you sure seem upset at the very idea that context might matter
if she was running for 10-20 min, i don't see the problem
if it was hours, yea it's screwed up
she allegedly had multiple medical problems requiring home visits, and while i'm not anything resembling a medical professional, 'died 3 days later in the hospital' doesn't sound like something caused by exercise to me
9yo Ran To Death?
9yo ran to death?
What part of "exacerbated" or "aggravated" by do you fail to comprehend? I've only had to explain that part 3 times now.
Are you also missing the difference "being made to run" and "being made to run to the point of exhaustion"?
Or how about the part where she was punished for a lie told 3 years prior to the punishment?
Again, forcing a child to run to the point of exhaustive collapse is child abuse and child endangerment, *which is also illegal* - that part alone is enough to see what the grandmother did was *** up. Then there are the parts where the neighbor said the Grandmother sat down to smoke a cigarette while the child collapsed.
So why, and again I keep asking, but getting no answer, do you hold a 9 year old child, to the same standards of trained military soldiers (where it is also illegal to punish soldiers in this fashion)?
In the case of allegedly having multiple medical problems, it is a serious cause for concern that this grandmother, who would have reasonable knowledge of their existence, would make her 9 year old grandchild do something so rigorously to the point she collapsed.
Seriously. Provide an answer. I don't really care if it's even nothing but *** at this point.
Are you also missing the difference "being made to run" and "being made to run to the point of exhaustion"?
Or how about the part where she was punished for a lie told 3 years prior to the punishment?
Again, forcing a child to run to the point of exhaustive collapse is child abuse and child endangerment, *which is also illegal* - that part alone is enough to see what the grandmother did was *** up. Then there are the parts where the neighbor said the Grandmother sat down to smoke a cigarette while the child collapsed.
So why, and again I keep asking, but getting no answer, do you hold a 9 year old child, to the same standards of trained military soldiers (where it is also illegal to punish soldiers in this fashion)?
In the case of allegedly having multiple medical problems, it is a serious cause for concern that this grandmother, who would have reasonable knowledge of their existence, would make her 9 year old grandchild do something so rigorously to the point she collapsed.
Seriously. Provide an answer. I don't really care if it's even nothing but *** at this point.
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context matters and i'm not against exercise as punishment, i've said multiple times that the grandma is very likely at fault, but there isn't enough information(i'm not the only person who posted that, but you apparently have a thing for me)
feel free to write another essay about it, the topic isn't interesting enough to me to argue all night
feel free to write another essay about it, the topic isn't interesting enough to me to argue all night
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Fenrir.Camiie said: »
Forcing a kid to exercise will more than likely have the opposite effect than what's intended.
Forcing anyone to do anything usually has the opposite intended effect.
So, you don't have an answer, or your answer is to simply ignore, or take the punishment by the grandmother, out of context, and wrongly attribute it to military training without any kind of defense, then claim that context matters.
Hell, I put it into perspective several times, in multiple ways that would, or should have been easily digested. Instead, it was all dodged.
I also gave appropriate context - what this grandmother did, even prior to the child dying, was illegal and abusive - there is not a single ounce of context that can refute it, nor was anyone saying that that this child suffered simply because someone made her run - except by you.
Again, I've already iterated that there is a difference between exercise as punishment, and forcing a child to run to exhaustive collapse which would, or could aggravate or exacerbate existing conditions, to which your defense was that you didn't see it as excessive.
Hell, I put it into perspective several times, in multiple ways that would, or should have been easily digested. Instead, it was all dodged.
I also gave appropriate context - what this grandmother did, even prior to the child dying, was illegal and abusive - there is not a single ounce of context that can refute it, nor was anyone saying that that this child suffered simply because someone made her run - except by you.
Again, I've already iterated that there is a difference between exercise as punishment, and forcing a child to run to exhaustive collapse which would, or could aggravate or exacerbate existing conditions, to which your defense was that you didn't see it as excessive.
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
i'm not defending anyone, i'm saying that there is not nearly enough information available and the public shitstorm guarantees the result they want in court
it's trial by public opinion, and it's most likely not necessary in the least in this case
it's trial by public opinion, and it's most likely not necessary in the least in this case
Your arguing with a liberal, that immediately makes you a horrible person who doesn't have the right to an opinion.
Otherwise, yes there isn't enough information available, yet, to form an objective informed opinion. For now I'm waiting to see how things pan out before passing judgement. This is just like the Martin case where the left really politicized the whole thing and invented a narrative before the facts had come out. Once they came out and disagreed with the narrative, the left continued pushing it regardless of it's validity. So I'll just wait and see before passing judgement on anyone.
All I know is that judging a person based solely off of what I read in a news article is always the best way to go. I'm not even sure why we need due process of law. Vigilante mob justice is about as fair as it gets.
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palladin9479 said: »
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
i'm not defending anyone, i'm saying that there is not nearly enough information available and the public shitstorm guarantees the result they want in court
it's trial by public opinion, and it's most likely not necessary in the least in this case
it's trial by public opinion, and it's most likely not necessary in the least in this case
Your arguing with a liberal, that immediately makes you a horrible person who doesn't have the right to an opinion.
Otherwise, yes there isn't enough information available, yet, to form an objective informed opinion. For now I'm waiting to see how things pan out before passing judgement. This is just like the Martin case where the left really politicized the whole thing and invented a narrative before the facts had come out. Once they came out and disagreed with the narrative, the left continued pushing it regardless of it's validity. So I'll just wait and see before passing judgement on anyone.
Or how the law applies. After it's been explained, that what this grandmother did, was illegal, abusive, and nothing short of child endangerment.
Then again, he has no clue what a liberal is, nor that I hold far more conservative views than he does. Or that he intentionally skips over those little things called facts.
Or that the only context that matters insofar as presented, is that grandmother endangered a child knowingly. Which is you know, as I pointed out, *illegal*.
But then again, palladin9479 has never been an advocate of critical thinking on *anything* he's posted on. Ever.
Always "them damn liberals!" and "Liberals R scary!"
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
All I know is that judging a person based solely off of what I read in a news article is always the best way to go. I'm not even sure why we need due process of law. Vigilante mob justice is about as fair as it gets.
You know, logic, law, that kind of stuff.
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
All I know is that judging a person based solely off of what I read in a news article is always the best way to go. I'm not even sure why we need due process of law. Vigilante mob justice is about as fair as it gets.
You just don't know the legal system, or how it should be anyway. Whatever fits the narrative is what is expected to happen, if it doesn't happen then it'll be corrected to fit the narrative and whomever is responsible will be reeducated. If they refuse then they'll be released to elsewhere.
Due process and accurate information is largely overrated, us lowly commoners don't need that only high ranking party members need that.
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
i don't see the punishment as excessive and the piece should never have been published without a medical report
Quote:
Prosecutors say Garrard ran 9-year-old Savannah Hardin to death as punishment for a lie three years ago.
Jacobs lived across the street from the girl's home at the time. She said she saw Savannah running and carrying wood as Garrard yelled at her.
"She was crying and begging to stop," Jacobs said, Savannah fell in apparent exhaustion, still crying. "Joyce kept telling her to move it."
Jacobs lived across the street from the girl's home at the time. She said she saw Savannah running and carrying wood as Garrard yelled at her.
"She was crying and begging to stop," Jacobs said, Savannah fell in apparent exhaustion, still crying. "Joyce kept telling her to move it."
If thats not the definition of excessive that what is?
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Bloodrose said: »
Again, forcing a child to run to the point of exhaustive collapse is child abuse and child endangerment, *which is also illegal*
please quote the law that says having a child exercise to exhaustion is illegal.
Bloodrose said: »
So why, and again I keep asking, but getting no answer, do you hold a 9 year old child, to the same standards of trained military soldiers (where it is also illegal to punish soldiers in this fashion)?
i don't think you have ever been in the military. if you did you would know that there have been many soldiers that have been forced to exercise to exhaustion and it is perfectly legal.
Leviathan.Protey said: »
Bloodrose said: »
Again, forcing a child to run to the point of exhaustive collapse is child abuse and child endangerment, *which is also illegal*
please quote the law that says having a child exercise to exhaustion is illegal.
Bloodrose said: »
So why, and again I keep asking, but getting no answer, do you hold a 9 year old child, to the same standards of trained military soldiers (where it is also illegal to punish soldiers in this fashion)?
i don't think you have ever been in the military. if you did you would know that there have been many soldiers that have been forced to exercise to exhaustion and it is perfectly legal.
Quote:
Federal legislation provides guidance to States by identifying a minimum set of acts or behaviors that define child abuse and neglect. The Federal Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act (CAPTA) (42 U.S.C.A. § 5106g), as amended by the CAPTA Reauthorization Act of 2010, defines child abuse and neglect as, at minimum:
•"Any recent act or failure to act on the part of a parent or caretaker which results in death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse or exploitation"; or
•"An act or failure to act which presents an imminent risk of serious harm."
This definition of child abuse and neglect refers specifically to parents and other caregivers. A "child" under this definition generally means a person who is younger than age 18 or who is not an emancipated minor.
•"Any recent act or failure to act on the part of a parent or caretaker which results in death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse or exploitation"; or
•"An act or failure to act which presents an imminent risk of serious harm."
This definition of child abuse and neglect refers specifically to parents and other caregivers. A "child" under this definition generally means a person who is younger than age 18 or who is not an emancipated minor.
But please, provide source information as to where exercising a soldier to medical exhaustion and collapse is permissible.
Just because it's done, doesn't mean it was done so legally. Soldiers and their families have filed to have superior officers court-marshaled for doing so because it is a breach of their command. Again, someone attributing two completely different scenarios and two completely different groups of people (a child compared to a full grown, military trained adult) with excessive, cruel, and unusual punishment, versus training.
And no, Military officers can not legally force their soldiers to run until exhaustion as a form of punishment. Again, there is no answer, but merely deflection away from the question at hand.
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that law does not state that exercising a child to exhaustion is illegal.
it is not a breach of command. for instance a soldier continually fails his physical fitness test. instead of chaptering him out of the army the commander chooses to punish him with exhaustive exercise for the purpose of improving the soldier's physical fitness. there is no law stating that this is legal, the law doesn't work that way. there is no law against it.
it's not deflection, you're just wrong.
it is not a breach of command. for instance a soldier continually fails his physical fitness test. instead of chaptering him out of the army the commander chooses to punish him with exhaustive exercise for the purpose of improving the soldier's physical fitness. there is no law stating that this is legal, the law doesn't work that way. there is no law against it.
it's not deflection, you're just wrong.
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Leviathan.Protey said: »
that law does not state that exercising a child to exhaustion is illegal.
it is not a breach of command. for instance a soldier continually fails his physical fitness test. instead of chaptering him out of the army the commander chooses to punish him with exhaustive exercise for the purpose of improving the soldier's physical fitness. there is no law stating that this is legal, the law doesn't work that way. there is no law against it.
it's not deflection, you're just wrong.
it is not a breach of command. for instance a soldier continually fails his physical fitness test. instead of chaptering him out of the army the commander chooses to punish him with exhaustive exercise for the purpose of improving the soldier's physical fitness. there is no law stating that this is legal, the law doesn't work that way. there is no law against it.
it's not deflection, you're just wrong.
Also, apparently you can't seem to read very well, so let me re-iterate:
Quote:
Any recent act or failure to act on the part of a parent or caretaker which results in death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse or exploitation
The Act: Forcing a 9 year old child to carry wood around the backyard to the point of exhaustion (re: serious physical and emotional harm) to the point where she collapsed, and later died (re: DEATH)
You asked for a source, I provided, and asked for one in return, only to be met with less than anecdotal evidence, called a "what-if" scenario that doesn't even meet the criteria. Additionally, no the commander can not over-ride military protocol, and would have to report further to his superiors to determine and present a case on the basis that the soldier still has potential - who then has to also agree to undergo the training, ergo, it's not a punishment, but a choice to continue with more grueling, and punishing training.
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Bloodrose said: »
That's not punishment you retard, that's continual training.
you're the retard, it is punishment for failing to do one's duty. The commander chose at his discretion to go with an alternate punishment. And he is allowed to do that. That's why it is called "command".
Bloodrose said: »
Also, apparently you can't seem to read very well, so let me re-iterate:
The Act: Forcing a 9 year old child to carry wood around the backyard to the point of exhaustion (re: serious physical and emotional harm) to the point where she collapsed, and later died (re: DEATH)
You asked for a source, I provided, and asked for one in return, only to be met with less than anecdotal evidence, called a "what-if" scenario that doesn't even meet the criteria. Additionally, no the commander can not over-ride military protocol, and would have to report further to his superiors to determine and present a case on the basis that the soldier still has potential - who then has to also agree to undergo the training, ergo, it's not a punishment, but a choice to continue with more grueling, and punishing training.
Quote:
Any recent act or failure to act on the part of a parent or caretaker which results in death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse or exploitation
The Act: Forcing a 9 year old child to carry wood around the backyard to the point of exhaustion (re: serious physical and emotional harm) to the point where she collapsed, and later died (re: DEATH)
You asked for a source, I provided, and asked for one in return, only to be met with less than anecdotal evidence, called a "what-if" scenario that doesn't even meet the criteria. Additionally, no the commander can not over-ride military protocol, and would have to report further to his superiors to determine and present a case on the basis that the soldier still has potential - who then has to also agree to undergo the training, ergo, it's not a punishment, but a choice to continue with more grueling, and punishing training.
you're the one that can't read very well. your own words even. you said:
Quote:
Again, forcing a child to run to the point of exhaustive collapse is child abuse and child endangerment, *which is also illegal*
my anecdote does meet the criteria, you just know squat about the military. because yes the commander can override military protocol, he doesn't have to report to his superiors and present a case. That is why he is the commander. And I will give you yet another instance. I remember exercising a soldier to exhaustion because he showed up to duty while intoxicated. I punished him with exercise in order to flush the alchohol out of his system.
[+]
there is a drastic difference between telling someone to take a lap (or w/e exercise) as a punishment and exercising them to the point where they fall over and are near death... and telling them to do more.
And that pretty much is a definition of abuse and/or endangerment.
Quote:
Any recent act or failure to act on the part of a parent or caretaker which results in death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse or exploitation
[+]
falling over (collapse or exhaustion) is far from near death.
Leviathan.Protey said: »
falling over (collapse or exhaustion) is far from near death.
when its a 9yo that collapses from extreme exhaustion and starts having seizures... and is then told to get moving again...
that's not what bloodrose had stated before. he said just to exhaustive collapse. not death, not seizures, not extreme exhaustion. a person could sprint 250 meters and have exhaustive collapse. not child abuse and not illegal. words have meanings.
Leviathan.Protey said: »
that's not what bloodrose had stated before. he said just to exhaustive collapse. not death, not seizures, not extreme exhaustion. a person could sprint 250 meters and have exhaustive collapse. not child abuse and not illegal. words have meanings.
Exhaustive collapse is and falls under extreme exhaustion, as it pertains to serious physical harm which ultimately resulted in the child's death, as I have pointed out multiple times already.
And no, I didn't just say "to exhaustive collapse", but you would be able to actually see that, had you the ability to read more than what little you can feebly process.
Ad hominem, all encompassing substitute for legitimate arguments. Its getting overtime in this thread.
A 9 year old died, better use it to stand on a political soap box.
A 9 year old died, better use it to stand on a political soap box.
Bloodrose said: »
Leviathan.Protey said: »
that's not what bloodrose had stated before. he said just to exhaustive collapse. not death, not seizures, not extreme exhaustion. a person could sprint 250 meters and have exhaustive collapse. not child abuse and not illegal. words have meanings.
Exhaustive collapse is and falls under extreme exhaustion, as it pertains to serious physical harm which ultimately resulted in the child's death, as I have pointed out multiple times already.
And no, I didn't just say "to exhaustive collapse", but you would be able to actually see that, had you the ability to read more than what little you can feebly process.
you're the one that feebly processes: here is the full quote from that paragraph:
Quote:
Again, forcing a child to run to the point of exhaustive collapse is child abuse and child endangerment, *which is also illegal* - that part alone is enough to see what the grandmother did was *** up. Then there are the parts where the neighbor said the Grandmother sat down to smoke a cigarette while the child collapsed.
just exhaustive collapse.
and exhaustive collapse is not extreme exhaustion. nor is it physical harm. it's like you've never done physical exercise in your life.
You don't know what exhaustion is do you?
It's extreme fatigue.
Extreme Fatigue is harmful to the body, which causes it to collapse in the first place, by forcing a system shutdown, which can leave the body in a vulnerable state of further harm, *and can and will aggravate and exacerbate existing conditions already present*. (*This was clearly stated in my response to "comeatmebro", which already shows it wasn't the only thing said)
Exhaustive Collapse is caused by extreme fatigue, which causes physical harm to the body.
Oh, and as to exercise, I've set a record for leg pressing over 2,000 pounds in high school. So I'm no stranger to physical activity, and spent all of high school cooking in an industrial kitchen all morning, class work in the afternoon, and then football afterschool, followed by a job in the evening.
It's extreme fatigue.
Extreme Fatigue is harmful to the body, which causes it to collapse in the first place, by forcing a system shutdown, which can leave the body in a vulnerable state of further harm, *and can and will aggravate and exacerbate existing conditions already present*. (*This was clearly stated in my response to "comeatmebro", which already shows it wasn't the only thing said)
Exhaustive Collapse is caused by extreme fatigue, which causes physical harm to the body.
Oh, and as to exercise, I've set a record for leg pressing over 2,000 pounds in high school. So I'm no stranger to physical activity, and spent all of high school cooking in an industrial kitchen all morning, class work in the afternoon, and then football afterschool, followed by a job in the evening.
Physical abuse aside; forcing a child to run laps to the point of visible exhaustion as a form of "punishment", and yelling at her to keep going when she is begging to stop is serious emotional abuse. Any psychologist worth his money (I study psychology) would tell you that.
Read some psychology books on parenting, education and leadership before you talk like you have a clue and have this parenting stuff all figured out.
The only actual things you teach a children with that kind of punishment are (a) to fear you, and (b) to fear running.
Again, read some psychology books before you comment on proper parenting methods. Some of you guys in this thread sound like those people who never read up on the deeper mechanics of FFXI, but talk like they know all the best ways to play their job and aren't hurting their party. Arguments from ignorance everywhere...
@Bloodrose, thanks for bringing some reason into the thread.
Read some psychology books on parenting, education and leadership before you talk like you have a clue and have this parenting stuff all figured out.
Comeatmebro said:
if she was running for 10-20 min, i don't see the problem
Again, read some psychology books before you comment on proper parenting methods. Some of you guys in this thread sound like those people who never read up on the deeper mechanics of FFXI, but talk like they know all the best ways to play their job and aren't hurting their party. Arguments from ignorance everywhere...
@Bloodrose, thanks for bringing some reason into the thread.
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fonewear said: »
I'm guessing the kid was just trying to run away from Alabama !
You really don't know when to turn it off dude.
[+]
Prime example not to punish when you're upset, Extremely important to punish with a clear mind.
Bloodrose said: »
No, it's definitely excessive.
Even running a child to exhaustion as a form of punishment is extremely abusive.
Even running a child to exhaustion as a form of punishment is extremely abusive.
You clearly never played a sport that required endurance.. cross country, Basketball, Soccer, Football. I notice you talk allot of sh** that you have no clue about just to try and sound intelligent.
Bloodrose said: »
Federal legislation provides guidance to States by identifying a minimum set of acts or behaviors that define child abuse and neglect. The Federal Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act (CAPTA) (42 U.S.C.A. § 5106g), as amended by the CAPTA Reauthorization Act of 2010, defines child abuse and neglect as, at minimum:
•"Any recent act or failure to act on the part of a parent or caretaker which results in death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse or exploitation"; or
•"An act or failure to act which presents an imminent risk of serious harm."
This definition of child abuse and neglect refers specifically to parents and other caregivers. A "child" under this definition generally means a person who is younger than age 18 or who is not an emancipated minor.
•"Any recent act or failure to act on the part of a parent or caretaker which results in death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse or exploitation"; or
•"An act or failure to act which presents an imminent risk of serious harm."
This definition of child abuse and neglect refers specifically to parents and other caregivers. A "child" under this definition generally means a person who is younger than age 18 or who is not an emancipated minor.
Name 1 High school or Collagen coach that was persecuted under that law for athletes that have collapsed and died.
Leviathan.Syagin said: »
Bloodrose said: »
No, it's definitely excessive.
Even running a child to exhaustion as a form of punishment is extremely abusive.
Even running a child to exhaustion as a form of punishment is extremely abusive.
You clearly never played a sport that required endurance.. cross country, Basketball, Soccer, Football. I notice you talk allot of sh** that you have no clue about just to try and sound intelligent.
Football was already mentioned, early morning industrial kitchen work, and I've been weightlifting since grade 7.
Creating and upping endurance is one thing, but it's amazing how you can simply flip from one stance to another so fast. Particularly when the key part missed, is that this child was punished 3 years after the incident has passed.
I've done cross country fitness, played basketball all during Junior High (tiring, but not exhausting, big difference legally and medically), and so forth.
So who's really sounding like a dumbass here?
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