Where Does Puppetmaster Currently Stand?

All it's going to take to 'reasonably' fix PUP for melee setups is for Pummel, Smite, Howling and Raging Fists to all get buffed. Hand-to-Hand damage is actually good if you're only looking at melee auto-attacks, it's when WS's get thrown into the mix that things get unbalanced.

I'd say Epeolatry anyway. KKK isn't as useful, especially since having more MA when Haste capped actually hurts you.

IIRC Kenkonken's MA is special and does not impact tp return. unless that has been changed, :( or i am crazy i cant find where i got that info from now

its always worked as normal MA, it just never matered til round 95~ cap came around.

and hey KKK has that amazing use in you not overloading, thats neat right? But really Epeo's the way to go as far as III, the additional hits help for VE's WS dmg and overall TP gain but epeo is just all around great, specially at III

:/ i couldn't find a post this old on bg that mentioned kenkonken but here is one from zam...which is apparently still around.

The Goods...Kinda

The thing about KKK is that it doesn't show its true benefit if you just consider the relatively unimpressive master DD. The real value is in providing AM3 OA2-3x to the master AND the puppet, and that's pretty obviously why the base damage was designed to be so low on afterglow 119. As our pets have gotten stronger and stronger with pet buffs, level+1, and some truly good gear... an OA2-3x puppet can be really significant.

Honestly, the master itself is almost a glorified "support" for the puppet, triggering that AM3 and letting the puppet pull the majority of the load (a reversal of where things used to be). That's a little bit of an exaggeration, as the master contribution from H2H and Pummel isn't nothing (you can really do some rapid fire Master->Puppet "self" SCs with AM3 up on both master and puppet)... but I think you understand the point I'm getting at.

That being said, even though KKK can allow you+pet to hang at the level of other competent RMEA DDs, if a bit lower (the heavier the player-focused buffs, the more advantage to other DDs), KKK is at best going to make you respectable but nothing amazingly special compared to other DD jobs. Does give you the flexibility to contribute if you are in one of those "any melee DD will do" situations though, and without even having to go change jobs if you were tanking (where I still use my PUP by far the most frequently).

However... if they ever do just straight up boost H2H damage that isn't just a MNK-specific buff, KKK PUP might become REALLY ridiculous. We're talking top tier DD if that ever happens, but obviously that's purely speculation. If S-E was smart about fixing MNK they would give MNK some job-specific buffs (traits, JA adjustments, etc.), because a simple H2H WS buff could get PUP seriously overpowered. I'm kinda hoping they aren't smart about it though :)


That really would be ideal in today's FFXI. The issue with AM3 is that, even in situations where you want to go "pet DD only" by using a relatively disposable puppet with the master standing back safe, you have to get in to fire off that 3k TP WS to get rolling.

Still, when you can manage to get AM3 up there's nothing better for the puppet DPS than Mythic aftermath.

Pup turns out the damage when automaton closes skillchains with 2x speedloaders and 2-3 fire maneuvers up.

Master is pretty much a skillchains opener for pet when it comes to do. If you can coordinate that with party,, which is not hard as long as ppl are willing.

(Outside perspective) Pup is pretty amazing, can hold hate exceptionally well. Only problem with Omen is hate resets on some of the NM's. Other than that, you will not peel hate off an automaton. Idr anytime with the exceptions of the resets that I ever pulled hate off Tramp (Stamos's)

IDK about all that... Even with Strobe x2, Optic Fiber x2, and 2-3 Fire Manevuers it can still be rough holding hate off very strong melees. Nukers/pets is pretty easy though.

That being said, we DID recently get better pet enmity options with Heyoka set and that alone might be enough to make it more reliable. I just bought my last three pieces for 5/5 NQ set today, so haven't had a ton of time to play with them yet.

I've been using a "normal" pet tanking set, but swapping into all my pet: enmity+ gear when I get close on the Strobe/Flash timers. Seems pretty effective. Lately we've been doing some Kyou with puppet main tank just eating the 10k move and a backup tank holding when I re-activate (and use enm+ set to get hate back ASAP), so getting some practice on that...


It's probably not a great idea to use KKK to tank mobs more serious than Apex/CP or fodder though. If it's something like an Omen NM or hard Ambuscade/Escha target, you're likely better off with a defense-oriented weapon. I use my DT/Meva Ohrmazd more often than I use my KKK, just because that's what PUP really shines at these days. KKK is more for fun in the rare case I play as a melee and I'm not using my NIN instead.

Really, you don't make Kenkonken for being "worth it" in the meta (which might change tomorrow, either making your weapon useless or amazing - and frankly, for PUP it's hard to see any possibility other than a significant DD buff if H2H ever gets adjusted). You do it because you really like PUP. It's the job's best DD weapon by a longshot - as long as you're using a DD puppet too - uniquely so, thanks to being the only RMEA that helps the puppet. It's also best pet-only DD weapon if you have the means to trigger AM3. It's just that PUP as DD is somewhat of a niche role even if played to its maximum potential.

Though, hey, to some extent you could say similar stuff about Epeolatry being something that isn't necessarily the best thing to use. If you're able to go all out for damage you're better off Lionheart, and it's not even that rare for Aettir to be better for tanking applications where Meva provides more value than Epeo's extra PDT.

But if you're into playing RUN, do RUN! If you like COR, Death Penalty is pretty damn great. If you like PUP, KKK does have it's niche. If I was dedicating myself to an RME for PUP though, KKK is clearly the choice over Vere or Godhands (unless you are capable of cranking out lots of Aeonics).

Yeah, I mean, if you don't subscribe to the philosophy of making an RME for the job you love mainly because you love the job and want the ultimate trophy, KKK might be a hard sell.

Me, I identified as a PUP "main" since 2006, always wanted one, finally got one. And it is the best PUP DD weapon, but to some extent it's still a bit of a toy as opposed to some magic wand that suddenly makes PUP a top tier DPS (it's still best in the niche of a super sturdy tank for single mobs without a lot of hate reset). It does allow PUP to at least be respectable as a melee, but that's perhaps not what you're going for with the hefty investment.

Honestly though, I think there is more to be discovered with the complexity of balancing master and puppet, and in the current game I'm tempted to further lean on the puppet side of the equation and enhance that even more with AM3. I'd urge people to take a reeeeealy close look at KKK if we ever get substantial H2H buffs though (in particular, a strong WS buff) - the potential to move up to top tier DPS level is there if S-E ever does something for H2H across the board as a response to the frequent "FIX MNK" cries...

I think you should play what you want,
I main THF and BRD.
I like playing thf more because i can DD and stuff so sometimes i just manage to play vol2 VD or vol1 easy as thief and have some fun. other times i do vol1 normal+ on white mage or bard, but really regarding this months ambuscade vol1 easy+, should be really good for pup and mnk to join in because its undead fomors and i think all undead take increased damage from blunt (it would make sense anyway) so really i wouldnt mind doing ambuscade vol1 runs with you if you wanted however; sense its the campaign ive been keeping myself busy every other day or so doing Omen job card farms.. good luck, and get the ultimate weapon for your favorite job! to me thats the only way it makes sense

i really think MNK and PUP are underappreciated undead killers, so if you look hard enough for the content it exists.

If you are referring to blunt dmg bonuses I got some bad news for you. The problem is that's only for skeletons and corses and club users are better at it. Like if mnk/pup had access to judgment and better clubs they could probably do better dmg (at least ws dmg) with clubs lol. That's what the state of h2h is in these days

You wrote "Undead killers" but did you mean "Skeleton killers"?
Because I don't see what pro would MNK or PUP have over stuff like ghosts or the majority of undead monsters really.

To be fair, blunt bonuses extend to Naraka as well. That doesn't really change that fact that warrior is probably better at it, though.

This is straight up insane. There really isn't any meaningful bones content to go look for. Um... I guess go spam Belphegor forever and that's something? But that's a pretty lame niche.

Now, that ONE Ambuscade month with the corse, I was dominating parses with KKK PUP (all while also tanking it with my puppet, or setting it to add even more damage), and occasionally brought my MNK for similar fun. But that's so super niche, and as mentioned, WAR with clubs works just as well if not better for the same esoteric use. And nobody's not saying Club WAR is some generally viable DPS solution.

MNK is in a far worse spot than PUP though, because PUP can lean on the puppet's damage and basically 2x the weapon skills (master's somewhat mediocre H2H WS, and puppet WS... and extra SCs that come along with all of that). PUP also fills other niches like being an excellent tank on most single NM targets.

Unless/until H2H gets a buff, PUP would be best served to work on master+puppet setups for damage. KKK is the most viable overall damage option, and I think that will lean further on the puppet for best use these days.

Focusing on master only (including with Godhands/Vere) is just a worse MNK, and MNK is pretty much the unanimous choice for worst current DD job.

Focusing on puppet only also really limits your damage, because the master does add SOMETHING. Unless the reason is for safety in a pet party (particularly paired with COR pet buffs) and to keep the less disposable master out of dangerous AoE range.

Focusing on both, with more emphasis to the puppet, is really the best choice in 2017. Cap pet haste (easy with lots of great options now like Ambuscade cape, Klouskap, Heyoka set), stack some pet STP or acc where you can while maintaining adequate master acc and some multiattack, and go to town. Kenkonken enhances that immensely - the master TP gain is nice, but the huge benefit is puppet OA2-3x. So if you have KKK, can gear with even more puppet-focus when AM3 is up (and when building AM3, go all out for master TP generation to get AM3 up and running).

The downside there is that in a melee-friendly situation, there's a high likelihood of using player-focused buffs. BRD stuff, COR non-pet rolls, player-focused geomancy. The only stuff that helps your puppet are mob enfeebling effects (Distract, enemy targeted geomancy, etc.) and COR pet rolls. So, it's easier for most groups to just bring all strong non-pet melees and enhance them even more with buffs. Puppet has to either be more powerful than it already is to make up for that big loss, or H2H needs a buff so that master damage pulls more of the load. We'll see what happens on the H2H front...