Ambuscade Volume 1-October 2017

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Ambuscade Volume 1-October 2017
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 Leviathan.Sidra
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By Leviathan.Sidra 2017-10-15 10:19:47
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I was clearing VD in 7:45 - 8:30

NIN DRG WAR WHM BRD PLD

Both DD's nin sub, and no heals at all on anyone on the boss so we ended fights under 5 hp, but also means drains didn't heal much. Honor March, March, Madrigal.

I think you guys are splitting hairs here.
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-10-15 10:51:20
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Lowest was 6:55 Sec
and look there is a NIN
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By Afania 2017-10-15 17:10:03
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Asura.Alexhander said: »
Ragnarok.Senzumi said: »
You don't need a whm, been using a rdm for VD spam. Don't even need anyone to /smn just have the tank kite, latest easiest and safest set my group has been using was brd rdm pld geo ninx2 8-9min VD's but nothing scary or hard about it. Could probably go a bit faster with another dd if ya really want but seems to make the main spam the AoE drain in the pre -30% phase.
Didn't read before fully agree


Since I finally cap cure potency on COR from campaign, kinda been wondering how effective it is to use cor/whm as main healer, for extra def down and rolls.

I'm thinking chaos Sam without geo, rogue + Sam with geo to boost white dmg. Although I'm not sure if DA roll works better than that.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-15 18:04:32
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Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Why this should be an issue? you're always forced to bring a PLD or a RUN to kite.. whats wrong with bringing a NIN to be safer or play smarter/faster?

You do what you want in the end with your group. it won't change the facts about best possible scenarios especially (80%-30%).

Edit: Also the lowest recorded VD was done with 3 NINs so far.

Because expert NIN's don't appear out of thin air, and seeing as NIN has been a very unpopular DD for awhile now, the chances of seeing them are very few. So the choice is going to be a shitty thrown together NIN or a well built expert "other DD job". This is why it's best to develop strategies with multiple selections for DD jobs.
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 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-10-15 19:05:26
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Have you never seen Ninja Scroll? Appearing out of thin air is exactly what good ninjas do!
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 Leviathan.Brotherhood
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By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2017-10-15 19:17:52
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you mean shadows right?
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-10-15 19:18:17
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Afania said: »
Asura.Alexhander said: »
Ragnarok.Senzumi said: »
You don't need a whm, been using a rdm for VD spam. Don't even need anyone to /smn just have the tank kite, latest easiest and safest set my group has been using was brd rdm pld geo ninx2 8-9min VD's but nothing scary or hard about it. Could probably go a bit faster with another dd if ya really want but seems to make the main spam the AoE drain in the pre -30% phase.
Didn't read before fully agree


Since I finally cap cure potency on COR from campaign, kinda been wondering how effective it is to use cor/whm as main healer, for extra def down and rolls.

I'm thinking chaos Sam without geo, rogue + Sam with geo to boost white dmg. Although I'm not sure if DA roll works better than that.

If it was up to me I might shift the rolls towards [Miser's/Samurai] and focus more on WS spam rather than white damage. white damage [with spikes] won't come as near as 99k every other second?
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-10-15 19:19:32
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Why this should be an issue? you're always forced to bring a PLD or a RUN to kite.. whats wrong with bringing a NIN to be safer or play smarter/faster?

You do what you want in the end with your group. it won't change the facts about best possible scenarios especially (80%-30%).

Edit: Also the lowest recorded VD was done with 3 NINs so far.

Because expert NIN's don't appear out of thin air, and seeing as NIN has been a very unpopular DD for awhile now, the chances of seeing them are very few. So the choice is going to be a shitty thrown together NIN or a well built expert "other DD job". This is why it's best to develop strategies with multiple selections for DD jobs.

It would be great if someone spent sometime to actually map out NIN between other DD classes because its seriously neglected atm.
 Asura.Taberif
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By Asura.Taberif 2017-10-15 19:48:05
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silence the astrologers if you are kiting, takes 2 seconds to cast on each one and saves you alot of pathing annoyance.

curious if anyone has tried just stun locking the boss?
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 Carbuncle.Papesse
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By Carbuncle.Papesse 2017-10-15 20:45:08
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It builds a resistance to stun duration like any "Impossible to gauge" foe. A long duration stun like Shock Squall lasts 16~24 seconds then only 3~6 seconds (which can still help) after some uses.

You can Silence the boss though and avoid Utsu San spam <30% but it take multiple attempts, mages should spam Silence until one immunobreak message then ES Silence. Wind Threnody II is also completely resisted even with N/T and ES but it is possible to land it with Rayke Gellus.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-15 20:54:50
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Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Why this should be an issue? you're always forced to bring a PLD or a RUN to kite.. whats wrong with bringing a NIN to be safer or play smarter/faster?

You do what you want in the end with your group. it won't change the facts about best possible scenarios especially (80%-30%).

Edit: Also the lowest recorded VD was done with 3 NINs so far.

Because expert NIN's don't appear out of thin air, and seeing as NIN has been a very unpopular DD for awhile now, the chances of seeing them are very few. So the choice is going to be a shitty thrown together NIN or a well built expert "other DD job". This is why it's best to develop strategies with multiple selections for DD jobs.

It would be great if someone spent sometime to actually map out NIN between other DD classes because its seriously neglected atm.

It's a mid tier DD at best, not too bad if it can stay behind the monster the entire fight and ride Innin but since hate is normally rotated between DD's that won't happen. The culprit is the Katana WS's, they don't exploit very well. Ten is the only one that scales damage with TP and it's got shitty 30/30 mods instead of the more common 50/50 or 80 of the other scaling WS's. Hi would be great except it suffers the same issue that JR does, really annoying stat to pump up. Shun is decent damage 1K but it gains virtually nothing going past that unless your fighting without proper buffs. So it's weak compared to the other heavy hitters, just compare the fTP of Hi and Shun vs things like Rudras, CDC, Resolution, Stardiver or even Fudo (the weakest of the high end WS's). Hell Vorpal Blade and Evisceration have better damage scaling then Hi / Shun. Not as bad a situation as MNK, but not in the best situation either.

Of course this months Ambuscade mechanics are such that WS Damage is almost always going to be 99K, so that weakness doesn't apply and like MNK it's strengths (Shadows / Subtle Blow) are highlighted.
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 Odin.Geriond
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By Odin.Geriond 2017-10-15 21:09:45
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Carbuncle.Papesse said: »
It builds a resistance to stun duration like any "Impossible to gauge" foe. A long duration stun like Shock Squall lasts 16~24 seconds then only 3~6 seconds (which can still help) after some uses.

You can Silence the boss though and avoid Utsu San spam <30% but it take multiple attempts, mages should spam Silence until one immunobreak message then ES Silence. Wind Threnody II is also completely resisted even with N/T and ES but it is possible to land it with Rayke Gellus.
Hmm? The bard in my party today said he was landing Wind Threnody, and we didn't have a RUN in party.
 Carbuncle.Papesse
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By Carbuncle.Papesse 2017-10-15 21:35:41
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Ok, I just checked again. It's possible to land N/T Wind Threnody without Rayke but extremely difficult, even with the near best possible gear. I had to use SV/food/Ice Threnody and only managed to land it once.
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By clearlyamule 2017-10-15 22:29:21
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Seems jps have already mapped the elemental resistances to an extent and yeah ice is in the 2nd lowest possible tier so basically just slightly less resistant than an elemental kind. Which seems to correspond to not only actual ridiculously high resistances to that element but also very high full resist rate regardless of macc and also sdt to that element. A skillchain though or rayke should make it so macc actually matters and you can land if you have enough.

Wind is only semi resistant... but things like silence that have traits and immunobreaks kind of follow their own thing
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By Afania 2017-10-15 22:44:22
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This months ambu may favor empyrean weapons more than aeonic or mythic.

Cala drks been hitting 40k+ per swing with am proc, since ws cap at 99999 easy the white damage just stand out. other empy like Ukon may do quite well too.
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 Leviathan.Louisoix
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By Leviathan.Louisoix 2017-10-15 23:18:03
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So am3 Rag war should do pretty alright then as well.
 Odin.Geriond
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By Odin.Geriond 2017-10-15 23:35:00
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Is Turn The Tables just a single target version of Enforce, used only on lower difficulties?
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By clearlyamule 2017-10-16 00:57:49
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Odin.Geriond said: »
Is Turn The Tables just a single target version of Enforce, used only on lower difficulties?
Not sure if it's only on lower difficulties but yeah it's pretty much a single target version
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By geigei 2017-10-16 02:31:59
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So i went sch instead of whm, never had to heal once thx to regen. On a sidenote enfire was doing 50-100 per hit, any chance i get this higher?
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-10-16 04:04:09
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Aren't all damage sources multiplied by 10? If so then probably the added effects are too and a 5-10 per hit becomes 50-100
 
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 Shiva.Spynx
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By Shiva.Spynx 2017-10-16 09:52:19
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DirectX said: »
Afania said: »
Since I finally cap cure potency on COR from campaign
What gear do you use for this?
Pretty sure he had some DM augments on herculean(especially since he mentions campaign) as there are not many non-augs items with cure potency for COR:
  • Chatoyant Staff/Galenus +10 - Potentially 13 with PW sword, Sanus Ensis

  • Solemnity Cape +7

  • Volunteer's Khud +5 (augmented taeon can have same boost and extra MND/meva/defense being iLVL)

  • Mendi. Earring +5

  • Phalaina Locket +4

  • Lebeche Ring +3


Considering you usually want to deal damage/save TP so no weapon swap you are looking at 24 CP (up to 37 with weapon). To reach the 50 cap you need to get 26 with taeon (+5 CP with leafdim) and lucky herculean DM.
 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2017-10-16 10:24:16
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He mentioned being main healer, so I assume he wasn't necessarily looking to do damage as well. In this case, both the weapon slot (Sanus) and ranged slot (Doomsday augments) are on the table.
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By geigei 2017-10-16 10:33:06
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I'm overcapped on cor using 5/5 taeon doomsday and some accessories.
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By hushmunkey 2017-10-16 11:08:59
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Why this should be an issue? you're always forced to bring a PLD or a RUN to kite.. whats wrong with bringing a NIN to be safer or play smarter/faster?

You do what you want in the end with your group. it won't change the facts about best possible scenarios especially (80%-30%).

Edit: Also the lowest recorded VD was done with 3 NINs so far.

Because expert NIN's don't appear out of thin air, and seeing as NIN has been a very unpopular DD for awhile now, the chances of seeing them are very few. So the choice is going to be a shitty thrown together NIN or a well built expert "other DD job". This is why it's best to develop strategies with multiple selections for DD jobs.

It would be great if someone spent sometime to actually map out NIN between other DD classes because its seriously neglected atm.

It's a mid tier DD at best, not too bad if it can stay behind the monster the entire fight and ride Innin but since hate is normally rotated between DD's that won't happen. The culprit is the Katana WS's, they don't exploit very well. Ten is the only one that scales damage with TP and it's got shitty 30/30 mods instead of the more common 50/50 or 80 of the other scaling WS's. Hi would be great except it suffers the same issue that JR does, really annoying stat to pump up. Shun is decent damage 1K but it gains virtually nothing going past that unless your fighting without proper buffs. So it's weak compared to the other heavy hitters, just compare the fTP of Hi and Shun vs things like Rudras, CDC, Resolution, Stardiver or even Fudo (the weakest of the high end WS's). Hell Vorpal Blade and Evisceration have better damage scaling then Hi / Shun. Not as bad a situation as MNK, but not in the best situation either.

Of course this months Ambuscade mechanics are such that WS Damage is almost always going to be 99K, so that weakness doesn't apply and like MNK it's strengths (Shadows / Subtle Blow) are highlighted.

When geared right NIN is far from "a mid tier DD at best." It does take work to properly gear however and I agree that its WS's don't help.
Shun is definitely better with more tp. Drop one at 1k and one at 3k and you'll plainly see.
Among the best players NIN performs at least on par with or better than BLU. However, without TLC and proper gearing it will absolutely be mid - tier at best, and unfortunately due to the nature of how it's geared it will be exaggeratedly so; but the same can be said of ANY poorly geared job.

Fortunately the mob this month is a qutrub and even your brd can hit 5 9's with rudra's XD
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-16 12:16:50
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hushmunkey said: »
When geared right NIN is far from "a mid tier DD at best."

It's solidly in the mid tier category and that's almost entirely due to it's WS's.

hushmunkey said: »
Drop one at 1k and one at 3k and you'll plainly see.

The only thing Shun gets from TP is attack bonus, if your not capped at 1K then your not buffed properly. If you are seeing a difference in damage, then your doing it wrong.

This is what "properly buffed DD" looks like.

Idris BoG + Ecliptic / Bolster Geo-Frailty + Dia II + Light Shot

NT Marcato Honor March + Victory March + Min V + Mad II (or other song if acc is fine).

Crooked Samurai's Roll + Chaos (or other roll if Attack is already capped).

That is the measure upon which DD's are graded in group content, and that is where NIN falls into the "mid tier DD" category. Don't like it, tough call SE and complain to them.

Quote:
Among the best players NIN performs at least on par with or better than BLU

This is false regardless of gear level. Give both jobs the exact same gear level and the BLU will smoke the NIN in a pure DPS contest. This has to do with the damage scaling of CDC vs Hi and Shun (or Savage but that's a different situation). And neither touch the damage output of jobs like WAR, SAM, DRK, and DRG. WAR, SAM and DRK will be doing 28~36K WS's while SAM will be lower per-WS damage but with a higher volume.
 Cerberus.Resetti
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By Cerberus.Resetti 2017-10-16 12:38:27
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Asura.Saevel said: »
hushmunkey said: »
When geared right NIN is far from "a mid tier DD at best."

It's solidly in the mid tier category and that's almost entirely due to it's WS's.

hushmunkey said: »
Drop one at 1k and one at 3k and you'll plainly see.

The only thing Shun gets from TP is attack bonus, if your not capped at 1K then your not buffed properly. If you are seeing a difference in damage, then your doing it wrong.

This is what "properly buffed DD" looks like.

Idris BoG + Ecliptic / Bolster Geo-Frailty + Dia II + Light Shot

NT Marcato Honor March + Victory March + Min V + Mad II (or other song if acc is fine).

Crooked Samurai's Roll + Chaos (or other roll if Attack is already capped).

That is the measure upon which DD's are graded in group content, and that is where NIN falls into the "mid tier DD" category. Don't like it, tough call SE and complain to them.

Quote:
Among the best players NIN performs at least on par with or better than BLU

This is false regardless of gear level. Give both jobs the exact same gear level and the BLU will smoke the NIN in a pure DPS contest. This has to do with the damage scaling of CDC vs Hi and Shun (or Savage but that's a different situation). And neither touch the damage output of jobs like WAR, SAM, DRK, and DRG. WAR, SAM and DRK will be doing 28~36K WS's while SAM will be lower per-WS damage but with a higher volume.

Obviously you've never met an insane DD Nin! Neildylandy is one of those NINs that can outparse the jobs you listed.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-10-16 12:39:33
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hushmunkey said: »
When geared right NIN is far from "a mid tier DD at best." It does take work to properly gear however and I agree that its WS's don't help.
Shun is definitely better with more tp. Drop one at 1k and one at 3k and you'll plainly see.
Among the best players NIN performs at least on par with or better than BLU. However, without TLC and proper gearing it will absolutely be mid - tier at best, and unfortunately due to the nature of how it's geared it will be exaggeratedly so; but the same can be said of ANY poorly geared job.

Fortunately the mob this month is a qutrub and even your brd can hit 5 9's with rudra's XD

Cerberus.Resetti said: »
Obviously you've never met an insane DD Nin! Neildylandy is one of those NINs that can outparse the jobs you listed.

Good enthusiasm, but Saevel is right. A NIN that's engaging quickly and WSing at 1000 TP will beat a similarly geared half-afk BLU, sure. The numbers don't lie though, on otherwise equal footing the NIN gets curb stomped.
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By hushmunkey 2017-10-16 12:51:02
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You're right about getting nothing from shun when attack capped.

As for NIN getting smoked by BLU - i think you're playing with shitty ninjas. I was out-parsing REAM BLU's spamming hi while main-handing kanaria. DPS- ing as BLU it's easier to perform, & crap ninjas sadly are not in short supply, but that doesn't mean it can't perform.

WAR doing mighty strikes is OP as anything but draw out the fight and other DD's catch up. I say that to point out that performance is also situationally affected. As for 26-36k WS's... for one - I hope your WAR and DRKs are doing more than that. Two - in the same way that SAM will do the lower end of that spectrum at greater volume a ninja will do the same 20-25k blade: tens are far from unheard of. Three THF not only WS's at greater volume but also obscenely high dmg.

I don't mean to turn this into a job war. I think people should play as whatever they like and try to make it more than it is. As a NIN main I just wanted to point out (speaking from personal experience) that it's better as a DD than mid tier "at best".

Regarding this month's Ambuscade, damn near everybody can hit 99999 WS's so if someone IS playing ninja they should maybe be a bit more worried about landing enfeebles like Hojo and maintaining enmity.
Additionally, as has already been pointed out - expert ninjas aren't exactly dropping out of the sky so why not have a strategy for this month that doesn't revolve around a whole tram of NIN? My PT setup beating VD V1 was RUN, BLU, WHM, NIN, RDM,BRD ... and since this month has highlighted NIN's viability, maybe it'd be a good time to stop discounting the job as "a mid tier DD at best," and take the time to find out what it can really do. If you don't have the gear to start playing with its limits, there's a pretty active community on the ninja forums. It'd be a good place to get an idea of the job, where it stands among those who take it seriously, and a direction to take it in.
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 Leviathan.Stamos
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By Leviathan.Stamos 2017-10-16 12:55:28
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They are just saying if you have two equally geared players fully paying attention, the BLU will beat the NIN because NIN's WS are worse than BLUs. No getting around that.
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