The 6th Ministry's Secret: A Summoner's Guide (v2)

Keep in mind this is a thought experiment rather than proof but:

According to Papesse's test, volt strike has about 14k a hit volt strike with BP DMG+153% with pDIF capped. pDIF for avatars caps at 4.2 and criticals add 1 to pdif but do not break the cap.

Given this information, to find how much bp damage adds and ignoring everything elses contributions to the equation to just get a "weight" you'd do:
BP Damage * 4.2 * base damage = 14,000

Then solve for base damage:
base damage = 14,000 / (4.2 * 2.53)
base damage = 14,000 / 10.626
base damage = 1,317

this base damage is determined by lots of things, ws mods, and who knows what else but for the purpose of our question how much DA is worth how much bp damage we will show that 100 DA will for volt strike add 1 hit to 3 making it's 4/3 = 1.33 or a 33% damage increase. This means 10 DA would add a 3.3% average damage increase.

1,317 * BP damage * 4.2 * (1 + DA Rate *.33) = final damage

Lets just plug in a few numbers:
10 DA 138 BP damage for convoker's +3 hands replacing merlinic hands in a full buff situation:
1,317 * 2.38 * 4.2 * (1 + .1 * .33) =
1,317 * 9.996 * 1.033 = 13,599

So changing 15 bp damage for 10 DA became a loss of 401 damage.

What about one helios might have an advantage in like apogee +1 head vs helios head for 10 bp dmg vs 7 bp dmg with 8 DA:

1,317 * 2.46 * 4.2 * (1 + .08 * .33) =
1,317 * 10.332 * 1.0264 = 13,966 so helios would lose by about 44 damage.

We can also devise a weight system for volt strike, though it will shift just like BP damage and MAB do for magic pacts. Basically though due to how BP damage applies to every hit (or at least we're assuming it does) instead of just the first hit like WS damage does, and how a successful double attack proc adds one hit to an already 3 hit blood pact making it's maximum contribution at 100% Double Attack go from 3/3 to 4/3 so 33%, 1 bp damage ends up being more or less worth about 3% double attack for average damage. This is a really bad conversion rate and it just gets worse with rush which is a 5 hit bp.

So unless it can be shown BP damage doesn't apply to all hits or something, then Helios is left far far behind.

Interestingly using this same weight system, AM3 on nirvana would add he following:
40% double attack and 20% triple attack. For a very rough conversion you could multiply double attack by .33 and triple attack by 5/3 or .66 this would lead am3 to adding:
1 + .4 * .33 + .2 * .66 = 1 + .132 + .132 = 1.264 or about 26 bp damage worth of average damage which is an insane amount.

Conclusion is that AM3 rules and Helios loses by a bit to apogee +1 (at least the head piece tested), at least for a pdif capped situation. Due to how crit works for avatars, it's harder to say for enticer's other than if you are at capped PDIF where crit rate does exactly nothing for Volt Strike because crits will increase damage by exactly nothing, Apogee +1 are for sure better. But if PDIF is not capped, it's really hard to say and due to the crit rate bonuses and more crit rate bonus from the tp bonus enticer's could very well win at lower pdif values.

Given too that Double attack will devalue AM3, I don't really see any reason to get helios.

Disclaimer repeat: this is a thought experiment, since all values for all equations aren't known I wouldn't treat it as more than that still, I'll use this to make my own gearing decision choices until something like complete models for bp's damage comes along and I kindly submit this for peer review.

Edit: fixing DA values for Helios as I looked at the wrong column on the wiki :<

Edit 2: fixed

Edit 3: revisiting above with the possibility of multi-hit procing twice would give .92 * .92 = .8464 chance 8% double attack wouldn't hit out of two chances, so .1536 chance it would.

1,317 * 2.46 * 4.2 * (1 + .1536 * .33) =
1,317 * 10.332 * 1.050688 = 14,296 would be a 296 damage average increase.

This makes it more interesting, though you'd have to also factor in am3 being devalued by 8% too, which takes 1.264 * .92 = 1.16104 which is probably a greater loss if you are a Nirvana owner as 14,000 * 1.264 = 17,967 and 14,296 * 1.16104 = 16,598 (and the contribution of am3 if oat multihit can proc up to 2x would actually be even more so that's low balling the difference).

So then you get into different sets for nirvana vs non nirvana owners, but you have to ask the question of does it actually behave like this. To answer that question you'd want to know if your tp return was ever even once above 5 hits or the damage is above 5 hits with am3 active or ever above 4 with just DA. For am3 at least, I can say no, I've never seen that but it'd be interesting to know for certain.

I think one take away is that helios with bp dmg 7 and da 8 for some pieces definitely closes the gap some on apogee +1 for volt strike so it's good if you already have it laying around or are starting out on smn and wish to invest in a helios set. I'd still stick with +1 apogee if you have it though especially if you have nirvana and intend to use AM3. Also I didn't compare the legs which come with bp damage but apogee legs also have DA and tons of bp damage as well as STR so I don't think it's one that needs compared except with enticer's at lower pdif.

I don't know how Summoner BPs work but for physical weaponskills isn't it possible for each hit to DA up to a max of 8 total hits per WS? So if it's a 3hit WS, and you had 100% DA - it would hit 6 times?

Hmm, that's a fair point, I'm not sure if they do that either but will add the possibility in. I do know that at least prior testing showed it seems multi hit (even for 1h or dualwield) for melee players can proc a max of 2 times so I'll model it like that.

Use this:

Just replace HQ abj with NQ abj or helios bp dmg 7 double attack 8 and hq rings, grip and satchet with nq and mythic with a well augmented grio with bp damage 8-10 and pet attack/accuracy.

ItemSet 347698

Of course the new gear isn't on here at all but that's what you requested, but you'd want to have the +3 body, and the new earring and neck Shulmanu collar and Lugalbanda earring if you can get them too.




or you could make a table called ramuhRagePacts and follow the ifrit example. You probably missed some syntax if you got that error.

Hello


Can anyone post some Garland of Bliss Sets please?

My group (and LS) has been highly active with Omen since its release. I have this earring and it does rock but the NM that it comes from (Kei) can be a douche.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the earring is inaccessible, but the set up needed to defeat Kei seems to be pretty specific - at least for now - and it's not something a PUG (or even experienced group) will bring down easily.

Keep at it, though!

So, I want to take some dust off my SMN gear.
Consider I'm not a SMN main and alas I rarely get the lucky chance to be on the job, so my standards aren't really... particularly high let's say. Most of the time I'm more striving for the inventorysaving compromise than the BiS option.
Now, take the guns down please! D:
I'm still interested in getting feedback on a couple of things.

Which piece should I am to on Head and Feet? Atm I still use Helios for all of my offensive BPs
Augments are close to cap on feet (BP7, DA+8, Mab +22) and pretty meh on head (BP+5, Crit+2, Mab+19).

I can see three options:
1) Try to get perf augs on Helios
2) Try to get cool augs on Merlinic
3) Get Apogee (for head I could probably afford HQ, feet is too expensive. Already have an NQ feet I use for SMN skill)

My hunch kinda leads me towards Apogee, but I read the paradygms kinda changed with DA/Crit stat after the latest patch to BPs who are now affected by TP.
Sooo... what should I do?


Also I want to replace my Keraunos (BP+9, Crit/DA+4, Attack+22).
I assume the best choice to replace it for me would be Grioavolr, right? Which stones should I use to turn Grio into a physical BP staff? At which treshold would it become better than my Keraunos?

Hqing a single piece of apogee is meh. Go for merlinic for magic, atk/bpd/da helios for phys.

Body use af 119. Hands merlinic. Legs enticers. Feet apogee.

Going just NQ apogee everything and changing path if you have to do physical or magical isn't a bad choice either most party setups will do one or the other rather than switch between them, it's what I did for a long time and worked good for me and it definitely has maximum savings on inventory. Enticer's are good too for several pacts both physical and magical. The augmented options tend to be very annoying/time consuming to beat NQ apogee and I'm not a fan of investing a lot into non BiS gear so that's my advice. But Frod's advice isn't bad either, can do whatever you like really :D Merlinc hands are boos mode though... get those. If you really wanted to save gear just do like:

Physical:
head: apogee
body: convoker's
hands: merlinc bp damage
legs: enticer's or apogee
feet: apogee

Magical
head:apogee
body:apogee
hands:merlinic bp damage
legs:enticer's or apogee
feet:apogee

Then change paths depending on need. You will probably get more out of max aug merlinic but good luck getting close to that I assume 80% augment strength is the best I'll ever get, in which case it's basically tied with apogee nq. For physical, helios DA + BP dmg + attack or acc is very attractive but is a lot of gil for non BiS gear.

Anyway that's my opinion, I don't really disagree with frod either. It just comes down to how much you're willing to spend on non BiS stuff.

Thanks for not raising your guns at me! :D
And thanks for sharing your thoughts, it's what I was looking for.
A few more points now:

1) Frod why are you saying Apogee is not a good inventory-saving-compromise for both Magical and Physical? It seems to me path C, especially on HQ Apogee, is an excellent compromise? Of course it's not BiS, but that's what a compromise is! :D

2) I see you guys suggesting AF body (which I own), but aside form the new reforged +2 and +3, why are you suggesting it over, say, AF3+1? It's just 1% BP damage, and ~14 accuracy difference. In most situations I'd rather take the ~14 acc than 1% damage. Plus I use the body for Skill sets too, so it's kinda inventory saving once again.

3) Also you guys didn't answer my Grioavolr question! I guess it's harder to answer that. But I'm really wondering at which threshold, which stats should I be looking for on a Grio to make it noticeably better than my current lolKeraunos (stats posted above)



All in all I'm kinda leaning to go for HQ Apogee on head since I can afford it, and then path C to use it pretty much on everything.
On Feet uh... my Helios have good stats, I would just have to reforge the mab into attack and it would be an excellent Physical Piece.
At which point I could just get another NQ Apogee and go path A, I guess?

Also, am I the only one feeling sour for Gridarvor's augmented stats? Acc+95, Att+70, DA+15, Haste+5... Kinda wish Nirvana had those stats as well :( Or similar at least.

(I'm not saying Gridarvor is better OF COURSE, just that it leaves a sour taste in my mouth)

We only post best in slot stuff to know what our end goals should be we never had anything against people playing to their interests or gear level :D never saw anyone else be that way either sorry if we gave off that impression >.<

You can use the af3+1 body, but keep in mind some of us SMN have paid millions for 1 bp dmg so we tend to optimize it where we can. Torpor or drachen or using acc foods can help but to be honest the only level of mobs it starts to matter for acc with a nirvana at least is like CL 135 and with the newer gear might not matter even then but af3+1 is a good choice for saving inventory for sure.

For Grio, your Keraunos is really good might even beat it for volt strike. For magical though grio is way better it just has the same bp damage and more mab/magic acc.

The really nice thing about the feet for physical is they have an extra boost to bp damage over other pieces because they get 1-2 natively on top of the augment.

Gridarvor's stats look really good all bunched up like that. But they don't really perform well for blood pacts due to a lack of bp damage or magic attack bonus. It's a nice perp staff though and you get a lot of those attribute/stat boosts with nirvana level +2.

Nirvana does have those stats. +2 levels gives 74 acc, and 69 atk (a slight increase due to other gear with pet level+)

aftermath 3 is a high rate of DA/TA for pet and easy to proc for escha.



For grio you'd have to hit a high BPD and ATK together. Keraunos is probably good for now and hard to beat, though if you are legit serious about phys pacts, Nirvana is just leagues ahead.

Grio is alot easier to make a better/best magic damage staff.

I think Gridarvor for Physical BP is being underrated for a relatively new 119 SMN. My damage output has increased dramatically since I swapped to it from a 10BP Keraunos. So far, my SMN has been doing some Ambuscade (Normal Intense, VD #2) and a few Ruann T2s and Reisenjima T1s. It's performing well, so I'd say that's about the appropriate level where I should be atm.

Between JP and Gifts, Master SMN have over 100 Pet Accuracy and Attack added. HQ Gears vs NQ adds more, and the 2 extra levels from Nirvana add more. At some point what Gridarvor has simply isn't needed, and it makes sense to use what can cap your damage at a higher level. But newer SMN aren't ACC capped on anything worthwhile, and aren't ATT capped on anything worthwhile. Landing each hit of the multihits is imperative for the physical BP output. Gridarvor helps a ton and I think performs much better early on in a SMNs career than it obviously will towards the end of the growth road.

Question: today I just got my Empy+1 head, and I am trying to figure out how exactly it helps favor and lowers recast. But even after letting it sit for a few mins, it really doesn't seem to be dropping my BP timer much if it all...like maybe 1 or 2 seconds. How exactly does Favor work in terms of the Favor Bonus from the helm and your SMN skill? Do I have to precast BP in it? Midcast too so it doesn't reset? And the SMN skill - at which point does it matter if the goal is more lowered recast than the specific buff itself? I don't think I have a good handle on this...wanna make sure I understand it.

Thanks!

The favor timer is tracked separately from your current max tier. Which is to say, you only need to swap in the horn for your BP timer set. The instant you swap it in, your favor will go up accordingly. And yes, it'll only reduce by a few seconds.

It's the same with summoning skill. Needs to be in your BP timer set, can be swapped out immediately after.

With ideal gear & job points, expect to have a BP timer between about 25 seconds for a fresh avatar down to 22 seconds for one that's been out for a while.

So and ideal BP recast set (with the -5 Gift) would be 15BP1, 10BP2, Beckoner's Horn +1, and then as much Summoning skill as you can add in all other slots...With as much skill also on the Recast reduction pieces if possible, like Glyphic Hands?

Yes that's exactly right. :)

Well, strictly speaking the gift is BP3 or something (doesn't contribute toward either of the 15s caps), so you just need some combination of BP1 and BP2 that adds up to 25.

Holy ***, finally
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/51854-Avatar-s-Favor-Bloodpact-delay

Just realized I haven't changed my SMN Merits in 2 years or more.

This topic recommends Avatar Physical Attack & Avatar Magical Attack - is that still the case even with recent changes?

If you're capped JP wise and in solid gear, stack both atk and matk, group two you'll swap frequently as they are needed.

If you aren't capped JP wise, and you don't have nirvana, you might consider macc/matk.

I would choose Avatar Physical Acc over Physical atk if you do events like Intense Ambuscade, TC, Master Trials, Omen and HELM NMs especially. Most NMs nowadays require to have around 1400 acc and over 1800 for Kirin/WoC/HELM NMs.

Trying to gear a few SMNs capable of damaging tumult curator effectively. Gil is a non-issue, I'd like to be ready within a day or two so I have time to farm it during the campaign, so time is a bit of one. Looking at:

ItemSet 348604

Is grioavolr better than espiritus for physical pacts? (May make nirvanas eventually, but probably don't have time to use excessive amounts of stones hoping for a perfect roll). Merlinic dastanas seem like an option with relatively few stones. Anything else I'm overlooking?

edit: linked wrong item set

Definitely go with merlinic hands try for an augment of 8-10 bp damage along with physical stats but even that much bp damage alone is great.

Grio same thing, go for 8-10 bp damage with relevant stats it will perform better. For physical pacts bp damage is #1 thing to shoot for in a full support situation.

my experience trying to get 8-10 MBD and relevant stats on BLM was spending thousands of stones and is obviously not a realistic short term goal

are pet augments more generous?

Are you asking about Gridarvor or Grioavolr?
Grio is totally better than Espiritus...
...if you can manage to get cool augments on it.
Espiritus is worse but it's guaranteed, if you have low time and multiple SMNs to equip, you might want to focus your time/resources on other stuff rather than spending days trying to augment multiple Grioavolrs.

Gridarvor on the other hand loses 3% BP and 15 STR, but gains 95 accuracy, 45 attack and 9% DA, over Espiritus.
DA seems to have quite a big impact on physical BPs now that there's a different formula for how additional hits and TP bonus are calculated.
I haven't mathed it out, but I wouldn't be surprised if, at least on some physical BPs, Gridarvor could manage to surpass Espiritus.
Gridarvor also offers a huge chunk of Accuracy. You might need that accuracy, or it might save you time from obtaining perfect acc augments in other slots.

Either way both are easy and fast to obtain as you wait for better options (like Grio or Nirvana).
Merlinic Dastanas are clearly better imho, even with average augments.
For the other slots if you have access to HQ Apogee for Head/Body/Legs/Feet they might be the best option, considering the set bonus.
If you instead will end up using NQ pieces, then Merlinic becomes relevant again for some slots (Head, Body, Feet maybe). For the legs slot Perfect Enticer's are a nice option as well, arguably better than NQ Apogee maybe. If you already have them in your inventory from past SR mules, do not ignore them.
Of course I'm not considering Omen reforged stuff since you said you only have a few days.
For the body slot I'm not sure if HQ Apogee is better than AF1+1 or AF3+1. Stand alone it's probably not, but given the set bonus maybe?

If you go Path B on all those HQ Apogee pieces though you might end up lacking accuracy for Tumult Curator, I'm not sure how much you need.
In which case again you might consider Gridarvor over Espiritus maybe?



Again, just dropped my two cents considering your very special request of "time constraints".

Not really but even if you got just the 8 - 10 bp damage alone it'd beat out espiritus in a full support situation. In about 250 stones you should see it a few times.

< 800 Fern, no trace of BP over 7% here :P
But maybe I should've used Pellucid or Taupe? I dunno, considering BP still caps at 10% max regardless of the stone you use. (Talking about Grio!)

I'm usually the exception to the rule when it comes to bad luck with augments though, I'm kind of the guy who compensates the balance of the universe for those people who get crazy augments in 10 stones XD



Think I got very lucky augs on Merlinic Hands (8% BP) with less than 20 stones. Spent around more 300ish stones on them (all Fern) and could never beat the augments I actually have.

I was asking about grioavolr, but I'd completely forgotten that Gridarvor was a thing. That actually seems like a great pick for this, since accuracy should be needed and a slight decrease in spike damage for consistancy shouldn't be a run breaker.

Already have all the HQ apogee and HQ accessories, just been lazy about actually finishing out the sets. So looks like I should be grabbing gridarvor, af119 body, and sinking my stone reserves into merlinic dastanas for now.

Very informative, thank you!

Most SMNs forget about that simply because most SMNs have Nirvana or a good augmented Grio, both are better.
But if we're talking Espi vs Grida, then it's a different matter. For a set like yours against Tumult Curator I would go Grida over Espi honestly, just like you said.

I'm not sure here. If it were NQ body sure, but HQ I dunno. If your pet's att ain't capped then HQ body will win thanks to the set bonus and the stats on it.
AF+1 vs AF3+1 it's basically 12% BP damage vs 11% BP damage + ~14 accuracy.
HQ Body is 10% BP and 35 attack. (that's including the set bonus).
Guess up to you and the buffs you're getting?

Well, got dual idris geo and will have cor buffs and light shotted dia as well. So, should have essentially max buffs(is there anything else smn generally uses as a buff? a rdm should be present, but idt distract sticks anyway)

definitely won't complain about having less gear to farm, but i'll eventually be gearing it out so having the af body is worthwhile for when i get to omen while the af3 body is just going to the storage slip if i get af+2