Minimum Wage

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Minimum Wage
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By Zackan 2015-03-22 23:45:50
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Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
Such an interesting thread. People arguing over things that have been summarized up time and time again. I think F Scott Fitzgerald said it best regarding the American and the proletariat.

However, to really approach the matter and get at the heart of it...simply ask:

Should the minimum wage be comparable to the cost of living?

no
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By Zackan 2015-03-22 23:47:29
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Jetackuu said: »
Man, and I thought that I looked down on people too much...


I am not looking down on anyone(ok maybe that parent of 4 who is expecting to make a living flipping burgers) (or any other untrained, unlicensed position that fits the description)

min wage should be $0 an hour.
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2015-03-22 23:49:11
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Cost of living varies locale to locale so to simply blanket a no without discourse or extrapolation is intriguing.

You don't feel that the minium wage should have a relationship or be based off the cost of living in any capacity?
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By Zackan 2015-03-22 23:50:48
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Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
Cost of living varies locale to locale so to simply blanket a no without discourse or extrapolation is intriguing.

You don't feel that the minium wage should have a relationship or be based off the cost of living in any capacity?


I think minimum wage should be zero dollars an hour. Or if it absolutely MUST exist for some weird reason... it needs to be dictated at the City level(or county level if unincorporated) City overriding county in which law takes precedence.
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2015-03-22 23:50:49
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Zackan said: »
Jetackuu said: »
Man, and I thought that I looked down on people too much...


I am not looking down on anyone(ok maybe that parent of 4 who is expecting to make a living flipping burgers) (or any other untrained, unlicensed position that fits the description)

min wage should be $0 an hour.

Oh hey look.. Quick question what do you do to make money? I.e what's your title?
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By Jetackuu 2015-03-22 23:52:15
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Zackan said: »
Jetackuu said: »
Man, and I thought that I looked down on people too much...


I am not looking down on anyone(ok maybe that parent of 4 who is expecting to make a living flipping burgers) (or any other untrained, unlicensed position that fits the description)

min wage should be $0 an hour.
Matter of opinion, you're looking down on unskilled laborers, like they don't matter.

But the bold kinda explains your viewpoint, and further deliberation would be meaningless.
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2015-03-22 23:54:32
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Fyi there is no such thing as an unskilled laborer its a misnomer much like roustabouts'.
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By Zackan 2015-03-22 23:55:53
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Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
Zackan said: »
Jetackuu said: »
Man, and I thought that I looked down on people too much...


I am not looking down on anyone(ok maybe that parent of 4 who is expecting to make a living flipping burgers) (or any other untrained, unlicensed position that fits the description)

min wage should be $0 an hour.

Oh hey look.. Quick question what do you do to make money? I.e what's your title?

Better answer is to give a history.(short answer= I am a student, wife works as a Housekeeper, i am married with 3 boys)

At 17 I joined the National Guard(roughly 150-200 a month) I then became a pizza delivery driver making money off of tips, Then I deployed. When I got back was still in the National Guard, drove for Pizza Hut. Deployed a Second time. When I got back I worked for several different Unarmed Security companies until I went Active Army. I left the service 3 years ago, Drove for a few transportation companies,and now I am a full time student.
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By Bloodrose 2015-03-22 23:56:27
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I'll hire Zackan to do every *** job under the sun, and his minimum pay grade will be 0 dollars an hour.

Oh wait, that's called slave labor.
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By Zackan 2015-03-22 23:58:42
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Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
Fyi there is no such thing as an unskilled laborer its a misnomer much like roustabouts'.


The difference is definition. Sure you go through 'training' on how to properly flip that burger, so by strict definition you are 'trained'.

I define 'skilled' as having a Degree of some kind.

There are plenty of jobs where a degree is not required like say a Carpenter... But thats where the the 'licensed' comes into play.. technical jobs you still need a license of some kind.
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By Zackan 2015-03-22 23:59:07
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Bloodrose said: »
I'll hire Zackan to do every *** job under the sun, and his minimum pay grade will be 0 dollars an hour.

Oh wait, that's called slave labor.


No that is called Volunteering.
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By Bloodrose 2015-03-23 00:04:47
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So you are basically proposing that minimum wage be 0 dollars an hour, in which people would have to "volunteer" to work, without a means to support their family, or themselves, and actually be forced to pay money, just to have a job.

*** BRILLIANT!

Oh wait, slaves "volunteered" for the same ***.

Let me secure the materials and product, the skill, the knowledge, just so I can "volunteer", for a job that is hiring for 0 dollars an hour.
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By Jetackuu 2015-03-23 00:05:28
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Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
Fyi there is no such thing as an unskilled laborer its a misnomer much like roustabouts'.
hush left shark!
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By Jetackuu 2015-03-23 00:07:09
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Bloodrose said: »
So you are basically proposing that minimum wage be 0 dollars an hour, in which people would have to "volunteer" to work, without a means to support their family, or themselves, and actually be forced to pay money, just to have a job.

*** BRILLIANT!

Oh wait, slaves "volunteered" for the same ***.

Let me secure the materials and product, the skill, the knowledge, just so I can "volunteer", for a job that is hiring for 0 dollars an hour.
internships?
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By Bloodrose 2015-03-23 00:07:33
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Oh, and by the way, Zackan, since you are completely in the dark about the kind of training that goes into even fast food, I don't think there is even any kind of discussion worth having about that with you.

You simply assume all they need to know is how to flip burgers. God damn that's *** stupid.
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By Bloodrose 2015-03-23 00:07:59
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Internship at least comes with perks, and for the purpose of training/experience.
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By Zackan 2015-03-23 00:09:44
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Bloodrose said: »
So you are basically proposing that minimum wage be 0 dollars an hour, in which people would have to "volunteer" to work, without a means to support their family, or themselves, and actually be forced to pay money, just to have a job.

*** BRILLIANT!

Oh wait, slaves "volunteered" for the same ***.

Let me secure the materials and product, the skill, the knowledge, just so I can "volunteer", for a job that is hiring for 0 dollars an hour.


Wow way to discredit internships and volunteering. If you think a truck driver or a plumber or a pyschologist would ACCEPT the position for $0 dollars an you are crazy in the head.

Me saying min wage should be $0 is NOT the same as saying employers should PAY there employees $0 dollars an hour....

Capitalism.. its a crazy concept I know....
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By Bahamut.Omael 2015-03-23 00:10:16
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Bloodrose said: »
Oh wait, slaves "volunteered" for the same ***.

If they're really slaves, they could just run away.
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By Bloodrose 2015-03-23 00:10:54
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But you are also forgetting that employers are more than willing to pay the absolute minimum to hire people to do the same job.

Again, capitalism, a crazy concept you know absolutely *** all about.
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By Zackan 2015-03-23 00:11:23
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Bloodrose said: »
Oh, and by the way, Zackan, since you are completely in the dark about the kind of training that goes into even fast food, I don't think there is even any kind of discussion worth having about that with you.

You simply assume all they need to know is how to flip burgers. God damn that's *** stupid.


I know it is not the same as what I go through to get my Bachelor's Degree, I know it is not the same what I went through to join the Army, I know it is not what you need PAST education to be a lawyer(pass the bar exam) or be a teacher(pass the teachers credentialing)
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By Zackan 2015-03-23 00:13:02
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Bloodrose said: »
But you are also forgetting that employers are more than willing to pay the absolute minimum to hire people to do the same job.

Again, capitalism, a crazy concept you know absolutely *** all about.


Finally we agree, employers ARE willing to pay the minimum.... but it is the minimum that is artifically created. They would not pay $0 if there was no min wage, but if min wage is $1 then guess what.. they see the minimum, so they can feel justified in paying it!!!
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By Bloodrose 2015-03-23 00:13:47
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Let's see, most places require you have, or pass the ServPro exam, and have at least a valid certificate in Safety and Sanitation. Because food poisoning will *** kill someone.

You want to try that again?
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By Bloodrose 2015-03-23 00:15:18
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They can justify paying 0 dollars an hour too, you numbnut.

They can decide, regardless of the money or time spent developing your skills and education or knowledge, to be worth 0 dollars to them.

Hell, without a base rate of pay, the Military can scrap paying their soldiers.
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2015-03-23 00:15:25
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Zackan said: »
Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
Fyi there is no such thing as an unskilled laborer its a misnomer much like roustabouts'.


The difference is definition. Sure you go through 'training' on how to properly flip that burger, so by strict definition you are 'trained'.

I define 'skilled' as having a Degree of some kind.

There are plenty of jobs where a degree is not required like say a Carpenter... But thats where the the 'licensed' comes into play.. technical jobs you still need a license of some kind.

There is a difference in a chef a line cook and a burger flipper. Much like there is a difference in a craftsman, a carpenter and a construction worker.

Having a license or degree as a qualifier of explicit skill is slightly conflating things.
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By Zackan 2015-03-23 00:19:07
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Bloodrose said: »
Let's see, most places require you have, or pass the ServPro exam, and have at least a valid certificate in Safety and Sanitation. Because food poisoning will *** kill someone.

You want to try that again?


Maybe

I know during my time working with pizza joints I never heard of either of those things.

I have a friend who works as a Waiter in a different state, i will ask him about it.

Ok he said it depends on the state.. which doesnt change my argument.

to recap: I am 100% against a Federal Min Wage... if a Min Wage MUST exist it needs to be decided at the CITY level.
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By Zackan 2015-03-23 00:21:01
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Bloodrose said: »
They can justify paying 0 dollars an hour too, you numbnut.

They can decide, regardless of the money or time spent developing your skills and education or knowledge, to be worth 0 dollars to them.

Hell, without a base rate of pay, the Military can scrap paying their soldiers.

No they can not justify paying $0....

They can TRY .. but the market will not let them.. cuz noone would work for them....
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By Bloodrose 2015-03-23 00:22:47
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City level? Hahahaha No.

State level argument would be more reasonable, but guess what, there already is.

The reason a federal standard of wages exists is to make sure as many people as possible are able to make a living - to provide and support.

Most states adopt the federal and then expand on it of their own will, making their state minimum wages higher than the federal in most places.

Oh, and yes it does change your argument. Because most places require it of their servers and back of house staff. The requirements to meet those standards vary from state to state, and not all positions require them - like delivery boys. But if you are doing a delivery, chances are you need a valid driver's license in their place, or in tandem with the other certificates.
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By Bloodrose 2015-03-23 00:25:02
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If a company can justify paying 1 dollar an hour for truckers to ship the company product over long distances, away from their families and friends for days, even weeks at a time, what's stopping them from justifying them paying 0 as the minimum wage?

Nothing legally.
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By Zackan 2015-03-23 00:27:45
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Bloodrose said: »
City level? Hahahaha No.

State level argument would be more reasonable, but guess what, there already is.

The reason a federal standard of wages exists is to make sure as many people as possible are able to make a living - to provide and support.

Most states adopt the federal and then expand on it of their own will, making their state minimum wages higher than the federal in most places.

Oh, and yes it does change your argument. Because most places require it of their servers and back of house staff. The requirements to meet those standards vary from state to state, and not all positions require them - like delivery boys. But if you are doing a delivery, chances are you need a valid driver's license in their place, or in tandem with the other certificates.

I suppose you can be right on a Technicality.. they are 'papers' that 'qualify' as 'certificates/licenses' But from what I am being told, most employers pay for those tests, most classes are easy, and the tests are open book.

Yes, as a delivery driver i needed a class c license.. But thats something 'everyone' has.

My point is you get paid for what sets you apart. The harder the license/certificate required, the more you should be paid.

In a working capitalism the only people who would work for less than $5 are those or are getting something more than money out of it. Internships, some promise to a better position. Small wage jobs are meant to be jumping stones to something better.
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By Zackan 2015-03-23 00:29:55
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Bloodrose said: »
If a company can justify paying 1 dollar an hour for truckers to ship the company product over long distances, away from their families and friends for days, even weeks at a time, what's stopping them from justifying them paying 0 as the minimum wage?

Nothing legally.

Legally means nothing. The truck driver would NEVER accept $1 an hour! They would not drive for the company if at a MINIMUM they can't cover the cost of gas and food. (not to mention cost of the lease on there truck and many other things)

Point is the company can TRY to pay zero.. but they will never succeed.. the market won't let them!
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