Killer Instinct: The Beastmaster Compendium

I said Decimation (3 hit WS).
WS set has 28 store tp in it.
Should be enough to calculate it, but here are the numbers:
TP Return is 218 testing in game right now.

Fixed the error :)

288 + 288 = 576

576 * 0.85 = 489.6
576 * 0.76 = 437.76

489.6 / 2 = 244.8
437.76 / 2 = 218.88

244.8 = 76 TP/hit
218.88 = 70 TP/hit

76 * 1.28 = 97
70 * 1.28 = 89

97 + 97 + 12 + 12 = 218
89 + 89 + 12 + 12 = 202

1000 - 218 = 782
1000 - 202 = 798

Since you are using 100% hit rate, both get the goal TP in three rounds. And the DW set does it faster.

Now, now children lets get along.

WAR DRK RNG got the same indirect Decimation "buff" BST got since they're all on Doli too. They just don't use it as much because Naegling/Savage Blade is generally an even better Ambu weapon/WS to abuse for them due to better job tools than BST to take advantage of Savage: WAR has Warcry/more Fencer/better sword skill, RNG gets TP Bonus bow and Domain Invasion WSD+20% arrow, DRK PDL/Smite and a lot more Sword skill than BST.

TBH, although I haven't played with it much and probably missed out on BST-focused discussion of Naegling in the past (since I've only been seriously playing BST for a few months), I wouldn't be shocked to see Naegling/SB do well (better than Decimation?) even despite BST's E rank skill as long as you have the accuracy buffs/gear to support it on a given target. Sucks that BST isn't on Blurred Shield +1 for a better Fencer build though.


Why aren't you posing the most relevant parse information? What's your DPS with each set.


How does Austar stating facts and math (and a pretty civil discussion in general) mean anyone isn't getting along? I don't see any personal insults here.

Your dual wield calculation is incorrect.
Why are you weapons killing in a dual wield set? You will always have a return of 218. (underlined in your quote)

Your goal will ALWAYS be 782 tp.
When you are in a TP set after the weapon skill, using the set I provided a page back:

782TP / 133tp per hit = 5.879 (6 hits)

If we swap both earrings to hit the DW cap (9) we lose 5 double attack and 8 store tp:

782TP / 127tp per hit = 6.157 (7 hits)

Which equates to 1 more hit to 1k tp which is an entire round of swinging (2.14 seconds SLOWER)

You're right, I was thinking 15/24 for TP and forgot about that.

I don't know what you're asking. The delays are for Dol/Agwu.

I was also referring to this, which is wrong:



127/70 = ~81-82 store tp, not 99 which is what you would have if you only lost 8.

70*1.99 = 139. 782 / 139 = 5.6somethinig, so 6 hits which is three rounds again.

ItemSet 378206
This is the set that I was using for my calculations.

The 107tp 9dw set is the Aymur AM set from the first page with Suppanomimi + Gerder Belt+1 over Ebani + Reiki

This set doesn't have any multi-attack so even though the they are in the same TP/hit bracket, the AVERAGE tp/second is much faster due to the likely hood of multi-attack providing above average rounds. A single above average round (2.14second delay) is equivalent to a max DW 11 rounds of gain (~0.2seconds faster delay).

Test it yourself, I'm working on parse data to show it in action myself.

You're missing context

https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/46016/first-and-final-line-of-defense-v20/105/#3566477

Well you had stated comparing 107 store tp with the only difference being DW values and claimed that the 24 DW set required an additional attack round, which is incorrect.

But if you're changing sets then the other one can also likely be more optimized.

Tp/second is a terrible metric, though.

Got it, thanks for your contribution.

You make progress by questioning data until all failure points have been located and you're left with the truth. Relax.

'Parse data' is beyond useless. If you believe your setup to be best, clearly state all parameters in simple terms so the math can be done and comparisons can be drawn.

If the math isn't good enough, then find out where the math is wrong so we can all have a better model. Parses have too many outside factors to be worth anything.

Look at the time stamps LOL I posted in PLD forums after Nua posted here lol :P


Explain?

set with less dw can have higher tp/second, but gets the goal tp in more time, since both get the goal tp in the same number of rounds and the one with more dw performs those rounds faster.

You are correct but if you get addition attacks, which you get more often than not, you are getting to 1k tp in 2 rounds, not 3. I am speaking from practical application not the math. After I primal rend I can get to 1k tp in 2 rounds. Not every time, but more often than not.

so can the set with extra dw

Delay (in seconds), DNC Sub, haste samba, max magic haste:
DW9 Gear: 1.92s
DW0 Gear: 2.14s

Difference of 0.22seconds

The X-hit (after WS) thresholds for TP are:
DW9:
6hit, (3 attack rounds): 86STP
7hit, (4 attack rounds): 60STP
8hit, (4 attack rounds): 38STP

DW0:
6hit, (3 attack rounds): 72STP
7hit, (4 attack rounds): 48STP
8hit, (4 attack rounds): 29STP

In order to hit the 86STP while maintaining 9DW gear you have to give up a certain percentage of multi-attack.

In order to hit 72STP with 0DW you can stack a lot more multi-attack in those slots.

If your Average hits/round goes above 3 due to multi attack stacking, then you will have a 2 round 1k tp much more statistically often than you will with a DW9 set.

I have yet to find a DW9 set that will beat out the QA stacking set that I posted.

It can, but in my calculations, the amount of multi-attack you give up in order to maintain the STP cap while also capping DW is significant enough to drop the average attacks per round below 3.

If you get a single 2 attack round series with 0DW then you save 1.7seconds over a DW9. In order for the DW9 to make up the difference, the 0DW needs to have 8 TP rounds without a single 2 tp attack round.

My data shows that the %increase in multi attack is enough to statistically guarantee it.

Furthermore you need to ensure the multi-attack procs in the first or second attack round of a series.

True, just happens a lot less from my experience.

Need to find a set with 9DW, 86STP, and enough multi to have avg of 3attacks/round now. Got me thinking

88

73

and your methodology doesn't account for the variance you mentioned awhile back, which you will get. even more so when you consider accuracy.

avg. hits/round, tp/second, both are pretty pointless if it reduces your DPS. Which maintaining haste samba can do.

I get your point of multi hits after getting the goal TP, but you aren't going to "statistically guarantee" two rounds ever.

I'm just trying to make it clear that the metrics you're using don't mean anything.

You can run this online and see exactly how often you get x rounds to TP:

Should just call the multi-attack set the Gamblers set, cuz you may not get as much tp as with DW, but you might get a lot more! I have tried it on a lot of different content and I am enjoying the crap out of it.

RNG and COR do not have melee REMAs.

I don't play DRK but isn't Caladbolg/Liberator their top dog options over Ambu weapons?

DRG I have both R15 Trishula and Shining One (also have Ryunohige not R15), aeonic is definitely better most of the time. I almost never use Shining One.

WAR's situation is not really comparable to beastmaster because warrior gets a broad range of weapon types which you rotate depending on target, whereas BST is tied to one weapon, but even with WAR R15 Chango is your bread-and-butter weapon.

NIN has the same problem we do, yes. BRD maybe too but I think most bards are grateful that they are out of pure support hell to complain.


From my viewpoint, I think it's bad design to have an easily-attained mid-game weapon be so far ahead of the other options. I have both R15 Farsha and R15 Aymur. Dolichenus is probably 15-20% ahead of Aymur and a huge amount ahead of Farsha, 30% or more? Also, as Skarwind points out, Doli does zero for our pets. It's not exclusive to our job, either, and Decimation doesn't scale damage with TP so it's a pretty static-performing WS that has no synergy with what beastmaster can do well. It sets a ceiling on our melee dps which is franky rather disappointing for a job that S-E considers now a front-line job.

There was no reason to put 120% Decimation WS damage on an axe. They could have just... Gave Beastmaster a WSD trait. SE has no clue how to arrange new gear in any balanced way where the jobs that need the most adjustments get it. So you get Naegling and Dolichenus overflow to already good jobs being even gooder.

RNG COR - which is why it's freaking nuts that Savage Blade beats any of their ranged REMA WS in a lot of situations (paired with TP Bonus +1000 ranged weapon, and RNG gets WSD+20% arrow from DI). Sword WS shouldn't be beating the best physical ranged WS for the ranged jobs (Last Stand, Jishnu), but it does, easily.

DRK - has a lot of different tools, but it's ridiculous with Naegling too (and the Ambu GA is also a freaking beast)

DRG - I wasn't talking about Shining One on DRG, I was talking about Naegling on DRG being competitive with polearm REMAs. To be fair though, this isn't like BST having the Ambu weapon as the CLEAR winner.

SAM - And Shining One on SAM is better than anything of that job's weapons except Masa, and maybe R15 Doji in the right conditions.

WAR - If you can't reliably SC and you're just spamming WS (like, Dyna), my WAR friends who know more than I do about the job seem to prefer Savage Blade on Naegling over Chango. I'm very much an amateur WAR myself (though despite that, I get great results with Naegling WAR too).


You're not just a front-line job though, the most useful current BST niche is a front line job that also has this multi-purpose tool to buff, debuff, add some damage, set up SCs, do AoE damage, etc. Which is why it's pretty disappointing that, aside from Aymur, the rest of the BST ultimate weapons don't really do much for pets. But IMO, that's more of a problem with the rest of the lame master-focused ultimate weapons for BST being such a poor reflection of the job - not something to trash the devs for because they made a strong multiple jobs physical only axe. I don't see it as "THIS ONE AXE IS TOO STRONK", I see the flaw being more that pets are too weak and are not buffed enough through high end BST weapons.


You're only changing two pieces of gear by dropping DW (in a capped delay reduction DW set). It's not some overwhelming amount of additional multi-attack. And like Austar said, you're having to spend TP to keep Sambas up (for a non delay-capped set) and not even factoring that into the discussion.

I already wrote that when he first mentioned no DW in gear (with /NIN). In capped situation going from 25%DW to 36%DW is 17% faster swings, but TP per hit drops by like 13% (not sure of rounding it drops from 72 to 63 or 64). That means in a vacuum capping DW in this example is +2.5~4% increase in TP gain. If you are using Reiki and Eabani to cap DW, they only give +4 storeTP from offensive stats. IF you are able to actually get in those slots (waist and earring) enough MA or sTP to beat that 2.5~4% increase from DW and 4stp from Reiki, then set without DW might be better.

I'm not sure why everyone is off topic over bst having something great, but Tauret currently may be the best mainhand weapon for thf due to Gleti's and I'm not having a meltdown over something that's probably going to be overturned by the next Odyssey patch.

It's not, but it's close ;)

A WSD trait would be a pretty lazy and ineffectual way of balancing BST WS, because you still end up with the situation where Naegling is better than Dolichenus which is better than all REMA axes. If the concern is WAR, it's perfectly possible to balance weapon skills for BST without giving any meaningful increase to WAR.

First of all, bump up Mistral Axe's STR mod from 50% to 65~70%. This would put it at nearly identical damage to Savage Blade, before accounting for Naegling's bonus. WAR would still prefer Naegling due to the 15% boost and lower delay, but for BST, it would make Tri-Edge a viable option. To put it in context, this would put it roughly at the same level of WS damage as a BLU or PLD using Sequence for Savage Blade.

Secondly, improve Ruinator damage. Currently it performs pretty much the same as Decimation without Dolichenus bonus, so there's plenty of room to improve it. Increase the multiplier from 1.09375 to 1.9375 and it will do somewhere around low to mid-20k damage at capped attack. Decimation with Dolichenus will still be around 20~30% stronger at this point, but Aymur's aftermath would slightly compensate with the extra multihit on WS, increased TP gain, and skillchain compatibility of Ruinator and Primal Rend.

On top of that, Tri-Edge aftermath would allow Ruinator to make Darkness with itself, as another option to make up for the somewhat lower WS damage compared to Dolichenus. Again, to put that in context, it's roughly equivalent in damage and skillchain capabilities to a PUP using Shijin Spiral with Godhands.

Neither would boost the ceiling of BST's damage capabilities, rather broadening the amount of options available, making Mythic and Aeonic more viable options. WAR, meanwhile, won't benefit much from these changes since it doesn't have access to the weapons that make these changes worthwhile.

Primal Rend could use a buff too, or removing the nerf at the very least. Again, nothing that would affect WAR.

For one it's not 'great', it merely makes up for the significant weakness of axe WS, by improving one by... 120%, more than any other ambuscade weapon. It's not something that is at all likely to change with a single update. It's an issue with axe WS being underbalanced. No other weapon type has this issue. For all other weapon types, one or more REMA weapons are better than Ambuscade weapons, axe is the sole outlier here.

Funny you mention Naegling for DRK in context of Ambuscade weapons, because (assuming cap attack) its like the worst among 5 Ambu weapons DRK can use (not counting bow and h2h) :) Its also super far behind top (like almost 50% dps behind XD).

Small Question about the Onslaught aet.

Why Nzingha Cuirass over like an ok Valorous? Is the attack big for Onslaught?

Thanks!

Actually I think if BST received the same trait that DRG has; Dolchi would become even stronger.

The WSDMG Trait DRG Gets applies on all hits of a weaponskill.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/WS_Damage_Boost

That was probably a holdover from the attack-starved BST days. Use Gleti's Cuirass or Valorous Mail in most cases. c:


I think when people suggest a WS DMG boost trait for BST, it implies that Dolichenus would be nerfed at the same time? Or to think of it another way:

"if SE knew what they were doing with BST, they would've fixed Axe WSs or given a flat out WS DMG boost a long time ago and then the Ambuscade Axe debacle wouldn't have occurred in the first place."

That was the impression I got from those sorts of comments.


I like your ideas, and you presented them well, but this is SE we're talking about...
In the context of balancing BST, they've set a precedent when it comes to lazy and ineffectual.