What To Get, What To Forget

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What to get, what to forget
 Odin.Hecky
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By Odin.Hecky 2016-07-29 04:10:28
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Heya.
As a recently returned player its been a jungle of stuff to figure out. Im still playing catch up, and there are still stuff i am yet to even look into. I been reading some of these guides here, and are getting a pretty good indication of things, but still im strugeling abit figuring out the bard stuff.

Currently, im newly dinged 99 and havent played bard since late 75 era. I never mained bard, and do not plan on doing it now eighter, but i want it to be good enough to join events and stuff.

So i have a few questions, number one being what gear to wear? For the time being ill get the JSE hard, jallarhorn and mythic will not be first prio. what AF and relic should i push to 109/119? I still havent tried Vagary, so emp 119 is currently not an option, but should i aim for the 109 still? I see they have song enhancment so i guess they would be good for macroing in. I have the NQ ambuscade set. which i guess is ok for landing debuffs atleast? I know alot of this is coverd in the above guide, but i still didnt grasp it all. Is there any gear i need from Escha? I am also at a loss when it comes to what weapons i need?

I notice there is a term now, pre-cast, post-cast ect. I dont use windower, is this something that is requierd to preform well? Main reason i dont is i dont really know how to set it up, but i will try if that will make things better.

Then, at last! One of the reasons i wanna get bard up and running is that i only have DRG geard at the moment and i wanna be able to join in on more stuff. Since i played bard before i would like to do so again since its familiar and atleast used to be valued in groups. Now i dont know? All i ever see is COR and GEO, are bards still needed for events and stuff? How is a good way to get job points, and how many is *mandatory* befor i can start doing events? Im not thinking about the hard core stuff, but story mission II's, Vagary, Unity NMs ect ect
 Cerberus.Jiko
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By Cerberus.Jiko 2016-07-29 04:24:46
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Not many people use a bard anymore, so if you're just coming back, geo would be your best bet to get into parties and actually start accumulating gear. 900 combined skill is what you're aiming for on Geo.

Job points depends on the job. If you're on Geo, you're get JP like nobodies business in apex parties. If youre a drg... you're soloing Escha/Rei.

I can't comment on the rest since it's all questions geared towards a knowledgeable bard.
 Shiva.Shruiken
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By Shiva.Shruiken 2016-07-29 05:00:05
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Odin.Hecky said: »
All i ever see is COR and GEO, are bards still needed for events and stuff?

No, BRD currently has little-to-no use in the current era. It may become more useful with upcoming changes, but even then, BRD is a REM reliant job. If you're not passionate about it and obtaining Gjallarhorn, Daurdabla, Carnwenhan and Marsyas are not priorities for you, then there's really no reason to play it.

I would play GEO instead. GEO is infinitely cheaper, will give you more bang for your buck, and it's much easier to play. All you really need is the JSE handbell Dunna and you'll already be more useful to a group than a fully equipped REM Bard.

To answer some of your other questions:
 Odin.Hecky
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By Odin.Hecky 2016-07-29 05:31:54
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I hear you, thanks for the replay. Obviously you are both right, since GEO is all people ever shout for. But I just find it strange that people dont value the fact that BRD can buff melee, Refresh mages, elegy (insane slow) the mob and Threondy for the magic burst. I mean, is GEO really that powerful, that all these things fall short? My GEO is 1 and i havent really understood how it work yet, so im honestly asking :)
 Bahamut.Vinedrius
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By Bahamut.Vinedrius 2016-07-29 05:47:52
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Odin.Hecky said: »
I hear you, thanks for the replay. Obviously you are both right, since GEO is all people ever shout for. But I just find it strange that people dont value the fact that BRD can buff melee, Refresh mages, elegy (insane slow) the mob and Threondy for the magic burst. I mean, is GEO really that powerful, that all these things fall short? My GEO is 1 and i havent really understood how it work yet, so im honestly asking :)

Yes, GEO is really that powerful :/ Very potent percentage-based and irresistible/undispellable buffs/debuffs pushes GEO miles away from BRD with mostly static buffs and hardly any debuffs. BRD is still used however, mostly for the highest tier end game to hold the adds with lullaby.

Edit:

Example 1: The most haste a BRD can provide (excluding Aeonic) is 31.25% with 2 marches (or ~28% without ghorn), whereas GEO can provide 35.4% haste only with Dunna and a single buff (excluding JAs for both).

Example 2: The most attack a BRD can provide (excluding Aeonic) is +217 (or 205 without ghorn) with 3 minuets, whereas a GEO attack buff provides +48.2% attack only with Dunna and a single buff (excluding JAs for both). The difference is just insane.

GEO is not only superior at support, but also simpler to play and cheaper to gear up, unless you spend numerous stones to augment Reisenjima gear for a nuke/MB set. Additionally, in low men setups, GEO can also contribute by nuking/MBing.

BRD still has uses and is still as versatile as before but now it can't just compete against GEO as a support class. However, the devs fail to see that BRD needs serious attention.
 Cerberus.Jiko
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By Cerberus.Jiko 2016-07-29 05:55:01
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Bahamut.Vinedrius said: »
Odin.Hecky said: »
I hear you, thanks for the replay. Obviously you are both right, since GEO is all people ever shout for. But I just find it strange that people dont value the fact that BRD can buff melee, Refresh mages, elegy (insane slow) the mob and Threondy for the magic burst. I mean, is GEO really that powerful, that all these things fall short? My GEO is 1 and i havent really understood how it work yet, so im honestly asking :)

Yes, GEO is really that powerful :/ Very potent percentage based and irresistible buffs/debuffs pushes GEO miles away from BRD with mostly static buffs and hardly any debuffs. BRD is still used however, mostly for the highest tier end game to hold the adds with lullaby.

And from what I hear, pre popping Rei NMs. SV songs, drop party, party kills. Not sure what songs besides ballad would be useful here since nobody melees high tier content...
 Bahamut.Vinedrius
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By Bahamut.Vinedrius 2016-07-29 06:25:55
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Cerberus.Jiko said: »
Bahamut.Vinedrius said: »
Odin.Hecky said: »
I hear you, thanks for the replay. Obviously you are both right, since GEO is all people ever shout for. But I just find it strange that people dont value the fact that BRD can buff melee, Refresh mages, elegy (insane slow) the mob and Threondy for the magic burst. I mean, is GEO really that powerful, that all these things fall short? My GEO is 1 and i havent really understood how it work yet, so im honestly asking :)

Yes, GEO is really that powerful :/ Very potent percentage based and irresistible buffs/debuffs pushes GEO miles away from BRD with mostly static buffs and hardly any debuffs. BRD is still used however, mostly for the highest tier end game to hold the adds with lullaby.

And from what I hear, pre popping Rei NMs. SV songs, drop party, party kills. Not sure what songs besides ballad would be useful here since nobody melees high tier content...

Yeah, that is one adventage of how BRD buffs work (despite that is actually abusing the battle system), but ethics aside, that means someone has to bring a pocket BRD or someone to only buff and drop and do nothing else. I wouldn't want to treat any party member like that or the party may not have anyone who can bring a pocket BRD.
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2016-07-29 07:34:39
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Cerberus.Jiko said: »
And from what I hear, pre popping Rei NMs. SV songs, drop party, party kills. Not sure what songs besides ballad would be useful here since nobody melees high tier content...
INT etude x2, March2 and Ballad3 can still be useful to prebuff a BLM pt.
Or give some minne to Tank.
Granted it's some very very marginal benefit, but it can speedup kills a bit for the first 10 minutes while songs last

It's tipically used like Vinedrius said. Prebuff from a mule.
Only fights where I've seen a real BRD player deployed are Albumen and Vinipata (and even there, most "pro" players just dualbox their BRD mule)
 Bahamut.Tychefm
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By Bahamut.Tychefm 2016-07-29 07:57:21
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Quote:
INT etude x2

This one is really underrated. Too bad it's mostly from prebuff slave like you said.
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By eliroo 2016-07-29 08:21:32
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Odin.Hecky said: »
I hear you, thanks for the replay. Obviously you are both right, since GEO is all people ever shout for. But I just find it strange that people dont value the fact that BRD can buff melee, Refresh mages, elegy (insane slow) the mob and Threondy for the magic burst. I mean, is GEO really that powerful, that all these things fall short? My GEO is 1 and i havent really understood how it work yet, so im honestly asking :)

GEO can bolster Melee's much better in terms of DPS since they can Raise attack and lower defense. Cor can also boost attack an insane amount, I think at max 66% Attack boost with Crooked + Chaos 11. Unless the 20% takes place before bonus in which case it would be 52% attack boost. Cor also gets a STP buff and given how high Multi-attack %s are it is really strong.

Refresh is a little moot now as most mages have a ton of Refresh Idle gear and have other means of restoring mp like Myrkr.

Threnody is still probably really good but a lot of People use RUN which can use Rayke for a similar effect.

One of the big things about GEO is how insanely potent VEX + Attunement are (Magic Accuracy down and Magic evasion up). I duo'ed Hades at first with a COR/DNC and while damaging the boss wasn't hard it kept spamming huge damage AoEs. Everyone was yellow-red HP at all times. We lost because our trust healer ran out of mp. We switched it up to BLU/GEO with geo using Vex-Attune. I don't think the whm trust had to use a heal once the AoE damage became extremely negligible.
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By Verda 2016-07-29 10:11:34
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Cerberus.Jiko said: »
Not many people use a bard anymore
That's true.

Shiva.Shruiken said: »
No, BRD currently has little-to-no use in the current era.
That isn't true.

This should always be mentioned about BRD because it is how it is actually used these days:
BRD is required for 2 of the 7 t4 Reisenjima fight and the Tumult Curator fight as well as many VD Intense Ambuscade. Lullaby can get ridiculous sleep duration and is the best crowd control the game offers not by a little bit, but you're talking 1:30 sleep II vs 7:30 lullaby from a maxed out brd using 1 hour. BRD also has a huge amount of innate magic acc due to their combined singing and instrument skill, making their sleeps also the most accurate in the game. It is actually hard to find a ghorn and mythic brd to assist with those kills, and makes it far easier if you do. On albumen the mage ballads too also help with the first 4 mins of the fight while the blm mana wall tanks the adds.

This is my own experiences with BRD and how I have used it a lot, to farm two mythics and more:
Other than that though, BRD I have found has many personal uses, and I have for one never once used it as a sing buffs for everyone and drop strategy, and seen it done rarely. A good BRD player friend of mine has helped me farm 2 mythics. He is a full stack bard, and he made farming skirmish way easier, and now bcnms. A GEO doesn't work well on skirmish, as players often split up. BRD songs last an incredibly long time on a well geared BRD, over 10 mins now. The DD can remain haste capped even splitting up, making farming it faster and easier. For BCNM, Scherzo is great for avatar fights, I've actually done just thf and brd to do avatars on VD, and lullaby is amazing for tenzen fights.

This is my opinion based on both endgame and personal experience with BRD:
People will cite accuracy and attack vs geo. Here's the thing with GEO, it gets 2.5 bubbles, only one will fulfill the benefit of full job abilities like blaze of glory, and the entrusted one doesn't even benefit from geomancy+. GEO also aren't as good for any type of mobile fighting because their strongest spells will have to be moved, and then their 10 min job ability is wasted to empower it.

GEO usefulness comes down to really 4 spells. Malaise, Frailty, Vex, and Attune. Even shattersoul with it's small amount of MDB down adds a ton to damage. There isn't a lot of MDB down in the game at all, and GEO gets a ton of it with Malaise. Players already have so much MAB that when you lower MDB it has a profound effect on magical damage, so it just scales well, much better than Acumen or MAB buffs do. Frailty is much the same way, the difference is with Frailty there is a lot of def down spells in the game already. An abrasion bolt + dia III from a trust is actually more def down than a NQ GEO frailty. Bad GEO will usually only cast frailty without blaze of glory though, and many don't even have capped skill so you might not see the full benefit of it, but with Idris and a competent player that uses their JA, it can nearly floor mob defense making it the only def down you need with dia II they can cast from a subjob. Vex and Attune make you nearly immune to magical damage and status effects, so it's just sort of ridiculous. Unlike Scherzo from bard though, it eats up all the spells a geo can offer and means an entire party slot, and also doesn't help against physical one shot moves. Other GEO spells are useful, they all are. But these are what define and keep geo around, MAB bonus isn't as potent and in lesser amounts than some jobs can offer. Languor is great in that it is unresistable, but BRD can do more for magic accuracy.

This is what BRD should be recognized for:
The hidden never used or rarely explored aspect of BRD is what it can do for party magic accuracy. Since this can usually be met with just languor and focus, or even just languor, it's not really explored. Threnody II though is a massive 180 magic evasion down, to one element. An Idris GEO magic evasion down is 100, and normal quality GEO is 50, 75 with Dunna. So think about that for a second, a bolstered NQ GEO doing focus + languor will give 300 magic accuracy to the party and an Idris will be 400. A soul voiced bard can give 360 magic accuracy to the party, for an element of choice and stack etudes for more magic acc (64 int so 64 magic acc vs hard targets). No one is using Threnody II though, one reason why is people compare it to Rayke from a RUN. RUN Rayke however will always add damage even if magic accuracy is capped, this is because it affects the mob family and special resistance fields. Try doing fire on a toad, with capped magic accuracy. Your damage will be much less than you expect. Then have a RUN Rayke, your damage will be as if it wasn't a toad at all but any mob that isn't strong vs magic. Threnody affects magic accuracy, not special resistances like Rayke, so if you have a BRD use threnody II, and you notice no difference in damage, that's because you're doing the equivalent of having a BRD sing madrigals after your melee accuracy is already capped. The nice thing about GEO languor and focus is it doesn't have to land first, it can't be resisted. However with INT songs and Threnody II both adding a ton to magic accuracy, BRD actually does more for elemental nuking accuracy than even an idris GEO, but you need to be able to land Threnody II first (luckily BRD does get some of the most magic acc in the game from combined skill).

GEO attack buffs are often cited as being % based and BRD are flat. By default, in peoples minds, this means GEO wins or because of the frailty argument. One thing never touched though, is BRD attack songs add to your base attack before % modifiers are applied. So with Minuets, you're making chaos roll, berserk, velocity shot, last resort, indi-fury etc all stronger as well as adding a host of base attack, so it not only rides base but makes % abilities better too.

BRD buffs, like COR and GEO also stack uniquely meaning if you want to really gun for a certain stats, you're going to need to combine them. This is not something most jobs get, stat boosts, def downs, etc they all overwrite or fail to have an effect unless your buffs are unique such as rolls, songs and geo spells, so if you want to say hit very high acc numbers on a DD, you'll want a BRD and GEO and COR, and cover GEO evasion down and either feint or distract III since they do not stack (because they are generic evasion down, and only geo has job specific evasion down).

The last aspect of BRD though, is that people always compare 4 songs of a BRD to 2 spells of an idris GEO. BRD isn't just singing 4 songs though, they're singing anywhere from 8 to 15, assisting tanks, supports, and damage dealers at the same time BRD isn't limited to 2.5 bubbles like GEO so they should never be compared in that way. A BRD's power is cumulative, where as a GEO's power is all up front. This makes GEO's easier to understand, and strategize with, but BRD has a lot of power that goes unappreciated, especially for DD parties but mage parties too. I don't expect the communities outlook on BRD to change any time soon though. BRD has a lot of power though, and if like me you've ran with a really good BRD a long time and made truckloads of gil with them, you just have entirely different outlook on the job, and what it can do for your parties. I find it really odd no one even mentions its requirement for aeonic fights usually though, or how VD avatars were first beaten using EA+Scherzo strats and taking a BRD to one to farm beit boxes etc is still an amazing choice, or that the testing for threnody II has been out there for months and months and still no one catches on. I don't really give much stock to the communities opinions anymore though, my in game experience and what people say and repeat here just rarely line up so it leads to a major trust issue. Tyche and Vine are both awesome ls members, and Tyche gave me a lot of great advice and I give their opinions weight. If it's not one of the lullaby mobs we do sometimes have a brd prebuff the mages. I agree with tyche it's underrated to have INT songs (magic acc + spell base dmg). I'd like to see threnody used more often though, and seeing those used to save GEO bubbles and use them for something else if the BRD can keep threnody II on full time would actually be a net gain for the party, or stacked with focus+languor if magic acc is really an issue. It seems pretty easy to cap magic acc though with idris geo and magic bursts at least, so people have no reason to change and/or deal with threnody II maybe not landing even though it + etudes can be stronger than focus + languor and that a BRD doesn't stop at just 2 songs and one debuff.
[+]
 Asura.Longsnake
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By Asura.Longsnake 2016-07-29 10:42:36
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I just got the biggest Bard-on. Thanks, Verda!~
necroskull Necro Bump Detected! [49 days between previous and next post]
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By Quizzy 2016-09-15 23:35:11
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Asura.Longsnake said: »
I just got the biggest Bard-on. Thanks, Verda!~

I agree, thank you!

I'm a GEO main going through the grind to go full ARME BRD for versatility. This is a big help.
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2016-09-16 02:20:38
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Bahamut.Tychefm said: »
Quote:
INT etude x2

This one is really underrated. Too bad it's mostly from prebuff slave like you said.
I'm not sure it's underrated.
It doesn't really make that huge of a difference unless you soulvoice it.

I mean, it DOES make a difference, but it's quite marginal compared to the other mage-specific buffs you can get (Idris Languor, Idris Focus, Idris Acumen, Idris INT, Idris Malaise etc)
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By Asura.Sechs 2016-09-16 02:28:49
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Verda said: »
Shiva.Shruiken said: »
No, BRD currently has little-to-no use in the current era.
That isn't true.
That's sadly very true instead.
BRD is hardly needed in end game content these days and when it (2 fights out of 9) it's because of NiTro Lullabies, which is quite a depressing scenarios for people who have been maining BRD in the past decade.
There is hardly anything than BRD can do that other buff jobs can't do better, except maybe the intrinsic versatility of BRD buffs, which are a bane and a bliss at the same time.

Quote:
It seems pretty easy to cap magic acc though with idris geo and magic bursts at least, so people have no reason to change and/or deal with threnody II maybe not landing even though it + etudes can be stronger than focus + languor and that a BRD doesn't stop at just 2 songs and one debuff.
Wut?
Threnodies are depressingly weak, even a dunna languor is better lol, and let's not even get within the Frazzle3 territory.

Likewise for INT.
TWO etudes with Gjallarhorn (relic horn!) give INT+32.
Entrusted Indi-INT is INT+25
Dunna (normal bell) Indi-INT is INT+35
Idris Indi-INT is INT+45
And let's not forget how BRD buffs can be dispelled anytime, and that BRD debuffs can be 1) dispelled, 2) resisted.

Now compare that to GEO and let's talk again :D


If BRD gets hardly used in end content nowadays it's not because of a global conspiracy by the BRD-haters lobby, but because 99% of the time other support jobs can perform better.
If it weren't for the lullabies you'd see BRD used in ZERO NMs out of 9.
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By Pantafernando 2016-09-16 04:49:33
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I was wondering about brd usefulness while doing my depressing 1400 kills with mordant rime, just for a QoL upgrade of 2-3 mins song duration or macc dagger.

I decided to just get that work done, and think nothing else.
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By Lakshmi.Konvict 2016-09-16 06:08:17
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Don't listen to these people. BRD with Aeonic, Daurdabla, G Horn and Carn is just as powerful. Watch these YouTube vids coming out doing Reis Helm NMS DD style, all have a BRD. Considering they have all the weapon/instruments I said and are top geared/job master but yea. If someone offered me a trade another Idris GEO for my pocket BRD mule would say no. Also, if you want to clear any master trial, or intense ambuscade D and plus, or Tumult Curator, you need a BRD. BRD is so clutch and underrated. Don't be fooled, but you must have the weapons stated above and be master to be relevant. For anything DD event in the game now you need a BRD for smooth sailing. BRD can cap haste with 1 March spell and the spell haste2/1 (depending on SV) then can keep up Attunement with Idris which makes everything a joke. Yes GEOs are better for magic setups but you can literally melee burn almost everything in the game now minus maybe 2 or 3 Helm NMS if that. But if you aren't a 5 boxer like me and just play 1 character, GEO is a better job choice because it is faster to gear up and you don't need an Idris to become relevant.
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2016-09-16 07:16:35
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Lakshmi.Konvict said: »
Don't listen to these people. BRD with Aeonic, Daurdabla, G Horn and Carn is just as powerful.
Just as powerful as what, exactely?

I'm certainly not claiming to be the absolute voice of truth when it comes to BRD but I'm pretty confident I do speak with a certain level of knowledge and experience.


But it's true BRD utility, while second to GEO, is bound strictly with the "wanted" aspect of melees, just like it becomes evident from your words.
In a scenario where melees become wanted once again for end game (we're nowhere that close atm, but we're somehow slowly getting there it seems) then of course BRD will get its relevant spot once more.


This has little to do with the amount of effort a BRD requires and how powerful it can be compared to other support jobs though, because that has nothing to do with melees being wanted and, alas, it's still in a pretty unbalanced situation atm.
 Lakshmi.Konvict
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By Lakshmi.Konvict 2016-09-16 09:34:21
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Lakshmi.Konvict said: »
Don't listen to these people. BRD with Aeonic, Daurdabla, G Horn and Carn is just as powerful.
Just as powerful as what, exactely?

I'm certainly not claiming to be the absolute voice of truth when it comes to BRD but I'm pretty confident I do speak with a certain level of knowledge and experience.


But it's true BRD utility, while second to GEO, is bound strictly with the "wanted" aspect of melees, just like it becomes evident from your words.
In a scenario where melees become wanted once again for end game (we're nowhere that close atm, but we're somehow slowly getting there it seems) then of course BRD will get its relevant spot once more.


This has little to do with the amount of effort a BRD requires and how powerful it can be compared to other support jobs though, because that has nothing to do with melees being wanted and, alas, it's still in a pretty unbalanced situation atm.
I don't know how you do aeonic nms but almost every nm can be done melee. And you can't do master trials with nuke setup, also TC. Dd parties are back.
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