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 Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-20 13:01:24
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Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
fonewear said: »
Can you send me a PM when you are done with unions are great blah blah blah discussion. That would be great !
It's not that unions are great it's that they became necassary. They still have a host of problems to deal with to become good again but yeah.

Ideally companies would all have vacation and sick time allowances and health care contributions by default. And if/when I run a company, that is a model for which I will strive.

But as it stands, everyone is just out for themselves, so collectively bargaining allows a middle ground.
 Leviathan.Protey
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By Leviathan.Protey 2015-03-20 13:02:02
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Shiva.Nikolce said: »
If you joined the military to pay off your college loans then you used a government subsidy by having the military pay off your debt there Mister Highhorse.

You seem to have a problem with reading comprehension. I said I didn't have college loans. I had massive credit card debt.
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-20 13:03:08
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Bloodrose said: »
Again, you failed.

All Christians believe in Satan/The Devil, even if they do not worship him.

You are therefore equating Christians to Satanists. Which is an even more flawed argument than your first.

Also, every "No True Scotsman" is a fallacious argument.

Christian Conservatives do, and have had, abortions. Primarily so to save the life of the mother. But it is still an abortion. And they are still conservatives.

You are then equating your idea as to what a "true conservative" is in your mind, onto the whole spectrum, and are forcing an entitled version of what you consider true, onto everyone.
Which leads us to the Altimaomega principle. Where you are ok while we agree with each other, but present an argument not chivying with my viewpoint, and you are a koolaid drinking libertard *** child of Cthulhu.
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-03-20 13:04:37
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Leviathan.Protey said: »
Shiva.Nikolce said: »
If you joined the military to pay off your college loans then you used a government subsidy by having the military pay off your debt there Mister Highhorse.

You seem to have a problem with reading comprehension. I said I didn't have college loans. I had massive credit card debt.
Did you live in housing provided by the military?
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By Bloodrose 2015-03-20 13:04:59
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I wasn't aware Altimaomega had any principles, and yet, here we are.
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 Leviathan.Protey
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By Leviathan.Protey 2015-03-20 13:07:06
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Bloodrose said: »
Again, you failed.

All Christians believe in Satan/The Devil, even if they do not worship him.

You are therefore equating Christians to Satanists. Which is an even more flawed argument than your first.

Also, every "No True Scotsman" is a fallacious argument.

Christian Conservatives do, and have had, abortions. Primarily so to save the life of the mother. But it is still an abortion. And they are still conservatives.

You are then equating your idea as to what a "true conservative" is in your mind, onto the whole spectrum, and are forcing an entitled version of what you consider true, onto everyone.

again i did not fail, but you did. I nowhere said christians are satanists or even remotely inferred it. I said by definition they can't be the same.

you cease to be whatever it is you call yourself when you act contrary to the definition of whatever it is you call yourself.
 Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-20 13:08:02
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Leviathan.Protey said: »
Shiva.Nikolce said: »
If you joined the military to pay off your college loans then you used a government subsidy by having the military pay off your debt there Mister Highhorse.

You seem to have a problem with reading comprehension. I said I didn't have college loans. I had massive credit card debt.

Which sort of makes you an idiot in a lot of ways.

But then again, I was an idiot for paying for college with loans too, so I guess we can all jump on that wagon.

Edit: Then again, maybe it makes you brilliant if you racked up all that debt and then declared bankruptcy.

Come to think of it, maybe I should have done that after all.
 Leviathan.Protey
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By Leviathan.Protey 2015-03-20 13:08:12
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Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Did you live in housing provided by the military?

I was a single officer, so no.
 Shiva.Onorgul
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-03-20 13:08:15
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
So, go ahead, show us a non-profit organization that blows all of their money on their CEO.

That was largely sarcasm, but I can tell you that UPMC's CEO makes over $6M/year. Yes it's a hospital system, but it's still classified as a private non-profit. That's obviously a miniscule percentage of the money they work with being one of the nation's leading hospital systems, but still.

That's a lot for a non-profit.
I don't know anything about UPMC, but apparently it's tax exempt status is in question. As this blog shows it, I think they have a good chance of losing tax exempt status.
UPMC was a bad example in the first place. Corruption between the semi-private University of Pittsburgh and UPMC were major factors in my leaving Pitt. If you ever want to delve into the ways that corporations will gleefully ignore or bend laws, look no further than these two.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-20 13:09:10
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Leviathan.Protey said: »
you cease to be whatever it is you call yourself when you act contrary to the definition of whatever it is you call yourself.


Seriously, I have no clue what you just said.
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 Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-20 13:10:03
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
drinking libertard *** child of Cthulhu.

Cthulhu's madness is all-encompassing, thank you very much.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-20 13:10:22
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Shiva.Onorgul said: »
If you ever want to delve into the ways that corporations will gleefully ignore or bend laws, look no further than these two.
No, I got Enron for that, thanks though.
 Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-20 13:11:10
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Shiva.Onorgul said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Seraph.Ramyrez said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
So, go ahead, show us a non-profit organization that blows all of their money on their CEO.

That was largely sarcasm, but I can tell you that UPMC's CEO makes over $6M/year. Yes it's a hospital system, but it's still classified as a private non-profit. That's obviously a miniscule percentage of the money they work with being one of the nation's leading hospital systems, but still.

That's a lot for a non-profit.
I don't know anything about UPMC, but apparently it's tax exempt status is in question. As this blog shows it, I think they have a good chance of losing tax exempt status.
UPMC was a bad example in the first place. Corruption between the semi-private University of Pittsburgh and UPMC were major factors in my leaving Pitt. If you ever want to delve into the ways that corporations will gleefully ignore or bend laws, look no further than these two.

Yeah. UPMC employees have some issues in the works, that's for sure.

But AGAIN I'll say...I really just wanted to be an *** and it was the best example I could think of to do so.
 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-03-20 13:12:03
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Leviathan.Protey said: »
you cease to be whatever it is you call yourself when you act contrary to the definition of whatever it is you call yourself.
Seriously, I have no clue what you just said.
He's pretty much saying that if you want to be a conservative there is a checklist. If you can not check off every box on the list you are not a conservative even if you would identify as one.
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By Bloodrose 2015-03-20 13:12:21
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No, you really did fail.

Christians believe in a lot of fanciful things. Christians worship God, yet do not cease to be Christians because of their teachings that the devil is real. That is what your argument boiled down to.

Nor did I say that you said Christians were Satanist, just that you were equating the two to be the same, or similar. You accuse Nik of failing to comprehend, then you do so 10 fold more.

Perhaps you're not sure what "inferred" really means. I see you using it, but you don't seem to be using it correctly. The correct word you want to use, is "implied". And you would also be wrong about the definition.

Satanists stemmed from Christianity to begin with - many still practice Christian teachings, but worship a deity other than God. Fundamentalists, Latter Day Saints, etc., by your definition, would also cease to be Christian, despite being Christian.

Again, you hang on to the No True Scotsman Fallacy, and force your entitled version of what is true and what isn't, onto others.

And you said Conservatives do no such things.
 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-03-20 13:13:50
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Leviathan.Protey said: »
Bloodrose said: »
Again, you failed.

All Christians believe in Satan/The Devil, even if they do not worship him.

You are therefore equating Christians to Satanists. Which is an even more flawed argument than your first.

Also, every "No True Scotsman" is a fallacious argument.

Christian Conservatives do, and have had, abortions. Primarily so to save the life of the mother. But it is still an abortion. And they are still conservatives.

You are then equating your idea as to what a "true conservative" is in your mind, onto the whole spectrum, and are forcing an entitled version of what you consider true, onto everyone.

again i did not fail, but you did. I nowhere said christians are satanists or even remotely inferred it. I said by definition they can't be the same.

you cease to be whatever it is you call yourself when you act contrary to the definition of whatever it is you call yourself.
Except no satanist would identify as a christian... sooo.....
 Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-03-20 13:13:59
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I consider myself Christian to an extent and I don't even buy into God being real or Christ being divine.

That doesn't mean the core principles of Christianity aren't a solid way to live your life regardless of religion.
 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-03-20 13:14:18
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Leviathan.Protey said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Did you live in housing provided by the military?

I was a single officer, so no.
Since when does the military allow you to enlist as an officer with no prior agreement or work done?
 Leviathan.Protey
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By Leviathan.Protey 2015-03-20 13:14:22
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Seriously, I have no clue what you just said.

For an example: you can call yourself the slowest runner on earth. you then go and run faster than someone else. through your actions you have acted contrary to the definition of what you called yourself and therefore cease to be what you called yourself.
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-20 13:14:31
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Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Leviathan.Protey said: »
you cease to be whatever it is you call yourself when you act contrary to the definition of whatever it is you call yourself.
Seriously, I have no clue what you just said.
He's pretty much saying that if you want to be a conservative there is a checklist. If you can not check off every box on the list you are not a conservative even if you would identify as one.
Another No True Scotsman fallacy?
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By Bloodrose 2015-03-20 13:15:56
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Leviathan.Protey said: »
you cease to be whatever it is you call yourself when you act contrary to the definition of whatever it is you call yourself.
Seriously, I have no clue what you just said.
He's pretty much saying that if you want to be a conservative there is a checklist. If you can not check off every box on the list you are not a conservative even if you would identify as one.
Another No True Scotsman fallacy?
Pretty much, yeah.
 Shiva.Onorgul
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-03-20 13:16:23
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
If you ever want to delve into the ways that corporations will gleefully ignore or bend laws, look no further than these two.
No, I got Enron for that, thanks though.
Difference is that everyone has heard of Enron, whereas Pitt and UPMC slide under the radar. Seriously, you're into misappropriation of public funds, you should spend an afternoon investigating how Pitt gets considerable public funds, yet is allowed to act as a private university (I know most private universities get public funds via government grants, but Pitt is a different situation than that), and how Pitt acted as the de facto insurer of UPMC even after UPMC officially cut ties with the university and oh so many other really shady things.

Actually, I'd probably guess that my overwhelming skepticism of the good will of large entities is tied directly to having attended Pitt and been witness to just some of the insanity there. The way the university near me is buying up property to renovate it into something less ramshackle and shady doesn't even blip on my radar anymore, in spite of some rather questionable ethics in the whole process.
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 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-03-20 13:16:35
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Leviathan.Protey said: »
you cease to be whatever it is you call yourself when you act contrary to the definition of whatever it is you call yourself.
Seriously, I have no clue what you just said.
He's pretty much saying that if you want to be a conservative there is a checklist. If you can not check off every box on the list you are not a conservative even if you would identify as one.
Another No True Scotsman fallacy?
pretty much.
 Shiva.Onorgul
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-03-20 13:17:58
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Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Leviathan.Protey said: »
you cease to be whatever it is you call yourself when you act contrary to the definition of whatever it is you call yourself.
Seriously, I have no clue what you just said.
He's pretty much saying that if you want to be a conservative there is a checklist. If you can not check off every box on the list you are not a conservative even if you would identify as one.
Oh, hey, this is precisely why two-party politics is terrible. Yes, that subject has been on my mind lately.
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-20 13:18:37
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Leviathan.Protey said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Seriously, I have no clue what you just said.

For an example: you can call yourself the slowest runner on earth. you then go and run faster than someone else. through your actions you have acted contrary to the definition of what you called yourself and therefore cease to be what you called yourself.
Question: Do you still call yourself the slowest runner on earth when you run faster than even one person?

Answer: No.

Therefor, No True Scotsman fallacy does not exist in that statement.

However, what you said doesn't apply here. Christians believe in the devil long before you were even born, and they are still Christians. By your definition, they wouldn't be Christians because they believed in the devil.

There is no checklist of being a conservative. I am a conservative, I know I'm a conservative, I don't have to prove to you that I'm a conservative. I don't have to abide by your standards of a conservative, and you should not expect anyone to do so, because your standards of a conservative is different than mine.
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-03-20 13:20:38
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Leviathan.Protey said: »
Shiva.Nikolce said: »
If you joined the military to pay off your college loans then you used a government subsidy by having the military pay off your debt there Mister Highhorse.

You seem to have a problem with reading comprehension. I said I didn't have college loans. I had massive credit card debt.

the run on paragraph didn't help any.... however

you said you paid for college with credit cards....
you either left out the part about winning the lottery or you paid the college loans in the form of credit card debt while being employed and housed by the federal government

Leviathan.Protey said: »
I had to pay for college myself (couldn't get loans because my family is rich and so racked up massive credit card debt to pay for it (it=college))....blah blah blah ....my future job in the Army).

Well, the day-to-day work wasn't going to pay for the college debt I had so thinking about what I had to do I joined the military.

I quickly paid off my debt WHILE LIVING IN GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIZED HOUSING IN THE MILITARY
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-20 13:21:12
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Shiva.Onorgul said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
If you ever want to delve into the ways that corporations will gleefully ignore or bend laws, look no further than these two.
No, I got Enron for that, thanks though.
Difference is that everyone has heard of Enron, whereas Pitt and UPMC slide under the radar. Seriously, you're into misappropriation of public funds, you should spend an afternoon investigating how Pitt gets considerable public funds, yet is allowed to act as a private university (I know most private universities get public funds via government grants, but Pitt is a different situation than that), and how Pitt acted as the de facto insurer of UPMC even after UPMC officially cut ties with the university and oh so many other really shady things.

Actually, I'd probably guess that my overwhelming skepticism of the good will of large entities is tied directly to having attended Pitt and been witness to just some of the insanity there. The way the university near me is buying up property to renovate it into something less ramshackle and shady doesn't even blip on my radar anymore, in spite of some rather questionable ethics in the whole process.
Except what happens in Pittsburgh stays in Pittsburgh. What I say to the federal government may affect funding to UPMC, but all in all, it's the city and state's responsibility to take care of it before the federal government does.

And when do you even think I'm for misappropriation of funds?
 Shiva.Onorgul
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-03-20 13:25:00
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
There is no checklist of being a conservative. I am a conservative, I know I'm a conservative, I don't have to prove to you that I'm a conservative. I don't have to abide by your standards of a conservative, and you should not expect anyone to do so, because your standards of a conservative is different than mine.
Why do you choose to identify as such?

Serious question.

For instance, a lot of what you believe in terms of social norms are progressive. You're fiscally conservative, but even that comes with various caveats and provisos.

Why would you (meaning anyone, not just Kingnobody) want to identify with a label that necessarily straitjackets you? Protey is actually doing exactly what we've been culturally told to do: if you want to wear the hat, you've got to make sure everything from your suitcoat down to your shoes matches it.

I saw a bumper sticker yesterday that left me baffled. It was the Democrat donkey with the words "Another Pro Life Democrat" written under it. You're not much of a Democrat if you disagree with a major principle of the party's platform, so why cling so mightily to a restrictive label?
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 Shiva.Onorgul
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-03-20 13:25:58
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
And when do you even think I'm for misappropriation of funds?
I said you're "into," as in, "it is a subject of interest for you." I didn't mean to imply that you (or anyone rational) supports misappropriations.
 Leviathan.Protey
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By Leviathan.Protey 2015-03-20 13:26:17
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Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Leviathan.Protey said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Did you live in housing provided by the military?

I was a single officer, so no.
Since when does the military allow you to enlist as an officer with no prior agreement or work done?

always.
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