Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
What's middle class?
They belong in a museum.
Minimum Wage
Minimum Wage
They belong in a museum.
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Just like the dinosaurs and Katie Couric !
Is the middle class really shrinking?
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Is the middle class really shrinking?
Only if you soak it under water !
Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
What am I trying to explain away? It's part of the information provided by the OP. You seem content on accepting only the parts you want to believe while discarding the rest.
Closure due to increased costs is a reasonable explanation.
Closure due to a political protest is not a reasonable explanation.
The source article did not give any other explanations towards why these events were happening except what was reported to them: higher wages lead to losses which shut down the establishments in question.
Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
And where did you get the idea that closures are mostly relegated to less expensive establishments?
Quote:
Other major Capitol Hill additions from the last few months include Stateside, (Eric Johnson’s long-awaited French-Vietnamese outpost), Tallulah’s (Linda Derschang’s [of Smith and Oddfellows] casual neighborhood café) and Serious Pie Pike (Tom Douglas’s third location of his pizza joint, now open in the new Starbucks Roastery). Moreover, just this week on the Hill, we’ve got news of Lisa Nakamura opening the Gnocchi Bar in the Packard Building on 12th Avenue (formerly the Capitol Hill D’Ambrosio Gelateria Artigianale) at the end of March.
So tell us, do these not sound like restaurants who cater to exclusive clientele? Or are you just being obtuse again when it suits your needs?
Mind you, they probably all have increased prices to offset the increased costs, and if they survive, well good for them.
If not, well, chalk up more casualties for the sake of progress.
They sound classy? lol...
I'm not sure what article you were reading.
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
The source article did not give any other explanations towards why these events were happening
Quote:
A variety of things, probably—and a good chance there is more change to come.
First, some old-timers report they’re simply ready for a change.
First, some old-timers report they’re simply ready for a change.
Quote:
Next, even great-tasting restaurants battle tough odds—especially new ones. The National Restaurant Association doesn’t have exact failure rates for restaurants in their first few years, but media relations and public affairs director Christin Fernandez reports that according to census data, about 60,000 restaurants open and about 50,000 restaurants close in an average year.
Quote:
Last July Komo’s Naomi Tomky named location as its first of six reasons why “awesome restaurants close”—which Shanik chef-owner Meeru Dhalwala and Little Uncle proprietors Wiley Frank and Poncharee Kounpungchart have both told devotees is their main reason for shutting.
Quote:
In addition to location, Tomky cites that good restaurants also close because of overly good (and thus pricey) ingredients (“Farm-to-table stuff doesn’t often pay off,” she writes); strange menu items (foie gras, pig ear, etc.) that alienate some; too much concept or too little; poor atmosphere (too loud or too quiet, uncomfortable high French bistro seats, no purse hooks, etc.) and poor management (ranging “from the chef/owner who tries to do it all himself, to the one who doesn’t do enough and loses employee confidence (and effort).”)
Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
no purse hooks
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Raising minimum wage to 15 bucks and hour is stupid, minimum wage was made for teens saving for their first car or trying to pay for their new shoes every week, no for a 30 yr old to make a living off of, imo keep minimum wage the same and make the jacka$$ making a living off that go get a skill or some type of trade...
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Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Personally I think increasing the minimum wage is problematic and we need to find better ways of bringing people a living in general.
The problem isn't that these jobs pay too little, it's that these jobs shouldn't be counted on to earn a living at all.
But with too many people who have no skills and unskilled professions being unavailable to many for a variety of reasons...
Problematic. It's just problematic all over in so many facets.
The problem isn't that these jobs pay too little, it's that these jobs shouldn't be counted on to earn a living at all.
But with too many people who have no skills and unskilled professions being unavailable to many for a variety of reasons...
Problematic. It's just problematic all over in so many facets.
That is pretty much hitting the nail on the head there.
The problem is: More and more people are entering the work force every day. Meanwhile, more and more jobs are disappearing as employers find new ways to make labor costs cheaper for themselves (i.e. automation "robots" and outsourcing-- paying a veritable slave 5 cents a day in some third-world country or for-profit prison to do the job.)
Employers know that the job market is saturated with desperate people who will do more for less money, and that's just the way they like it. Don't like living in your car and eating ramen noodles for breakfast, lunch and dinner? Oh well. They can find someone who does.
It's not just for fast-food or retail anymore, either. The bar has been lowered across the board because our expectations have been lowered. If you enter the workforce today expecting to make a decent life for yourself, they will say you're entitled. If you don't want to completely humiliate yourself while breaking your back doing the same menial and repetitive tasks day after day well then you're just lazy, and that's just for those who are lucky enough to get anything at all.
This problem is intensifying daily. It's getting harder to tell people to "just get a job" in a job market that neither wants or needs them. What's worse is people are completely blind to all of this. They think nothing has changed since 1950. "Why, just get yourself a haircut and a cheap suit and show up wherever you feel like working at and tell them you're there for a job." they'll say. It is nauseating.
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Thankfully I was employed during the Bush administration. I couldn't imagine looking for work in the U.S. under the Obama administration. Well actually I can. I gave it a try for about 3 months until I realized it just wasn't working out.
if you're undereducated and non-skilled/experienced then suck less.
Quetzalcoatl.Taberif said: »
if you're undereducated and non-skilled/experienced then suck less.
While I agree that minimum wage shouldn't be enough to support a family on, the bigger issue is that raising the minimum wage doesn't have the intended effect and it certainly doesn't have the disastrous effects people claim it does.
Employers who rely on minimum wage labor while raking in billions a year in profit are just a symptom of a larger problem. There is a massive skills gap in this country. There are millions of trade jobs available and nobody with the skills to do them. I spent 10 years as a mechanic, because I enjoyed it. People just assumed that because I was a grease monkey, that I must have no education or not make much money. My best years I made well over 70K, average was 55-60K, and 3 of those years were working just 6 months in Alaska, literally getting paid while I slept.
Trade schools are also overwhelmingly private, and because of that, the cost of even a trade school or 2-year technical degree is pushing 30 grand. Why would anyone spend 30K they don't have on school to go be a plumber? Because, plumbers make a really good living and have great job security. It's the social stigma of being a plumber and the insane cost of education that keeps people in what should be part-time work for high-school kids on a gas money and take Cindy to the movies wage.
Employers who rely on minimum wage labor while raking in billions a year in profit are just a symptom of a larger problem. There is a massive skills gap in this country. There are millions of trade jobs available and nobody with the skills to do them. I spent 10 years as a mechanic, because I enjoyed it. People just assumed that because I was a grease monkey, that I must have no education or not make much money. My best years I made well over 70K, average was 55-60K, and 3 of those years were working just 6 months in Alaska, literally getting paid while I slept.
Trade schools are also overwhelmingly private, and because of that, the cost of even a trade school or 2-year technical degree is pushing 30 grand. Why would anyone spend 30K they don't have on school to go be a plumber? Because, plumbers make a really good living and have great job security. It's the social stigma of being a plumber and the insane cost of education that keeps people in what should be part-time work for high-school kids on a gas money and take Cindy to the movies wage.
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I signed an invoice at work for plumbing done from Roto-Rooter. The breakdown was like $45/hour for the labor alone. I'm sure the guy doesn't get all of that, but damn, I should have a been a plumber. Except for that whole part of dealing with pipes clogged with crap. Kind of a deal breaker for me.
Phoenix.Xantavia said: »
I signed an invoice at work for plumbing done from Roto-Rooter. The breakdown was like $45/hour for the labor alone. I'm sure the guy doesn't get all of that, but damn, I should have a been a plumber. Except for that whole part of dealing with pipes clogged with crap. Kind of a deal breaker for me.
It is a dirty job, but it's probably going to be mud and soil. And if you're a plumber installing all the new pipework in a building, it'll be plaster dust, too.
That said, much as I want to support Jassik's point-of-view, I also want to point out that having one of those skilled trades, on top of having a ridiculous up-front cost, generally means working 60+ hours a week, at least in my experience. And if you work in construction, you might spend 250+ days out of the year living out of a hotel room. There are many reasons why people don't jump on the fat paychecks that come with skilled trade, even among those with that skill.
It's just like trying to attribute business closure to a higher minimum wage: reductionist and short-sighted.
If we want to talk about things that require skill, I used to do tech support over the phone. I'm sure some of us have tried to do this and shockingly not dealt with someone out of Delhi (heaven help you when you do reach India or the Philippines, though). I had to self-educate on how to fix customer problems because I was given basically no training. There was no flexibility in my schedule. I was dicked around constantly by management (they once logged me out of work without telling me to go home, which I'm sure borders on being illegal). And I was paid about 50 cents over minimum wage, which goes a long way to explaining why your tech support from many companies is ***. Oh, and this was back in 2005 when the economy was allegedly fine and dandy and the Republicans were making everyone rich, provided you define "everyone" as "white, probably male, and already rich."
Any kind of simple answer when it comes to wages is probably going to be woefully flawed.
There's something I keep wanting to ask around here, though. Anyone who has read Asimov's Robot books is likely aware that work is basically unnecessary with the creation of semi-autonomous robots. People will still occupy themselves and hopefully be encouraged to write the next great piece of entertainment and develop the next great technology and cure the next great disease, but the idea of toiling for a 1/3 or more of your life just to continue surviving for the remainder is effectively obsolete. No one is a plumber nor a fast food employee, unless you consider robots to be people (these are pre-singularity robots, that is, they're still ultimately programmed and controlled by humans).
I wonder what the demagogues here think about that.
I think it would be a fine goal if nobody had to work. Everybody would be granted food and shelter, enough to not worry about dying. Anything beyond that, you would have to work, in which case working 10 hours a week might be more than enough for any luxuries. You want television, cel phone, video games, or whatever, do some work to pay for it. If people could stop worrying about how they are going to cover rent or that they can only eat 4 meals this week, I feel society would be a much nicer place.
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
That said, much as I want to support Jassik's point-of-view, I also want to point out that having one of those skilled trades, on top of having a ridiculous up-front cost, generally means working 60+ hours a week, at least in my experience.
Eh, that's pretty subjective. There is a steep investment in a lot of trades, that's for sure. About 25K in education and another 10-15K in tools of the trade for automotive. But, I'll be the first to admit that you need neither a 2 year program nor a tool-box worth as much as a lexus to get into the field. Apprenticeship type programs and basic tools are just fine, though you will start slightly lower on the pay-scale.
All-in-all, it's about how hard you want to work, how much you apply yourself, and what sacrifices you're willing to make. As many executives that fell into the position by being shat out with a trust fund and daddy's recommendation, you'd better believe there are twice as many executives that started low and made personal sacrifices to climb the ladder.
Not everyone can be a manager, someone has to do the hard jobs, and often times that means similar wages to the cake-eating paper-pushers who feel so entitled.
Quote:
Not everyone can be a manager, someone has to do the hard jobs, and often times that means similar wages to the cake-eating paper-pushers who feel so entitled.
That is why i never get the "try harder" argument. I always hear that if you apply yourself, you'll get a great job, as if there would magically be enough jobs to go around.
Wish I could get 15$ /hour myself :o
Public Employee here, non-expiring contract, and I'm nowhere near that lol.
Public Employee here, non-expiring contract, and I'm nowhere near that lol.
If $15\hr really becomes minimum wage, that's really good, is'nt it?
I mean, I live in Norway, I make a bit under the avg, but I still live very comfy, and i make a bit over $20\hr.
With cheaper prices for everything over there in the US, would'nt $15 be really good?
I mean, I live in Norway, I make a bit under the avg, but I still live very comfy, and i make a bit over $20\hr.
With cheaper prices for everything over there in the US, would'nt $15 be really good?
Cerberus.Kvazz said: »
If $15\hr really becomes minimum wage, that's really good, is'nt it?
I mean, I live in Norway, I make a bit under the avg, but I still live very comfy, and i make a bit over $20\hr.
With cheaper prices for everything over there in the US, would'nt $15 be really good?
I mean, I live in Norway, I make a bit under the avg, but I still live very comfy, and i make a bit over $20\hr.
With cheaper prices for everything over there in the US, would'nt $15 be really good?
To start, yes, but that will only last until companies lay off employee's and raise prices in order to pay those wages. Once the dust settles, and all the prices have gone up then it will be practically the same as it is now. Double the wages and everything cost double. No difference in the long run. Short run it will screw a lot of the lower class due to job loss and price hikes.
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
most of which are not the most honest people around
By nature of being low wage employees they're dishonest.
Awesome.
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
I wouldn't know how they explained it to them. I highly doubt they could be completely honest with their employees, as 99.9% of the information they have to deal with would go straight over the employee's head.
Do you have any idea how much college graduates I worked with at Walmart, some of which were in STEM fields, but hampered by social obligations geographically so that other jobs weren't an option?
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Remember, they do not hire the brightest bulbs, but the ones who are willing to at least put the effort in their jobs. Even then, that's a crapshoot.
Yeah, there are some idiots there. But there are also people there that were like me, who put effort in until they made it clear there was no room for someone like me to advance in the company.
That's when they got the "minimal work for their minimal pay".
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Cerberus.Kvazz said: »
If $15\hr really becomes minimum wage, that's really good, is'nt it?
I mean, I live in Norway, I make a bit under the avg, but I still live very comfy, and i make a bit over $20\hr.
With cheaper prices for everything over there in the US, would'nt $15 be really good?
I mean, I live in Norway, I make a bit under the avg, but I still live very comfy, and i make a bit over $20\hr.
With cheaper prices for everything over there in the US, would'nt $15 be really good?
You're ignoring that fact that the scumbags at top won't deign to have their own golden crappers taken away so that their employees can have decent lives too.
Raising the minimum wage would be effect, except for the nature of corporate greed. But you'll never get rid of that, so raising the minimum wage is just going to cause more problems.
Phoenix.Xantavia said: »
Except for that whole part of dealing with pipes clogged with crap. Kind of a deal breaker for me.
Never buy a home or become a parent then. :p
Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
By nature of being low wage employees they're dishonest.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Do you have any idea how much college graduates I worked with at Walmart, some of which were in STEM fields, but hampered by social obligations geographically so that other jobs weren't an option?
There are more to the story than having a scientist working at Walmart "for social obligations" or "geographical issues."
Hell, they can take management positions in any field just because the have a college degree. If what you say is true, they choose Walmart because they are too lazy to even try to find a well paying job.
So, I'm calling *** on your anecdote situation.
Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
But there are also people there that were like me, who put effort in until they made it clear there was no room for someone like me to advance in the company.
Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Raising the minimum wage would be effect, except for the nature of corporate greed. But you'll never get rid of that, so raising the minimum wage is just going to cause more problems.
Hell, I dare you to find a company with margins over 5% who would be directly affected by minimum wage increase to double the previous rate....
Protip: You can't.
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
By nature of the choice of job they take. Or are you going to say that every single cashier, stockboy, and sales associate in every single store across the world are honest employees?
I'm saying gauging people as dishonest just because they're a low-wage employee is a farce. And before you try to twist that about my take on corporate culture, please note I'm attacking the culture, not the individual people. Not all executives or corporations are greedy lying ***, but the overarching theme of corporate America is all of those things.
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Hell, they can take management positions in any field just because the have a college degree.
No, they're qualified for those positions. As I stated, Walmart doesn't really like college-educated managers. Found that out the hard way. And I'm very happy for you that you think "just switching jobs" is always an option.
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
There are more to the story than having a scientist working at Walmart "for social obligations" or "geographical issues."
No, you just don't have an understanding of "familial obligations" to some people. I don't agree with their actions in their situations, but I understand them.
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
You know what, I dare you to find a company with margins over 5% who can field an increase of double the current labor costs and still maintain the level of development/innovation, benefits, and margin that they had previously.
Is that 5% before or after their executives get paid ungodly amounts of money and bonuses?
[+]
I'm going to expand on the nature of honesty based by employee a little further.
Yes, theft happens in all fields and all professions. Whether you are a stocker, cashier, manager, accountant, or CEO, it happens. Kessler released a study back in 2013 that upwards of 95% of employees steal from their employers, and that's a very significant factor. Mind you, most of these thefts are minor (office supplies, services, utilities, and so on) but some can be very significant to the company, including cash and corporate information.
Only one profession can honestly state that honesty is a key factor to it's profession, and any professional cause being dishonest are not only condemned, but also removed permanently from the profession period. Even being accused of dishonesty has destroyed a firm in 2003.
And they are the ones most accused of dishonesty.
Yes, theft happens in all fields and all professions. Whether you are a stocker, cashier, manager, accountant, or CEO, it happens. Kessler released a study back in 2013 that upwards of 95% of employees steal from their employers, and that's a very significant factor. Mind you, most of these thefts are minor (office supplies, services, utilities, and so on) but some can be very significant to the company, including cash and corporate information.
Only one profession can honestly state that honesty is a key factor to it's profession, and any professional cause being dishonest are not only condemned, but also removed permanently from the profession period. Even being accused of dishonesty has destroyed a firm in 2003.
And they are the ones most accused of dishonesty.
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
By nature of being low wage employees they're dishonest.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Do you have any idea how much college graduates I worked with at Walmart, some of which were in STEM fields, but hampered by social obligations geographically so that other jobs weren't an option?
There are more to the story than having a scientist working at Walmart "for social obligations" or "geographical issues."
Hell, they can take management positions in any field just because the have a college degree. If what you say is true, they choose Walmart because they are too lazy to even try to find a well paying job.
So, I'm calling *** on your anecdote situation.
Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
But there are also people there that were like me, who put effort in until they made it clear there was no room for someone like me to advance in the company.
Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Raising the minimum wage would be effect, except for the nature of corporate greed. But you'll never get rid of that, so raising the minimum wage is just going to cause more problems.
Hell, I dare you to find a company with margins over 5% who would be directly affected by minimum wage increase to double the previous rate....
Protip: You can't.
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So, as I sort of figured, you're viewing everything through the lens of treating people like numbers, removing any human element from employees and solely working on the idea of making a company as profitable as possible and reward those at the top while marginalizing those at the bottom.
Basic corporate treatment, essentially.
It is what it is. You're hardly in the minority in thinking that's the way things should be done.
Basic corporate treatment, essentially.
It is what it is. You're hardly in the minority in thinking that's the way things should be done.
Vudoku said: »
Didn't you once say you're a trust fund baby? If I remember that correctly, maybe you shouldn't be posting about jobs?
He's just going to say that since he's not touched that money, it's not a factor. Because to him, it's not. He can't grasp how it may have a, you know, huge effect on things.
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