~First And Final Line Of Defense V2.0~

Well since Atonement is a means to measure, not very good, but it's a starting point to maybe nail down Libra's mechanisms. Then use SCH and PLD to perform tests. SCH would an excellent compliment to PLD in the tests by not only offering a another enmity measure but also being able to 1.) augment healing magic skill thus limiting tranquil heart 2.) augmenting enmity generation with Animus 3.) the ability to self cure, and AoE cure and finally 4.) Create large hate spikes with self SC and bursts or just spamming nooks.
More schs might better since Libra is a 1 minute cool down.
Sound legit?

Atonement is a practically flawless way to measure CE. VE too to a lesser extent; as that decays in "delays", it's a bit messier.

Libra isn't a very good mechanism to try and math out enmity values, as it just displays ultimately meaningless %s.

And damage is the same regardless of the source, only modified by ±Enmity that one might be wearing/merited/Job Point'd/JT'd. It's just a flat conversion into CE and then 3x the CE into VE iirc.

If you're wanting to make an enmity tracker, you'd need to figure out the CE and VE of every JA (we've mostly done that so far), and then have a damage tracker that converts the DPS into CE and VE while also removing 1 VE every "delay" (1/60th of a second).

Increasing healing magic skill would enhance tranquil heart's potency making it reduce enmity gain more. It would in no way limit it. Nor would this in any way help in testing. It just complicates things.

Animua Augeo is +10 enmity. Crusade, native to PLD is +30. There is no need for this at all. They take up the same buff slot, btw, so they can't be stacked.

Magic bursts have vastly reduced enmity. Vastly reduced, but by an unquantified value. And thus they would have to be tested before they could be used as a test tool. This also has nothing to do with cure enmity.

And finally, you didn't answer the actual question at all.

How do you believe cure enmity differs from the current model, and what specific test could you perform to demonstrate this?

If you don't actually offer a testable hypothesis then we get nowhere. If you can't think of a way to test it then at least explain in a detailed and understandable manner what your hypothesis even is.

Ok so healing under dark arts as opposed to healing under light arts will grant the same tranquil heart bonus? Spamming nooks with known values to build enmity? Curing with an AoE like healing breeze on PLD and SCH/WHM for curaga 2 to stay under dark arts? I laid out a test and I'm still getting crap? I was trying to contribute but it seems to be not wanted. I can take a hint.
Like I respect you guys know everything but seriously one guy says enmity x 3 the other says enmity x 6 - 1? Also what part of that WS damage, when under 1190, is which measure since it comes as one chunk of damage and not 2 separate? Never mind. I dont care at this point. Imma go and thank you for your time. It's been helpful.

You're mixing up many things.

The damage formula for Atonement:
((CE ÷ 6) - 1) + ((VE ÷ 6) - 1) ≤ (mainhand item)Level × 10
This means damage at most can be 1190.

However; that 1190 damage will generate MORE CE and VE. The exact shift has gotten a bit murky over the years because they changed it a few times, but the same part remains true: damage ==> n CE and 3*n VE

So let's *** some numbers for illustrative purposes. I'm not gonna deal with VE decay for this part because ain't nobody got time for that.
You have 600 CE and 400 VE when you use Atonement.
Atonement will deal: ((600 ÷ 6) - 1) + ((400 ÷ 6) - 1) = 166
That 166 will generate you more CE and VE.

For this *** number illustration let's say damage::CE is 8::1.
So with 166 damage, you gain 20 CE and 60 VE.
Making your enmity now: 620 CE and 460 VE.
So the next Atonement will deal: ((620 ÷ 6) - 1) + ((460 ÷ 6) - 1) = 178 damage

Furthermore, in this hypothetical, if you dealt 166 damage in a nuke, you would gain the same 20 CE and 60 VE. Because it doesn't matter the source of the damage, the same damage will generate the same base enmity which will then be modified by your gear/JTs/abilities/etc.

As for your Arts idea, Arts don't give skill penalties. Just a potential bonus for any relevant skill that's under a B rating. So... Dark Arts won't really be doing anything that using no arts would.

When we test things, we wait for VE to decay to 0. So Atonement is only hitting for 1 strike. That's what the 2 hits means. 1 hit is CE. The other is VE. So when we math things backwards, we're only dealing with damage from CE so we're only mathing out CE.

And it's not that we're giving you ***. We just don't understand what the point you're trying to convey is.
Personally, I think that is because you're confused about some fundamental things involved. But even then, I'm not confident in that assessment because I just don't know what you're trying to put forth in an argument.

Nothing was said about skill penalties, the topic of this discussion was stated in a previous post, and I'm not confused. The catalyst was observations made during numerous Wave 3 Dynamis runs where the fights are more drawn out and somethings weren't acting as anticipated, but again this was stated in a previous post, had you read the posts rather than just skimming looking for something to be right about like everyone else on this forum, you might have seen this. I'd love to lay out a step by test for what I think, but I dont care enough about it anymore to waste time, besides, I have RL stuff to do and Dynamis in 5 hours. Tic tock, ***doesnt get done on its own.

Hello everyone. I was looking forward to gearing up a paladin and I already know the jobs stupid beefy and such. I already have a run i use for all situations I need to tank already. However I like the idea of pld alot. And was wondering how pld with neagling/blurred shield savage blading would perform damage wise and tank wise. I mean obviously it wont be as hard hitting as rune tanking things like albumen with lionheart. However will it be possible to toss out reasonable numbers while also gaining tp reasonable but not to fast in a tank set designed to tp in? Like run can? If so can someone share the set?

PLD should be able to put up some really good Savage blade numbers honestly. They have access to both Valorous and Odyssean gear.

Their real detriment right now, is they can't generate AoE hate, and DD. They have to pick one to do. That usually comes down to subjob choice. A lot of times you're going to be /blu for AoE, where a RUN can go /war without losing too much AoE, or /drk for kind of the best of both worlds.

PLD can also /drk, but unless you're going to Torcleaver you lose out on the attack speed buffs from last resort, or you lose out of the excellent damage mitigation from shield and still doesn't have enough AoE hate generation.

An awkward solution is to use some of the Arke stuff.

Which is subpar for tanking due to the lack of Meva, enmity, shield block rate/skill, etc. BUT it does benefit from the lack of evasion with its damage=>TP effect.
Though while I wouldn't use but a few pieces of it, it can help build TP faster.... but not well.
Also if you'd want to make really good use of it, you'd want to forego Aegis and Burtgang... which... (Though I guess then you could use Naegling and get that damage bonus on Savage Blade... which can get some nice numbers like Shadowmeld said.)

Arke + some of the more TP focused Sulevia pieces can put you in a 50/50/50DT situation while having a fairly good TP gain... but both of those gimp some of the better aspects of PLD's tanking (like HP for the Sulevia pieces or everything that's not DT or HP with Arke).

Honestly, if you chose to go for a Hybrid TP build or even an all-out TP build on PLD, you will have to sacrifice HP. It just becomes a mattwr of how much of one stat are you willing to exchange for another. Can't have it all sadly.

Here's a shitty one I just threw together in the past few minutes:
ItemSet 369723
Cape aug would be either DA or Store TP. I went with Priwen over Ochain or Aegis for the extra HP and the Meva.
Also, could swap the DA/STP on the cape to Haste to use a different belt. Preferably one of the ones with multiattack and haste. (sarissaphoroi belt would be the one I'd chose.)
EDIT: Could also use flamma gambieras +2 instead of Arke with a DT-5% on the cape for the resin augment

Also depends on how tanky you need to be too. You can roll a lower DT more offensive focused hybrid set if there isn't anything too threatening. That said PLD WS gear kinda sucks so you'll basically always be worse than the other Naegling users.

Arke head is one of the few pieces for pld that actually has haste on it so you can use not Tempus Fugit and use say sailfi belt +1

ItemSet 361005

Trades 2 acc and 4 StP for 32 attack, 6DA, and 2TA over the above set. Assuming shield is the same, ofc. That could be anything just depends on what you're doing.

If anyone can run numbers. On whether a burtgang r15 savage spamming beats out neagling aavage spamming. Due to the am3 of burt vs neaglings savage bonus.

This is actually what I came up with:

ItemSet 369724

Augs:
Cape - 10 PDT
Legs: DEX/acc/atk/STP
Feet: DEX/acc/atk/STP or DA
Hands: Path B

This set has a bunch of HP, capped haste, and 42% base PDT, 34% base MDT. If you need to cap PDT, +2 neck almost gets you there.

It's also got good STP, and sort of good DA (honestly a weak point).

The body/hands/legs of the Souv. +1 are actually semi Decent acc pieces, if you have Path A/B even better.

Looks like a good AM3 up Burtgang TP set. Lots of STP, and having low DA is not so much an issue with Burt. Also, the crit+ on Hjarrandi body should synergize well with AM3 as well.

There's little to no reason to use Savage Blade at 1k TP... unless you needed to close Light with Fragmentation right then and there.

Burtgang should be able to pull ahead just by having that 40% 2x 20% 3x AM3 and a set like allowing for faster TP gain for an overall higher parse.

Since multihits don't really boost Savage Blade's damage outside of Naegling (so no AM3), there's even less reason to spam it at 1k.
(If you're wanting a 1k TP WS to spam, Chant du Cygne is where it's at.)

I'm unsure though if a Burtgang spamming CdC or holding to "3k" for Savage would do more damage overall... though with AM3 I would lean to CdC pulling ahead over holding. But I could be wrong. (Savage Blade has some pretty crazy fTP scaling. Holding to 2k might be enough to "win" a parse.)

Just for completion's sake:

This is what I would probably aim for for PLD DD:

TP	Savage	CDC
ItemSet 369724	ItemSet 369727	ItemSet 369728
Augs: Cape - Dex/acc/atk/DA/Dex/10 PDT Legs: DEX/acc/atk/STP Feet: DEX/acc/atk/STP or DA Hands: Path B This set has a bunch of HP, capped haste, and 42% base PDT, 34% base MDT. If you need to cap PDT, +2 neck almost gets you there. It's also got good STP, and sort of good DA (honestly a weak point). The body/hands/legs of the Souv. +1 are actually semi Decent acc pieces, if you have Path A/B even better.	Note: I made a concious decision to stay away from Lust. gear, you just lose a ton defensively. If you want to use it, lustratio cap and lustratio harness would probably be good choices. Note 2: Ullr might be good enough that if you don't need ammo swap for anything (aka, SIRD or other things) it might be best to full time. PLD has 0 archery, so fat chance leveraging Empyreal Arrow to make light, it's literally just for the stats. Augs: Odyssean/Valorous: +15 STR/+4 WSD/acc/atk or +10 STR/+5 WSD/acc/atk JSE: STR/acc/atk/WSD/STR	Note: I avoid Begrudging ring, you sacrifice too much defensively imo, but it is clearly BIS Note 2: For the same reason as the savage set I avoided the Lust. set. You lose too much defensively. Augs: Valorous: DEX/acc/atk and one of crit rate, crit damage, DA JSE: DEX/acc/atk/crit rate/DEX

This is what I'm currently using for a Hybrid TP build:
ItemSet 369726

just a note for those sets, might be better to use a different ammo less you plan to both TP and WS in the bow, least iirc itll wipe TP swapping between those

See note 2 under the middle set

Shadowmeld those sets are fantastic my dude. I will look into them as I look more in depth of the job. But this will overall help in general considering damage and hate and such. Also faequeencry most dd typically just spam savage at like 1750 or at 1k but those dd also usually have tp bonus from other sources like magian weapons and earring and such. However bringing up chant du cygne is a good point! I never even considered that because this will be the first job I will play that can use that! Considering plds not tping like the other jobs meant to dd it will probably be best to use chant at 1k vs savage. I am guessing at least.

Question for the tanking sets. Is the abjuration gear still the plds bread and butter? Or are there new options nowdays? Also this guide is it up to date?

Pretty much, each piece path C has well over +150 HP. I could see some sets starting to show up with the Hjarrandi gear possibly, but the set bonus for Souv. kind of outweighs it imo, but in general the Souv. set is what you are going to aim for.

Not exactly what I was looking for, but that augment is only available to DM, so looks like I might have to redo my SIRD sets.

That's actually kinda nice. lol. 25% total. I'm almost certain there's setups where that 5% will be the difference between capped and not.

ItemSet 369761

This is the set I'm currently working for PLD TP. I do not have a Burtgang atm, but when I do get it I'll be substituting some of the listed gear for more Store TP, Such as Ginsen, Telos, Lissome, Dedition~ ETC.

This Set will give you capped Haste(Haste on JSE), Capped DT, and solid ACC with 28%DA and 6% TA.

You can also sub out Flamma feet, for Valorous feet, which would allow you to replace the Staunch Tathlum and maintain capped DT. I haven't gotten any good augments yet, but assuming you do Valorous would provide Higher Accuracy/Attack and potentially higher multi attack % if you use dark matter augments.

Is 2% TA on the belt worth 10%DA on the mantle?

Well I couldn’t cap haste without using it on the Cape, and it’s the same slot as DA would be. I guess it’d be a deciding factor if haste would be more important than 10 DA. I couldn’t say for sure, but I’d assume with Burtgang haste would be more important.

I haven't posted my "Hybrid" set yet, but mine is very much still focused on a lot of HP, I don't like seeing my HP at like 2300, that just scares me when I normally idle at 3200.

ItemSet 369859

Path B on the hands, HP/Acc/DA on the mantle

This is hybrid, I think I'm at 2900 hp still with this set, and decent attack stats.

*quick edit, I actually tanked W3 in this by accident, and wasn't until half the circles were dead that I realized I was hybrid the whole time. Still had high HP and wasn't taking any different dmg due to capped DT.

Nice yeah mine is actually right around Edit* 2300-2400, however my extent of tanking is VD Ambu, and up to Reis T3's in this Hybrid and was able to leave it on full time no issues. With capped DT, Cocoon, and Phalanx it's only certain content you would have to switch out to a full turtle set in/ anytime you don't want to feed TP.