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No. Even in your very narrow scope of trying to turn my comments into a critique of SMN, I wouldn't recommend using most of those jobs, certainly not MNK, against Zerde.

As a matter of fact, your rage would be better focused on GEO than on SMN. It is the only job used for every mob and every strategy in the Aeonic line.

Does absolutely nothing with three or more DD's hitting a NM. Reducing it's TP per WS from 10000TP to 8000TP (20% reduction) means nothing when the cap is 3000TP. Now if the MNK is by themselves or even with another MNK or NIN, then it's a different story.

TP reduction only matters in small group situations.

Wrong but continue believing whatever you want.

When there's 4 melee hitting something, it doesn't matter how much subtle blow you have.

When there's 2 melee, it matters. (can matter)

Pretty easy to do the math on TP feed per second, mob gets 30 more than your base value before applying subtle blow. A war with capped haste(gear/magic/hasso, no samba) and a zulf gets a swing every ~1.85 seconds. It gives 170 tp, and the WAR has an average of 1.9 hits per round. Thus, each WAR gives 175 tp/second. Using saevel's set, with 7 SB, it's 162.75 tp per sec. Thus, 3 WARs would give 488.25 tp per second and take 6.1 seconds to give the mob 3000 tp, guaranteeing every ws gets the full 3000.

Now, looking at 3 MNKs. The MNKs use godhands with their best tp set, which includes 75 sb. Penance is rotated. MNKs get a round of ~3.4 hits every 1.6 seconds and give a base of 83 tp per hit.
The MNKs each give:
83 * 3.4 = 282.2 base tp/round
282.2 * .25 = 70.55 tp/round after SB
70.55 * .75 = 52.9125 tp/round after penance
52.9125 / 1.6 = 33 tp/second

So, 3 WARs give 488.25 tp per second.
3 MNKs give only 99 tp per second.

The mob the WARs are fighting has 3000 tp every 6.1 seconds, guaranteeing it can WS every 7 seconds and will have full ftp each time. The mob the MNKs are fighting will WS about every 25-30 seconds with variable tp until 25%, at which point it'll be WSing every 10 seconds with only 1000.


If you change it to 2 WARs vs 2 MNKs, the wars give 325.5 tp per second and the mob is still wsing within 9 seconds each time even above 25%. The MNKs give only 66 tp per second and you can be going 12-15 seconds below 25%, or as long as 45 seconds above.

To elaborate, that means people claiming you won't reduce TP moves are correct in large groups. However, for anything using 4 or less melee, you'll reduce mob's average TP per ws by including a MNK in place of one of those 4 melee. For anything using 3 or less, or including primarily DD with subtle blow, you see a noticable reduction in TP frequency.

Don't know why I'm bothering posting this again, the group of MNK haters will never be satisfied with accepting it has a use. Top DPS or don't bother!

Right, but I haven't seen anything to indicate that a target's WS is more dangerous at 3k TP than at 1k TP.

For the example of Onychophora, it only becomes annoying at below 25%... The difference between 7-9 and 10 seconds.

For some, that might matter. But for those some, it shouldn't surprise them that it doesn't matter to others.

That's assuming 3 DPS. 3 MNKs giving 33 tp each will still take 10 seconds to get the mob to 1000 tp, and you can't use a range if you aren't allowing the MNKs the same courtesy. If mob isn't casting when it gets tp, that's a WS every 7 seconds for the WARs. So, it's either 7 seconds vs 10 or 7-9 vs 10-12.

If you use 2 MNKs, you're going 15 seconds vs 2 WARs still getting a WS every 7 seconds.

It's not very hard to tell that the majority of mob WS scale with TP, you're just too stubborn to actually try MNK against anything. You'd rather cry about how useless it is and demand everyone pity them.

They may scale, but not dangerously so.

In your new example, the difference is between 7 and 15 seconds.

For some, that might matter. But for those some, it shouldn't surprise them that it doesn't matter to others.

leviathan

asura

There is a cartoon called Three Monks you can find on Youtube. The caption reads, "A Chinese cartoon which my friend Yi introduced to me earlier this week. I'm still not sure of the moral but I still find it enchanting." Seems fitting.

Slight addendum but the +3 rule change along time ago (actually not completely sure it was ever 100% or just a thumb rule lol).

I just went and revivified a couple of values for Bgwiki formulas on tp gain so gunna take them as correct though obviously gotta take into account the decimal change. So going by those base tp given by Zulf would be 177 and Godhands should give 85 base per hit. Point still stands but it's a tad closer

It's easy to downplay it by saying it's 8 seconds. The truth is it's 115% longer between tp moves. Since most mobs have completely irrelevant melee(we know this because you keep saying how useless counter is!) and weak spell casts, TP moves are the primary means of killing your DPS. Allowing your WHM twice as many casts in between each assault is anything but insignificant.

Eh, take into account the % of greater DMG the WARs would be doing... Factor in that you want to get high TP, wait for a target's TP move (sometimes), and then do a big burst of damage... That 8 seconds could mean 115% more wasted time for significantly less damage.

There are better ways to mitigate the danger that some TP moves pose than just Subtle Blow.

It's a tradeoff, like anything else. You can't rationally argue that killing faster is safer than doubling the time between TP. WHM never runs out of mp any more, you just need to have enough time to outheal damage and enough DT gear to avoid one shots. Using MNKs and other dps with SB will drastically increase the time available to heal.. and mantra will help significantly with both time and one shots.

Obviously a top tier group who only cares about killspeed with no regard for fight stress(because it's not stressful to them) is going to choose WAR. A group with multiboxers, an undergeared group, a group who plays drunk/high, a group who isn't used to the mob, a group that's just plain not in a rush and wants a more relaxed fight.. these are the target audience. You're doing them a disservice by writing off the job completely, there's a reason people used it for so long.

Of course, there are mobs this doesn't apply to. Anything with heavy regain, anything where TP doesn't compose the majority of damage, anything you won't die to regardless.. these are situations where MNK isn't valid. That's fine though, very few jobs are good at everything. It still earns a place.

For some mobs, it surely is safer to kill faster. But I realize you were comparing HQ WARs vs HQ MNKs before, but aren't anymore, so extreme kill speed comparisons are less valid where you are trying to go with this.

So MNK's niche is for:
A) Automated groups. (no moral judgment here)
B) Under-geared groups.
C) Intoxicated groups. (no moral judgment here, either)
D) Groups that haven't read up on a mob/can't spare a pop to science a fight.
E) Groups that are in no rush to defeat timed content.

B and E are not likely to overlap. A and B might... But shouldn't for long as automation greatly accelerates wealth. As a matter of fact, I don't think an under-geared party of MNKs would have much luck anywhere, so I wouldn't say B is MNK's niche.
D would have a rough time. MNK has nothing with which to respond to a target's actions besides Inner Strength and Chakra. It is heavily dependent on its sub job and other party members to respond for it.
I guess it was thoughtful of SE to make a job for folks that really don't want to focus on playing their game while playing their game?
I don't think we're doing anyone a disservice by debating the job. They can see our points and make their own decisions. Unless they can't. In which case, they are probably group D.

i *** love mnk

If you've never said 'I should do X but I'm too lazy' or seen a significant amount of your linkshell members say the same, you might have a point. I'm guessing you see it all the time, I certainly do, even in shout occasionally. Reducing the mental burden of content makes it more fun, which is the point to begin with. Sometimes you just want to relax with a beer and kill some pixels.

It's also a stretch to reduce 'multi-boxing' to 'automated parties'. Maybe the only way you can get a WHM is to bring someone's dualbox. Maybe they aren't an amazing dualboxer. There are far more sub-ideal situations than you seem to realize.

No arguments there.

--

It is true I play with some truly exceptional people, so I am sheltered from the full assortment of sub-ideal situations out there. I can't answer for those situations.

Using MNK frustrates the hell out of me. I don't like providing damage in HQ gear below that of other jobs in sub-optimal WS gear--jobs that are also supposed to be utility jobs. If the Subtle Blow does it for you/makes a difference in the outcome of your battles, great. In my opinion, what it has for supposed utility makes no appreciable difference.

If I want to relax, I play GEO. Even if healing, enfeebling and nuking, I wouldn't call it a busy job. Even PUP can be busier.
But I don't think you mean, play MNK if you want to relax, since any DD is about as busy as any other (though some are more effective). I think you mean play MNK if your WHM wants to relax... I feel there are lots of jobs that provide better damage and damage mitigation than MNK--that also have less need of pricey gear to try to be competitive in DPS.
It comes down to, is the highest tier of Subtle Blow + Mantra > what other options have to offer. We'll just have to put that down as an "agree to disagree."

So....... Is anyone actually talking about what the thread means or are we all measuring *** and getting mad at others ***?

Serious question

Why the hell is there a job debate here, take it to another thread already ffs. I read this whole damn thing looking for some form of what the thread means and instead its nerf wars etc etc.

You're all pretty uber, I like all my Levi peeps here but holy donkey dung

NMs tend to do TP move every 9~12 seconds because their AI has them casting spells in between and then another 3s lockout time after the spell. If the NM casts a super quick spell like Holy or Stun then you can get 2 TP moves close to each other. Under 25% HP it use's TP every 1000, but again due to casting mechanic you end up feeding it far more TP then that during it's animation.


Your assuming the NM is just standing there doing nothing while waiting for you to give it TP, doesn't work that way. Also TP feed doesn't magically stop during the TP charge animation, and monster TP moves aren't usually instant. Want to know what else causes NM's to do less TP moves, killing them quicker. Your overestimating the effects of subtle on NM TP move reduction. It most certainly helps out, especially if you only have one or two MNK's / NIN's on it (6 man party), but once your at three or more fully buffed DD's it becomes a wasted effort, just kill it faster.




Except for the reasons I've outlined it doesn't actually reduce it by two. With a bunch of buffed DD's your going to feed the NM more TP then it's AI can react causing it to overflow far beyond the 3000 mark. Charge times, casting times and global lockout timers all add to time in between TP moves. This is also why you should put Addle / Pinning on boss's whenever possible, causing them to stay in casting animation longer delays adds to the overflow and effectively prevents TP moves.

Start 0 -> DD's feed TP -> Gets 3000 starts charging TP move -> DD's feeding more TP -> Use's TP move and now at 0 -> DD's feeding TP -> NM not yet at 3000 so decides to cast Firaga IV -> DD's feeding more TP -> now at 3000TP but in the middle of casting animation of Firaga IV -> DD's feeding more TP -> finished casting now waiting three seconds -> DD's feeding more TP -> Starts charging TP move -> DD's feeding more TP.

So basically it's spending a lot of time at capped TP either waiting on a global timer (2s post TP move or 3s post casting) or in the middle of an charging / casting animation. In those situations any TP given to it is lost. Subtle blow is one of those things that sounds great on paper but doesn't work well in actual practice due to the way this games AI works. The entire strategy behind a "zerg rush" is to overload the games AI.

<25% on my Kin today using RUN x3. A mob with reduced cast delay compared to standard, and still TPing in 8-12 seconds each time. MNKx3 takes 30 seconds to feed 3000 TP. If a mob with extra frequent casts can TP every 12 seconds or more frequently, how do you figure MNK is unable to double length between TP moves?

If my numbers are wrong, show where. If they aren't, that means that the WARs are getting TPed every 8-12 seconds when factoring mob's other AI and the MNKs cannot possibly be getting TPed any more often than every 30 seconds. That's more than double the time between TPs.

I've used MNK. I've talked with others who have used MNK. The difference is there, the math supports it. You're being obstinate, because you're too heavily invested in the idea that 'MNK BAD HURR DURR'. Make a logical argument or let it go.

You should be counting tp gained from nm hitting players too.

On a completely unrelated but interesting monk note, penance could be made slightly more unique by giving the monster a "nocturne effect" to their tp animations. Meaning that those red lines take 5-8 seconds to actually make a move go off rather than near instantly. I could think of about a dozen strategies might totally make that unique ability an extremely desirable tactic Helping front line jobs control damage mitigation a bit cleaner. This discussion bright about the idea.

Perhaps I should suggest that on the official forums

That would allow players to run out of range everytime, thats more broken than all the broken things in ffxi history.

If you have to choose between a MNK/NIN/DNC to join your party in the current meta of endgame to create TP inhibition with other DDs wouldn't it be more viable to use already established jobs like DNC?

I always advocate using subtle blow in smaller groups and I consider NIN/DNC the way to go since it makes it so much easier on healers with [Migawari/Shadows/No Occult Acumen to NMs/Steps/Waltz/Clim] but this narrative is highly discouraged amongst players and only during this month it got some highlights.

MNK would be a great option as well yet when you factor DPS some people might reconsider.

If there was a rating here to use this feature: DNC>NIN>MNK

Also not many people understand how insane MNK's white damage is in situations where you can't SC or WS.

I believe the way people take sides here can be paralleled with the argument of (Zerg Fest vs SC Coordination) and since the latter takes more coordination people tend to overlook it.

In conclusion, maybe the dispute revolves around who wants to put more effort during a fight vs who wants to chill and spam.

It was a generic idea that. 5-8 seconds was a random number. There's give and take with everything. Every second you are not near the monster you're giving up dps. I'm just making the point that since monk has always been so nichey, more niche to fill your niche stockings won't hurt the niche factory anymore! It would only complement to some extent the defensive capabilities that monk already offers