aspect of tanking that applies in most fights, but you run into the occasional Ambuscade/pop NM/HTBF/etc. where a single PUP using SP can basically be all the offense you need while also tanking by setting up in a "bruiser" hybrid offense/defense style (can even be done 100% solo in many situations, and is only enhanced by adding COR rolls, debuffs, second puppet, etc.).

If you don't think there's any value in doing, say, a D~VD Ambuscade with SP, then... do you think there's any value in Astral Flow, Mighty Strikes, Yaegasumi, or any other zerg-friendly SP that is regularly employed in similar zerg fights?

And I've sure as hell found more cases where solo/lowman Overdrive puppet wins are viable, where I couldn't say the same thing for my Epeo RUN popping SPs and attempting to solo.


Those things ^^


Nobody here has been trying to force PUP into every strat or convince people to replace another setup that works for them. People are just saying that PUP is clearly a viable tank (nobody's even saying IT'S ABSOLUTELY THE BEST) for a significant amount of content. Seems pretty obvious that PUP warrants a spot in a discussion that includes NIN and WAR as "tank jobs", since it should be obvious to anyone who isn't being willfully ignorant that PUP has a lot more viable tanking use than either of those two jobs, in content that's meaningful in 2020.

If the original video was focused only on PLD RUN, I think people would probably comprehend it as being geared toward the jobs that are capable tanks for nearly any situation. But once you start adding stuff like NIN (niche tank at best) and WAR (very hard to argue it's even a tank), it becomes glaring to omit PUP. I appreciate that there has to be some cutoff point or you'd be talking about half of the jobs in the game having some scenario where they can tank (Manawall! DRK with spikes/drain/mega-HP! MNK, DNC, BLU, RDM, etc, etc...). But if you're doing anything beyond the big two of PLD and RUN, PUP is the most obvious and frequently used alternative.

Is this the go to WS for PUP due to ambuschade weapon? Thanks for reply too.

Out of all the "what job should I level first to get into endgame" question on Reddit, 95% will answer WHM, GEO, COR, WAR. Aettir RUN will be suggested if the player wants to tank. Sometimes people mention THF or BLU too.

I don't recall seeing a lot of "PUP" recommendation at all, LOL. I wouldn't even consider it a new player friendly job, most of the time when people in new player friendly LS talk about PUP most response was "attachments are expensive for new players".

Some response from this thread CERTAINLY has very different pov from the majority. I think people are trying too hard by saying it's new player friendly.

I generally can agree that if NIN is in the video then PUP should be included too. But I wouldn't call PUP a new player friendly job just because I want to sell such idea.

Also just FYI, if you are starting out, you do not need to understand every WHM spell at advanced level. Just cure at reasonable speed is normally good enough for easy content like SR or zitah.

PUP with somewhat lowish gear and JP will underperform though, more so as a tank because pet DT gears don't just came out of nowhere, they need to be farmed and that's more difficult for new players IMO.

So yup, you guys are the one who are having pov of experienced players gearing alt because appearantly Gil isn't an issue for you guys, lol.

With so many missing gear sets the RUN is just getting carried by its backline, particularly the WHM. And constant buff/Rune/Enmity maintenance can be quite overwhelming for a new player.

It can obviously still work, but a basic RUN means a harder time for everyone involved and may limit the content level you can approach.

A 100 JP tankmaton with enough DT gear (even if it's just NQ Rao) can jump right into tanking pretty much anything without difficult mechanics where PUP is typically viable--and at any content level. And a Bruiser setup is the more advanced version of that when a PUP is experienced, properly geared and 1200-mastered. It will contribute a lot more to the group than just a turtle maton, especially in terms of holding hate. But by no means is a fully augmented Taeon set a minimum requirement.


You're not wrong, but the one of the main reasons those jobs are recommended over PUP is the same reason we're all arguing here on the PUP forums. PUP has a stigma attached to it and is largely regarded as too niche by the community. Gearing RUN, GEO, COR or WHM will get you into groups more easily in the long run. THF and BLU are undeniably better at farming stuff.

But mechanically PUP is definitely easy to pick up at a basic level if you just follow a guide for setups.

That said, some people think PUP has a low ceiling because of that, but that is simply not true. Simply following guides will only get you so far. Tinkering with gear and attachments to optimize for each situation is what makes the job a lot more complex, especially as you have to know how everything interacts and how to properly manipulate the AI. This is what raises the ceiling considerably.


Capping PDIF easily might be the case if you're exclusively using Armor Shatterer because it gets a massive Attack Bonus. But from my experience a WS like Arcuballista definitely sees some improvement if you stack Attuner and TS3-4 on top of Idris Frailty and the usual buffs while fighting high-end NMs. And Idris Torpor is always useful for more evasive targets where even Target Marker struggles because using Thunder Maneuvers will affect your damage output and WS priority.

Having a GEO around (or RDM if Geomancy is nerfed) is just as useful to PUP as it is to SMN and BST. And there's no reason not to use debuffers in a mixed pet burn setup.


Honestly, probably not if you already have the means to get a full set of Relic+3 anyway. Howling Fist is by far PUP's best WS (barring SP with R15 KKK) when geared for Multiattack/VIT/Acc/Atk with some WSD as a weaker alternative. Godhands really elevate HF as well.

Karambit AF is really consistent and decent if you are just starting out without having much gear to really push HF numbers, but it reaches its limit very quickly due to its low mods and already capped number of attacks.

I don't agree, lunge and DD set only adds DPS, doesn't add defensive capabilities. Phalanx set only really matters for omen pulling adds. MAYBE dynamis D pulling adds. Slight damage reduction doesn't save a RUN dying from strong TP moves.

Interruption- set is never required unless AoE pulling in omen. I don't even bother with it on my RUN lol. Just aquaveil and FC is good enough to fire off spells.

I just don't get whats so hard about playing RUN as a new player. Its basically engage, pop JA and spam foil on recast. The jobs innate job trait like mdef and parry will save the players from dying. The job only gets difficult on hate reset and other similar mechanics that needs positioning and reacting, and it's not like PUP tank doesn't need to deal with these things.


Exactly! Run literally need 1 basic tanking set and they can deal with majority of situations. Besides very few fights that needs a high HP build, It doesn't really need specialized tanking sets in most fights because the job has so much mdef and meva. Since most of the defensive stats came from traits it actually requires less gear and Gil farm than jobs like PUP.

All these "hey PUP is easy because you just need to spam manuevers" didn't get that it's time and Gil investments required before they can do that.

A RUN without DD gear, solid FC gear (Inspiration helps, but can get dispelled) or a finished Enmity set will absolutely struggle holding hate against better-geared DDs. And in any content with adds (like D-VD Ambu) they will definitely be taking significantly more damage without any Phalanx+ gear. Additionally, a lack of MEVA gear means mechanics like Charm, Amnesia, Curse or Stun are also a much bigger issue than they are for high-end RUNs or PUP.

As I said, it's still entirely possible, but a new RUN and their party definitely have to work much harder compared to a new PUP tank.

Honestly I'm not sure how we went from "PUP is an easy starter job, but PLD and RUN are for high-end stuff" that everyone against PUP seemed to agree with to "RUN is an easier starter job than PUP".