From Byrth's tests Rusk were providing no HQ increase at all. He had quite large sample data.
Wether they were broken and not working (wouldn't surprise me and would explain the "coincidental" delay in not giving us Rusk description until this patch) or they were buffing something else, I guess we'll find out soon.
It's just that I wouldn't rule out that "something" was broken on them before the upcoming september patch.
Dev Tracker - News, Discussions
Dev Tracker - news, discussions
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Quote:
These, coupled with adjustments to the HQ success rate attributes found on certain equipment and foodstuffs,
mean that you should especially notice the changes for items which had a low base chance of becoming high quality.
mean that you should especially notice the changes for items which had a low base chance of becoming high quality.
The specific mention of items with a low base chance makes it sound like they are going to make the gear additive instead of multiplicative. There isn't much else they can do with it, unless they mean to increase the values on existing gear.
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
I would like to see some testing of Rusk/No Rusk crafts on a synth that is on a Tier borderline and see if HQ rates are affected. Example: Adaman Chains are capped at 94, which means that even with +14 its still a T1 synth. The wording of the JP translated page for rusk says craftsmanship strength +7. Could that be +skill and not +HQ? Could also possibly explain conflicting data on the rusk.
Disclaimer: I am in no way positing that Rusks are +skill, just wondering if it is a possible explanation.
Disclaimer: I am in no way positing that Rusks are +skill, just wondering if it is a possible explanation.
clearlyamule said: »
Should also note there is some contradictory data in that thread that never was resolved in why sometimes it made a difference and other times it didn't
[+]
Right, but his tests were on a synth with a level cap of 81 (with all +gear equipped), which is very solidly in the T2 range. What I would like to see is some tests of something that someone is at the cusp of a new tier and see if rusk affects HQ rate.
I.E. Do crafts at +10/30/50 over skill cap and see if it affects the HQ rates as if it was one tier higher. Again, I have no data to support this theory, but I've also never seen any tests that operation under a hypothesis other than "It gives HQ rate." I'm just saying, what if that hypothesis is wrong? What if rusk gives something other than HQ rate, like for instance +skill.
Long story short, I'm too lazy to test it myself.
Could explain why I HQ'd 3/12 of a T1 synth the other day (cap of 94). Could just be the RNG gods smiled on me, just think it might warrant testing... :D
I.E. Do crafts at +10/30/50 over skill cap and see if it affects the HQ rates as if it was one tier higher. Again, I have no data to support this theory, but I've also never seen any tests that operation under a hypothesis other than "It gives HQ rate." I'm just saying, what if that hypothesis is wrong? What if rusk gives something other than HQ rate, like for instance +skill.
Long story short, I'm too lazy to test it myself.
Could explain why I HQ'd 3/12 of a T1 synth the other day (cap of 94). Could just be the RNG gods smiled on me, just think it might warrant testing... :D
Foxfire said: »
I feel like they would simply alter rates of existing gear rather than buffing calculations so dramatically.
For what it's worth, regardless of the nature of the changes they are planning to make to hq rate+ gear and rusks, they are also changing the fundamental hq rate calculations, and that's fairly dramatic in and of itself.
[+]
The more I think about the shield enchantment, the happier I am. Can't count the number of times I would have preferred the even half the materials back after a synth versus the NQ. And if it doesn't break a tier, might even set my mog house up for material loss versus the stall.
[+]
Yeah the other tests which had a large enough albeit smaller sample size were T1 without rings. So could just be something weird like you cap or nearly do with ring. Maybe just higher effects on lower tiers. Maybe just lower level crafting is different for some weird spaghetti code reasons. Who knows all this is changing anyways soon
About the only thing that bothers me on the shield is the +10 skill on the enchantment for subcrafts. For a crafter dedicated enough to get this shield, their subcrafts are already capped at 70. Which means it offers no benefit other than the HQ rate + and the always HQ.
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
Right, but his tests were on a synth with a level cap of 81 (with all +gear equipped), which is very solidly in the T2 range. What I would like to see is some tests of something that someone is at the cusp of a new tier and see if rusk affects HQ rate.
I.E. Do crafts at +10/30/50 over skill cap and see if it affects the HQ rates as if it was one tier higher. Again, I have no data to support this theory, but I've also never seen any tests that operation under a hypothesis other than "It gives HQ rate." I'm just saying, what if that hypothesis is wrong? What if rusk gives something other than HQ rate, like for instance +skill.
Long story short, I'm too lazy to test it myself.
Could explain why I HQ'd 3/12 of a T1 synth the other day (cap of 94). Could just be the RNG gods smiled on me, just think it might warrant testing... :D
I.E. Do crafts at +10/30/50 over skill cap and see if it affects the HQ rates as if it was one tier higher. Again, I have no data to support this theory, but I've also never seen any tests that operation under a hypothesis other than "It gives HQ rate." I'm just saying, what if that hypothesis is wrong? What if rusk gives something other than HQ rate, like for instance +skill.
Long story short, I'm too lazy to test it myself.
Could explain why I HQ'd 3/12 of a T1 synth the other day (cap of 94). Could just be the RNG gods smiled on me, just think it might warrant testing... :D
There is also the (of course unlikely and unsubstantiated) theory that different rusks work on different level synths and do nothing for synths outside of their range. So it is possible that rusks do give a small HQ bump but the testing refuted it due to the wrong type of rusk being used for that particular synth. It's unlikely but the fact that outlandish theories like this gain any kind of traction is due to lack of visibility into the system. I'm hoping for a ton of transparency with the changes.
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
About the only thing that bothers me on the shield is the +10 skill on the enchantment for subcrafts. For a crafter dedicated enough to get this shield, their subcrafts are already capped at 70. Which means it offers no benefit other than the HQ rate + and the always HQ.
waffle said: »
Fenrir.Snaps said: »
Can we be certain that the shield enhancement stacks with the shield bonus?
It should not. Typically the enchantment bonus would overwrite the existing bonus for its duration.
There are a grand total of FOUR items currently in-game that can actually be used to check this. I just dug thru the entire armor database on bgwiki, and only the upgraded Barbarian's Belt synths (like Samsonian Belt) actually have directly matching stats between the base item and their enchantment.
Until/unless someone else can confirm that activating the enchantment on Samsonian Belt results in an increase of only STR+2, you can't state that for a fact. It's quite possible that enchantments do not function like latent effects (which is what I assume is your basis for saying that.)
I'll try to remember to make one later to test myself if no one else bothers reporting in. ^^;;
Enchantments give actual buffs that appear in the buff bar, meaning they're of a completely different type of stat increase than gear stats.
They almost certainly stack unless SE went against all logic and added a coding exception just for the shields.
They almost certainly stack unless SE went against all logic and added a coding exception just for the shields.
Odin.Geriond said: »
Enchantments give actual buffs that appear in the buff bar, meaning they're of a completely different type of stat increase than gear stats.
They almost certainly stack unless SE went against all logic and added a coding exception just for the shields.
They almost certainly stack unless SE went against all logic and added a coding exception just for the shields.
That's true. In that case, yes, they presumably stack.
Nyarlko said: »
It's quite possible that enchantments do not function like latent effects (which is what I assume is your basis for saying that.
They stack. :3 I got impatient and made one. (The buff only lasts 60sec btw.. I feel like I'll be cheating the NPC that I sell it too.)
Not a 100.0% guarantee that the shields will work the same, but definitely good odds.
Not a 100.0% guarantee that the shields will work the same, but definitely good odds.
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
About the only thing that bothers me on the shield is the +10 skill on the enchantment for subcrafts. For a crafter dedicated enough to get this shield, their subcrafts are already capped at 70. Which means it offers no benefit other than the HQ rate + and the always HQ.
Per the wording of the translation it gives +10 skill up to a max of 70? For someone trying to HQ something, it literally provides no different Tier possibilities in terms of crafting skill unless your subcrafts are underleveled.
Quote:
Defense 5 synthesis skill + 2 synthesis synthesis speed +240 synthetic material loss rate -5% high quality success rate + 2 enchantment: (goldsmithing synthesis only): synthetic material loss rate -15% high quality success rate + 3 sub skills + 10 (Upper limit 70) insignificant quality cannot be achieved
clearlyamule said: »
Is there any reason to think that it wouldn't push them past 70
Sub skills +10 (upper limit 70)
derp someone beat me while I was on the metro
If you want someone to do some testing on Coconut Rusks and them possibly having Synthesis Skill+, I'm currently leveling a Smithing sub on a mule right now on Darksteel Ingots & Sheets. I'm 56 Smithing, so any HQ currently would be a T0.
However, once I get to 60 Smithing, I can use a Coconut Rusk and test this out. Assuming Coconut Rusk gives +7 skill, it would put me at T1 status on the Darksteel synths.
However, once I get to 60 Smithing, I can use a Coconut Rusk and test this out. Assuming Coconut Rusk gives +7 skill, it would put me at T1 status on the Darksteel synths.
That would be later I think in the testing. You'd want to test something that is 1 skill away from Tier to establish the theory, then you start testing back to -6 from tier to establish potency.
This could work though once you get to 60 if you wanted to make a shot of establishing both at the same time.
Honestly, I think the best test would be testing something on the cusp of T2 or T3. You would need a much smaller test sample to determine +skill going from T1 to T2 (jump from 7% to 25%) or T2 to T3 (jump from 25% to 50%) than from T0 to T1 (2% to 7%)
This could work though once you get to 60 if you wanted to make a shot of establishing both at the same time.
Honestly, I think the best test would be testing something on the cusp of T2 or T3. You would need a much smaller test sample to determine +skill going from T1 to T2 (jump from 7% to 25%) or T2 to T3 (jump from 25% to 50%) than from T0 to T1 (2% to 7%)
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
That would be later I think in the testing. You'd want to test something that is 1 skill away from Tier to establish the theory, then you start testing back to -6 from tier to establish potency.
This could work though once you get to 60 if you wanted to make a shot of establishing both at the same time.
Honestly, I think the best test would be testing something on the cusp of T2 or T3. You would need a much smaller test sample to determine +skill going from T1 to T2 (jump from 7% to 25%) or T2 to T3 (jump from 25% to 50%) than from T0 to T1 (2% to 7%)
This could work though once you get to 60 if you wanted to make a shot of establishing both at the same time.
Honestly, I think the best test would be testing something on the cusp of T2 or T3. You would need a much smaller test sample to determine +skill going from T1 to T2 (jump from 7% to 25%) or T2 to T3 (jump from 25% to 50%) than from T0 to T1 (2% to 7%)
Yeah, that's why I said I could do the test at 60 Smithing. With Rusk, both the Darksteel Ingot and Darksteel Sheet synths would reach T1 status (assuming Rusk is Skill +7 which is what we're testing). I just hit 57 Smithing, once I get to 60 I'll begin testing.
You would have to do a statistically significant number of synths while staying at 60 if you wanted to prove it at that spot though. Probably 1000s in order to get it within an acceptable +/-. I'm assuming you're wanting to take Smithing to 70, and wouldn't want to stay at 60 long enough to actually do the testing.
Edit: I think there are 2 separate questions that would need to be answered in order on the theory.
1. Does Rusk give +skill?
2. How much +skill does rusk give?
you would only care about #2 if you had an affirmative answer to #1.
Edit: I think there are 2 separate questions that would need to be answered in order on the theory.
1. Does Rusk give +skill?
2. How much +skill does rusk give?
you would only care about #2 if you had an affirmative answer to #1.
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
You would have to do a statistically significant number of synths while staying at 60 if you wanted to prove it at that spot though. Probably 1000s in order to get it within an acceptable +/-. I'm assuming you're wanting to take Smithing to 70, and wouldn't want to stay at 60 long enough to actually do the testing.
That's easy. I simply just don't do the Guild test. That will leave me capped at 60.
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
You would have to do a statistically significant number of synths while staying at 60 if you wanted to prove it at that spot though. Probably 1000s in order to get it within an acceptable +/-. I'm assuming you're wanting to take Smithing to 70, and wouldn't want to stay at 60 long enough to actually do the testing.
Edit: I think there are 2 separate questions that would need to be answered in order on the theory.
1. Does Rusk give +skill?
2. How much +skill does rusk give?
you would only care about #2 if you had an affirmative answer to #1.
Edit: I think there are 2 separate questions that would need to be answered in order on the theory.
1. Does Rusk give +skill?
2. How much +skill does rusk give?
you would only care about #2 if you had an affirmative answer to #1.
I'm going with the assumption that the numbers are similar to what the Macarons give, from lower tier food to higher tier food. +3, +5, +7.
I'll be doing this with the assumption Coconut Rusk will give +7. That would put me at +12 over the cap for Darksteel Sheets, and +15 over the Darksteel Ingot cap.
[+]
To the above skill discussions. There is a much easier way of testing crafting skill at least as long as you aren't too high. If you are too low you can't even attempt it. It used to be 15 levels but with the update that let you skillup on stuff you already capped on that increased too. Think it is 27 now but would have to look and/or test to try. Used to be a popular way of testing caps via engaging a mob at a distance so if you were high enough it'd automatically fail but no ingredient loss if not wouldn't attempt
edit: yeah it's 27. So find a recipe you are 27 levels lower than attempt and well not be able to use food and if you are it adds at least 1 skill. No actually synthing needed and only lose a single crystal (or complete 1 synth) to get the yes/no and then a couple more for exact values if necessary
edit: yeah it's 27. So find a recipe you are 27 levels lower than attempt and well not be able to use food and if you are it adds at least 1 skill. No actually synthing needed and only lose a single crystal (or complete 1 synth) to get the yes/no and then a couple more for exact values if necessary
It's gonna be pretty funny if rusks end up being material loss -% in increments similar to salteñas/pitarus
Ok. 60 Smithing. And I have exactly 100 Darksteel Ingots in my inventory. Going to do the testing with Darksteel Sheet synths. Caps at 55. I'm 5 over the cap. Using Coconut Rusk with the assumption it will give +7 skill which will put me at T1 status.
I'll post results when I finish.
I'll post results when I finish.
clearlyamule said: »
To the above skill discussions. There is a much easier way of testing crafting skill at least as long as you aren't too high. If you are too low you can't even attempt it. It used to be 15 levels but with the update that let you skillup on stuff you already capped on that increased too. Think it is 27 now but would have to look and/or test to try. Used to be a popular way of testing caps via engaging a mob at a distance so if you were high enough it'd automatically fail but no ingredient loss if not wouldn't attempt
edit: yeah it's 27. So find a recipe you are 27 levels lower than attempt and well not be able to use food and if you are it adds at least 1 skill. No actually synthing needed and only lose a single crystal (or complete 1 synth) to get the yes/no and then a couple more for exact values if necessary
edit: yeah it's 27. So find a recipe you are 27 levels lower than attempt and well not be able to use food and if you are it adds at least 1 skill. No actually synthing needed and only lose a single crystal (or complete 1 synth) to get the yes/no and then a couple more for exact values if necessary
That is a great idea.
I can do that on my brother's char, he doesn't have any crafts leveled.
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
clearlyamule said: »
To the above skill discussions. There is a much easier way of testing crafting skill at least as long as you aren't too high. If you are too low you can't even attempt it. It used to be 15 levels but with the update that let you skillup on stuff you already capped on that increased too. Think it is 27 now but would have to look and/or test to try. Used to be a popular way of testing caps via engaging a mob at a distance so if you were high enough it'd automatically fail but no ingredient loss if not wouldn't attempt
edit: yeah it's 27. So find a recipe you are 27 levels lower than attempt and well not be able to use food and if you are it adds at least 1 skill. No actually synthing needed and only lose a single crystal (or complete 1 synth) to get the yes/no and then a couple more for exact values if necessary
edit: yeah it's 27. So find a recipe you are 27 levels lower than attempt and well not be able to use food and if you are it adds at least 1 skill. No actually synthing needed and only lose a single crystal (or complete 1 synth) to get the yes/no and then a couple more for exact values if necessary
That is a great idea.
I can do that on my brother's char, he doesn't have any crafts leveled.
You may want to hold off on that. I'm in the middle of my testing right now, and so far, the theory that Coconut Rusk gives skill+ is just about debunked. Currently 0/55 out of 100 attempts and counting.
You're assuming that it gives +7 (an absurdly huge number). Better and easier testing would be to do the under capped synthesis attempt test. There's also a notion that some rusks would only give a boost to certain skills too.
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