The 6th Ministry's Secret: A Summoner's Guide (v2)

Hi.

Im thinking in working my mule smn, so i would like opinions about how well smn does in high lv content, about its bp accuracy and average damage, if its viable to build a party with 2 avatar skillchaining, if it will have enough dps to beat those nm.

Thanks in advance.

What do you consider high level content? If its i145 Reisinjima stuff, you pretty much need max job points, gifts, food, alot of debuffing centered around magic damage and a skillchain just to do 20k dmg on a magic burst to those NMs. Not to mention their evasion is so ridiculous that you probably aren't landing any physical pacts reliably enough unless you went out of your way to make a phys pact acc set.

Kirin seems to be the sole exception to this imo. It's a fight that so far, I've only ever done as a SMN burn and all the debuffing and buffing is in your favor. Properly geared SMN will burst Wind Blade for 60-99k on Kirin's first phase. I do not recall damage from second phase, but I'm sure it wasn't as high as phase 1.

Anything below that content you can smash with 2 SMN as long as you have good gear, use food and have proper debuffing for the situation. Mobs with exploitable elemental weaknesses like Yilan and Palila you can easily do 50-60k bursts with decent gear and a GEO.

Thanks fo the answer.

Can you give me a more detailed explanation how to tackle those nm that drop the reisenjima augmentable gear (merlic, etc) or abjurations? Like gear, avatar, what BP and what buff/debuff i should aim for?

Thanks in advance.

New to ilvl SMN here. For merit blood pacts dmg, what's better blood pact dmg+ or pet MAB?

You want a mix of both.

Point for point they're almost exactly equal. They're both multipliers so they benefit each other. (Meaning whichever one you have less of will be the more valuable one to increase.)

MAB tends to come in much higher quantities than BP Damage, so in practice BP Damage ends up being significantly more valuable. The rule of thumb tends to be something like BPD+1 = Pet:MAB+4.

On important things, I have found that 1BPdmg≈10MAB.
On ***that no one gives anything about, it's much closer to your 1:4. But serious stuff, even just high level apex things, tends to skew closer to 1:10.

But aside from that "nitpick" at "comparative guestimation"...
There is 0 reason to ever not have MAB AND BPdmg in every slot for magic BPs.
Physical only cares about the BPdmg, and Ifrit's hybrids are up to what you can get your hands on, but magical ones should have both in all 5 slots+weapon.
(Though if you want a SCIENCE answer, then BPdmg>MAB because it is a hard % boost, as opposed to MAB's soft... But that's irrelevant as you shouldn't favor one or the other in magic BPs.)
Apogee NQ is pretty cheap (like all the 75 119 sets) so your only limit as a newbie is who you roll with and if they can get you those Abjurations.

Stupid note that nobody cares about, but apogee's -HP is quite annoying for yourself and for healers, especially if you idle in it or have 5/5 HQ >.>''

Altough I can't think of any fight where SMN is welcome and where there is AoE damage danger. We only use SMN for Kouryu and Erynis to be fair, but I'm pretty confident it's a viable option for many other fights.


With that said there are valid alternatives to NQ Apogee in pretty much all slots for (almost) every purpose, so there's that to consider.
But if you're an HQ Apogee SMN then you have no other option but stick to 4/5 because nothing will ever come close to that I'm afraid.

Aside from Helios what are some slot pieces that are something to go for, for a player gearing up before t1-t2's. Thank you in advance if you have the time to list them.

I'll try to give you some hard and fast pieces to shoot for (on a work break atm), others can be much more detailed, I'm sure.

Reforged:
Beckoner's Horn +1 (requires Vagary clear)
Convoker's Doublet +1
(All reforged pieces except Convoker's legs have situational uses and are worth the time if you have the time)

Unity:
Asterity Mitts +1
Lamassu Mitts +1
Assiduity Pants +1

Ambuscade:
Campestres's Cape (you'll want one with Pet: Acc/Atk and one with Pet: M.Acc/M.Dmg - other stats are situational)

I'm not sure where else you'll stand since you haven't posted what you already have. Do you have the relevant gear from Abyssea already? Magian Staves? AH staples?

I'll try to follow up again after I get off work.
-TA

So far I have the following Keraunos with Perp and Macc, Seraphi, Convoker chest, Helios with some good aug (far from perfect), and Assiduity Pants nq. I just came back to the game so I am sure I have a lot of work ahead. Thanks for the idea of were to start.

I'm not sure I follow. BPD & MAB both work exactly the same regardless of the enemy you're facing. They're both direct multipliers on damage done.

What do you mean "hard % boost" vs "soft"? They are both literally exactly the same. There is no difference between BPD & MAB in terms of magic BPs, except that they are separate multipliers otherwise you could literally add them together because they do the same thing.

Aw no way that's the best part! One of my friends has a cure bot they sometimes bring, and that poor guy casts Cure III on me every single time I do a Blood Pact. It makes me feel special!

Hey guys anyone mind post a updated smn gearswap

Nope! on higher tier stuff, especially Reisinjima t3/helm, you'll need to swap out at least head and body for well aug'd merlinic, just to have more macc.

Hagondes+1 feet are nice if you augment them during one of the "Arcane Glyphic +" campaigns.
Body+1 is still hot for Perp-5 AND refresh+2 if you're into that.
Then there's a couple of AF pieces which are inferior but still acceptable options. I seem to recall body for skill (which also converts to acc/macc for pet during BP) and BP DMG.
You also named Helios, which can be okaysh.
For legs there's also the Enticer pants from SR, with perf augs they're a decent options (for magic BP at low TP it's probably BiS after HQ Apogee)

Anything else? Oh yeah Merlinic hands but that's because I was taking those for granted.
Not sure if any other merlinic piece can produce nice results, I'm skeptic on that, would require way too much luck for my tastes.



I wasn't advocating AGAINST NQ Apogee btw, was just saying if someone wants to mix & match, there are some "okaysh" alternatives to NQ Apogee.
Of course for a returning player Apogee NQ would likely be the quickest thing to get, compared to the rest of what I talked about.

Actually Enticer's are BiS for magic BP. They should beat HQ Apogee unless your avatar has extremely high TP, like I'd wager 2800+.

Beat HQ Apogee even after factoring the set bonus one additional HQ items would bring?


Either way, the tl;dr of it all is that HQ Apogee rules, NQ apogee is likely the easiest/fastest option for returning players, the -HP is annoying (FU SE, srsly) and there ARE other pretty decent/valid options, but getting them will arguably require more time/dedication than just farming an NQ Apogee.

Yup even with the set bonus, and probably even on 5/5 merit pacts. I'd be curious if someone could do some testing though to confirm it, I'm like 0 out of 50 kajillion on Voodoo Slacks so I can't test it.

I did test them against perfect Helios Spats back in the day and Enticer's won by a huge margin, about 7-8% higher total damage if I remember correctly. On the other hand, I'd only expect Apogee Slacks +1 (including BPD+2 from set bonus) to be about 3% higher total damage than Helios Spats.

So my wager is that Enticer's Pants would parse about 4% higher than Apogee Slacks +1 if you have set bonus, and even higher without.

I made my own Voodoo so let me know if you want to keep trying on the slacks. I'm capped on Cloth.

Thanks! I appreciate the offer. I had a friend helping me craft but they've been M.I.A. lately so I may take you up on that. :)

I need advice on my BP sets.

ItemSet 342927

This is my magic set. Espiritus Path B, Apogee Path A except Legs Path D, Ambuscade cape with Pet Haste, Pet Macc/Mdmg, and Eva/MEva. Are there any better rings/waists available?

ItemSet 342928

My physical set. Espiritus Path D, Apogee Path B except Legs Path D, Ambuscade cape with Pet Haste, Pet Acc/Atk/Racc/Ratk, and Eva/MEva. Is NQ Apogee Body>Convoker's or is this good? Again, any better ring options>Evoker's?

Flaming Crush set is the same as the Magical BP set except it has Adoulin ring and Fervor Ring. For that set, would the physical or magical ambuscade be better?

For non-Mythic options, is Espiritus better than say Keraunos? Is it a huge difference? I want to minimize my inventory space. Fewer staves=better.

Speaker's Ring is a good one. Could use Caller's Sash for Pet:MAB but it's so weak that Incarnation tends to be the superior choice.

Also I'd suggest getting some Enticer's Pants from SR, their TP bonus is ridiculously good.

Lastly, Grioavolr can be made to beat Espiritus pretty solidly. With a good augment, it's like having an Espiritus that's both path A and path B combined. Shoot for an augment that has decent BP Dmg and Pet:MAB, ideally along with some Pet:INT and Pet:MAcc.

Grioavolr has an even greater edge over Espiritus here. It can roll up to 10 BP Damage, while Espiritus has only 3. The Pet:STR+15 and Pet:Atk+25 is nice, but Grioavolr can get that too along with Pet:Acc if you get a nice roll.

Otherwise it looks good.

Speaker's Ring replaces Fervor here, too. Thurandaut + Speaker's. Use the physical ambuscade cape for it, but other than than that, use the magical BP set as you mentioned. *Edit: Except using the Apogee Slacks instead of the Enticer's Pants that I recommended. As for staff, I'd probably use the Pet:MAB one over the Pet:Attack one.

As for Keraunos, it has a couple niche uses but it's mostly obsolete now.

I agree on everything but the Enticer's stuff Pergatory as usual solid advice :) I thought for certain though that the consensus on Enticer's was they are good for Merit pacts and Impact, and only if your TP isn't hitting 3k with the bonus. So for a fully merit'd pact, 1600 TP is base, if you're over 750 Pet TP is when Enticer's pants start to fall off, and if you're on Shiva and use crystal blessing it starts at 500 TP. For Impact it would start to fall off at 2350.

Here's Gutsu's testing posts with Enticers:

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/46440/the-6th-ministrys-secret-a-summoners-guide-v2/12/#2942977

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/46440/the-6th-ministrys-secret-a-summoners-guide-v2/13/#2943160

Things could change with vorseals or even other gear though :/ I'd be interested to see comparison tests if they are working that well for you, thank you for your time. I think apogee +1 should win out at least if the tp levels are right and on non merit pacts and not impact. Also has anyone tested the TP bonus gear for healing wards?

On another note, does anyone else think maybe Beckoner's doublet +1 is a bit stronger than convoker's +1 due to the accuracy from summoning magic skill (or at least use it for a mid acc set or something)?

Edit:updated links

Greetings Summoners!~

I am new to SMN coming from the land of the BST. (^-^)ゝ

I still love BST but I wanted to be able to join groups and stay out of range in some scenarios... I totally need practice of how to run in and get that ready move off safely!

I just figured SMN would be a good progression since I love pet classes and I thought it would be nice to have great magic dmg pet class too! o(^-^)o

My question is:
What order/priority should I use for job point categories?

I know I will eventually get them all, but which ones will give me the most benefit to give priority to first?

Currently I intend to begin with Mg Acc as a starting point.

Thank you in advance!

P.S. I did go through the entire thread and I have not discovered any job point list that determines peoples preferences much. I know we all have our own styles etc so I am interested to see more ideas so I can make my own plan~

I leveled both accuracies together first (damage doesn't matter if your hits aren't landing), then blood pact damage (straight percentage increase), then physical and magic damage together. However, depending on how you want to use summoner, the JPs for Astral Flow/Covenant provide a pretty big boost to NM solo-ability.

After that it's a matter of preference. If you magic burst a lot then leveling Mana Cede would be useful. I like to solo farm Reisenjima for JPs/stones so leveling Avatar's Favor helped my overall kill speed. Elemental Siphon obviously helps if you find your MP depleting too quickly.

Traitor, your kind isn't welcome here! Totally kidding, I hope you enjoy summoner :)

What TinyAttourney said is good to go with.

The only caveat is that the bp damage category isn't the same as bp damage on gear, it adds to base damage for all pacts instead. It's still a good category though just not as great as everyone thought it was gonna be. Personally Mana Cede and Siphon were my last 2, but no one will judge you for however you choose to do it (I'd least hope not).

Trollolololol.
You have NO IDEA the irony here right now.
Like.... I am beyond hysterically laughing at this conversation right now. The irony is just too much.
(Explanation: when 119 Nirvana first hit the scene it was literally me vs everyone else as to how much BPdmg it had. I said "it surely has 40 as it had 40 MAB and both are basically % boosts" which cascaded a mass of "ur so dumb MAB isn't a % boost" and "it's only 10 because empy body has 10".... But like soooooooo many other things in this game, *I* was the one vindicated.)
So as you can guess, as I'm now in the other side, the irony is pure troll gold.

However unlike those Dbags, I'm not gonna call you stupid or anything.

MAB is a "soft" % boost, as it is heavily affected by the target's MDB. Very little MDB is required to start severely gimping MAB returns. And outside of Bolster+Idris, there will never be a time (on NMs that matter) where the target's MDB is 0 (which since it's MAB/MDB) that's the only time you'll be getting a true % boost from MAB.

Math for illustration:
With 20 MAB and 20 BPdmg, if both were hard % boons, you'd have a 1.2•1.2x or 1.44x damage multiplier on magic BPs.
However, since MAB is a soft %, the target's MDB reduces the hard % boost that MAB modifies.
So let's say just 5 MDB, that would reduce it down to a 1.14x multiplier. (Equation: (100+MAB)/(100+MDB) )
Which would mean that actual magic damage multiplier would be: 1.14•1.2x or 1.37x magic BP damage.

That's what is meant by MAB being a soft % boost, while BPdmg is a hard %: +5% BPdmg is ALWAYS 1.05x damage, while 5 MAB is only 1.05x damage AT BEST.


EDIT:This is the exact opposite of what I got.
For a 1/5 (5/5 Apogee NQ was always better) they were only marginally better. Like, 50~150ish damage better on stuff that doesn't matter. (Tested on Rakaznar fomori and Ceizak mandies to get the feel for the MDB effect.)
All at 0 TP. But for 1500+ Apogee NQ always won... But by a slightly higher 200~250ish more.
And then, obviously, at 3000 Apogee was always ahead by a large margin.
(I ran through this when I got apogee pants, and wanted to know how they compared to my perfect SR pants I had been using up to that point. Tested again in an apex party with similar results.)

And HQ would be higher than a measly 4%. As it also has higher MAB. (I'm assuming your 4% is the Δ in the BPdmg from the NQ to the HQ.)

I'm not saying SR pants aren't a good option, they're just inferior for magic BPs (especially 5/5s) to Apogee.

2 / 1 = 2

3 / 1 = 3(a 50% boost)

2 / .5 = 4

3 / .5 = 6(a 50% boost)

MDB doesn't change how effective MAB is, it's always going to be the same relative gain.. but the amount of MAB you already have will make a large difference since adding the same amount of points to a higher total is a smaller relative gain

go home kid

FaeQueen this is the third or fourth time you come into this thread(s) arguing about the same thing and been told it's wrong by multiple parties just stop already. If you can't understand how order of operations works in math then fine but stop lashing out at everyone. If you'd even spend time with your own examples you'd see how it's wrong.

Extremely simple example 40 mab 50 bp damage:

1.4 * 1.5 = 2.1
Say mob has 30 mdb
(1.4/1.3) * 1.5 = 1.61
Which is the same as
1.4 * (1.5/1.3) = 1.61
Which is the same as
(1.4 * 1.5)/1.3 = 1.61

MDB affects the entire damage equation as long as the attack is magical. BP damage is more valuable only for the reasons pergatory said and other end game SMN have backed him up on this. What's not ok is to keep bringing it up and attacking people. There's no such thing as hard and soft the terms themselves gave him a double take b/c they don't make sense.

Others have already pointed out the flaws in your logic Fae, but I'll use your own example because like Verda said this isn't the first time we've had this discussion and it doesn't seem to be clicking for you.

Here's your example:


Ok so let's take your example of a mob with 5 MDB. That means if you have zero MAB and zero BP Dmg and hit for 10000 damage, the mob will take (100+0)/(100+5) = 95.23% or 9523 damage.

Now if you have 20 MAB and 20 BP Dmg like you said before, it will instead be 1.2 * (100+20)/(100+5) = 137.14% or 13714 damage.

Here's where the magic happens:
13714/9523 = 1.44

Which is to say, 20 BP Dmg and 20 MAB combined gave you an increase of 44% over what you would've done with no BPD/MAB. You could plug any amount of MDB into this equation, and it will always be 44% higher with 20 BP Dmg and 20 MAB.

Isn't that basically what I said?

I believe Enticer's will beat Apogee+1 for merit BPs unless your TP is very high.

Although I don't think Impact is affected by TP and so Enticer's wouldn't be good for that.