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Gunmen storm office of satirical magazine in Paris
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-01-23 13:14:44
Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »The real discussion is what value do these pictures hold to society. A quick laugh.
The person drawing this either has political reasons or just wants to have a quick laugh. That's it, really.
It's stupid, mean, quick, whatever, it's a quick laugh.
I don't support hurting people but I don't support being easily butthurt either. It's a charybdis/scylla situation, really.
If that's pretty much the defence of the whole discussion, then I would then argue that whoever found it funny has a hidden/unhidden motive of a bias bullying prejudice. And are pathetic. Like some sort of a school yard bully mentality. You're reacting like a school victim.
Bullying is bad, but bullying is only as bad as the person bullied make it to be. Grow up, to sum up.
Once again, it's Charybdis/Scylla. On one side people are being *** without any real meaning, it's very shallow and shouldn't be seen as a deep attack, or a targeted attack, and on the other side we have "victims" who are very often too sensitive.
Bullying is one thing, being too sensitive is another and is very real.
From my point of view, Muslims who get legit angry over these drawings are weak minded and dumb. But that doesn't mean I'll try to hurt them, and it doesn't mean they are. Everyone has a different way of seeing it.
I see it that way specifically because when someone tried to hurt me by attacking something that is dear to me, I literally give no ***as it's childish, I move on with my life.
We've all been bullied or at least someone tried to bully us, even for those of us who've been the bullies. But we all had different reactions to those situations. The key is to learn and react appropriately, which is what life experience is for, aka maturity. Getting angry in general is a proof of being immature, unwise and so on. There is no discussing it, unfortunately.
TL;DR: there are bullies but there are also little *** that get mad over something they shouldn't. And yes, they really *** shouldn't, unless they're literally 6 years old. End.
I agree, the people behind these pictures and the people who publicise them are like 6 year olds. You probably should read what he said again. Or use the sarcasm tag. Or read the first sentence of the response post.
By charlo999 2015-01-23 13:19:43
Repost of the edit.
Edited. Wording unfinished.
I'll agree, like the people behind these pictures and the people who publicise them are like 6 year olds just like the extremists. Except the people I'm defending(98% of Muslims) are just turning a blind eye to it. We can both agree doesn't make the bullying right though
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2015-01-23 13:36:05
I explained that both sides were wrong. I however also explained that people who are offended are also very often the ones in the wrong rather than just the offending side. It is absolutely shallow to think that just because people are offended, it makes them right.
You can take a random guy and make him offend 99% of the Earth's inhabitants, it doesn't mean they'll be right or the guy is bad. Do you understand this concept? Number means ***.
You call them 6 years old for drawing the prophet and they call you 6yo for wasting your time giving a ***about something you don't like. In all objectivity, you're the one that is stupid in this very situation. Not them, as much as it hurts your ***.
I used Charybdis and Scylla to explain that even in the best situation for either side, there is still as much wrong on BOTH sides. It's a situation that neither side can win for the simple reason that the offending makes no sense and the butthurt also makes no sense.
Grow the *** up already, that's the lesson from this story. And it's not just toward any Muslim offended, it's toward anyone that gets offended, ever.
By charlo999 2015-01-23 13:57:58
Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »I explained that both sides were wrong
I'm glad we've reach the conclusion we both in agreement on, that the publishers/pic makers are wrong as are the extremists. Ty.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-01-23 14:01:31
I'm glad we've reach the conclusion we both in agreement on, that the publishers are wrong as are the extremists. Ty. How are the publishers wrong again?
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-01-23 14:25:56
I'm glad we've reach the conclusion we both in agreement on, that the publishers are wrong as are the extremists. Ty. How are the publishers wrong again?
Because potentially offending people is equivalent to murdering people.
Muslims *apparently* can't help but answer the call to kill when someone depicts the prophet in any way.
Charlie Hebdo had no reason behind their publishings other than inflaming Muslims, who they *obviously* hated.
See, I'm not really cool with just insulting people for the sake of insulting people. Shock value is a thing but being overtly racist for no reason or making inflammatory remarks about groups of people 'cause you can' is pretty deplorable and flags your character as suspect.
Except the whole idea of Charlie Hebdo was to use shock satire to make political statements. The purpose was to get people thinking while using the most potent weapon: comedy - to address real issues. Of course you have to be somewhat aware of the issues, the politics of the publisher and their overall message to understand. It's not different from people who just don't 'get' the political cartoon thing.
I'm reminded of people who get butthurt at comedy shows.
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By Bahamut.Kara 2015-01-23 14:31:54
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Because potentially offending people is equivalent to murdering people.
Muslims *apparently* can't help but answer the call to kill when someone depicts the prophet in any way.
Charlie Hebdo had no reason behind their publishings other than inflaming Muslims, who they *obviously* hated.
See, I'm not really cool with just insulting people for the sake of insulting people. Shock value is a thing but being overtly racist for no reason or making inflammatory remarks about groups of people 'cause you can' is pretty deplorable and flags your character as suspect.
Except the whole idea of Charlie Hebdo was to use shock satire to make political statements. The purpose was to get people thinking while using the most potent weapon: comedy - to address real issues. Of course you have to be somewhat aware of the issues, the politics of the publisher and their overall message to understand. It's not different from people who just don't 'get' the political cartoon thing.
I'm reminded of people who get butthurt at comedy shows.
You mean context is required?
/shocked
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-01-23 14:39:48
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Because potentially offending people is equivalent to murdering people.
Muslims *apparently* can't help but answer the call to kill when someone depicts the prophet in any way.
Charlie Hebdo had no reason behind their publishings other than inflaming Muslims, who they *obviously* hated.
See, I'm not really cool with just insulting people for the sake of insulting people. Shock value is a thing but being overtly racist for no reason or making inflammatory remarks about groups of people 'cause you can' is pretty deplorable and flags your character as suspect.
Except the whole idea of Charlie Hebdo was to use shock satire to make political statements. The purpose was to get people thinking while using the most potent weapon: comedy - to address real issues. Of course you have to be somewhat aware of the issues, the politics of the publisher and their overall message to understand. It's not different from people who just don't 'get' the political cartoon thing.
I'm reminded of people who get butthurt at comedy shows.
You mean context is required?
/shocked
Common sense isn't common. :/
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By Bloodrose 2015-01-23 14:40:47
Common sense is so rare, it's a superpower.
just call me...
COMMON SENSE MAN!
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-01-23 14:41:35
Common sense is so rare, it's a superpower.
just call me...
COMMON SENSE MAN! How can we reach you, Common Sense Man?
By Bloodrose 2015-01-23 14:42:44
When your common sense is tingling, and you feel like doing something that goes against your better judgment, I'll be there!
(With Jason Alexander as Jewpa Man)
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-01-23 16:29:01
The real discussion is what value do these pictures hold to society. You've had that value explained to you repeatedly. You refuse to accept it. Why do you keep asking?
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-01-23 16:32:33
The real discussion is what value do these pictures hold to society. You've had that value explained to you repeatedly. You refuse to accept it. Why do you keep asking? We are still speculating why charlo believes the publishers were wrong.
Maybe they didn't buy into the "Truth and Justice"?
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-01-23 16:44:50
You know, this would at least be amusing if someone came in and made a serious case for privilege (etymological roots: "private law").
It's the weirdest thing: I rarely see people make arguments that actually stand up on their own power. Most of the time it's some impassioned irrationality that tries to twist the meaning of common words into something unrecognizable in a strange attempt to pretend that they're conforming to the laws and cultural ethos they're discussing.
Say "Muslims deserve to be a protected class because otherwise we'll kill you." It's the not-very-subtle undercurrent of these inept arguments and it's insulting to suggest that anyone is fooled. So be up front about it.
Mind you, being up front about bringing a threat of violence is a good way to have pre-emptive violence visited upon you, at least if you're the kind of barely-functional sociopath who thinks that threats of violence (and, indeed, acts of violence) are reasonable courses of action. Happily for the sociopaths, pretty much every government, being a pseudo-hivemind, does default to a rather primitive mindset, so eradicating the problem is generally the means of first resort.
But I'm sure we can come up with some other explanation of why Muslims (and Jews, since I need to appease the probably-not-ethnic-French anti-Semite) should be a privileged class. Privilege is generally a bought thing, hence why rich people get convicted of fewer crimes than poor people, so all Islam and Judaism and anyone else needs to do is pony up. Foot the bill for the next 100 years of universal healthcare and we'll strike the Prophet from any private enterprise (thereby bringing publicity to the action, but can't make an omelette without promoting a few satirists), ban all hook-nosed depictions of Jews, and insist that crucifixes only be drowned in organic urine.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-01-23 16:48:36
Mind you, being up front about bringing a threat of violence is a good way to have pre-emptive violence visited upon you, at least if you're the kind of barely-functional sociopath who thinks that threats of violence (and, indeed, acts of violence) are reasonable courses of action. Happily for the sociopaths, pretty much every government, being a pseudo-hivemind, does default to a rather primitive mindset, so eradicating the problem is generally the means of first resort. 1.7 million people of a certain religion falls under the "barely-functional sociopath" classification then.
That's a significant number of people.....
This group just killed 2 innocent Japanese citizens because that group didn't receive $200 million from the Japanese government. It's not like Japan did anything remotely against them either.
Doing something like that encourages the misconception that everyone associated with that group (either directly or indirectly) should die, and that's where the lines get blurry.....
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-01-23 16:55:34
By Bloodrose 2015-01-23 17:58:22
Common sense is so rare, it's a superpower.
just call me...
COMMON SENSE MAN! Unfortunately I heard somewhere that psychology had disproven common sense even exists. We're all a result of our learning and circumstance and culture and experience in that regard. Common sense is something that tells you not to touch something because it is hot. Like a stove. Things we learn that go against our inherent better judgment that cause us harm, or is antithetical to our well being.
I heard of these assertions you speak of, and they were thoroughly debunked.
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By Bahamut.Kara 2015-01-24 01:45:33
You seem to be good at gathering information at a fast rate. Its a good skill, but without a brain to navigate the net it is useless. You really don't know why a Muslim would generally find any depiction of Jesus or other faith's holy figures offensive?
This is pretty much the problem with you. You're a prime example of someone who knows something and thinks they know it all.
Go and do some reading, I'm not going to give you any more hints.
If you really believe this you should never have played any Final Fantasy games.
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-01-24 01:50:19
If you really believe this you should never have played any Final Fantasy games. So many [+]s. All the [+]s.
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By Blazed1979 2015-01-24 06:39:29
You seem to be good at gathering information at a fast rate. Its a good skill, but without a brain to navigate the net it is useless. You really don't know why a Muslim would generally find any depiction of Jesus or other faith's holy figures offensive?
This is pretty much the problem with you. You're a prime example of someone who knows something and thinks they know it all.
Go and do some reading, I'm not going to give you any more hints.
If you really believe this you should never have played any Final Fantasy games. Yes, because at the age I started playing FF games I was in a position to know. You're reaching so far you must snap. be careful.
Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2015-01-24 06:58:08
You seem to be good at gathering information at a fast rate. Its a good skill, but without a brain to navigate the net it is useless. You really don't know why a Muslim would generally find any depiction of Jesus or other faith's holy figures offensive?
This is pretty much the problem with you. You're a prime example of someone who knows something and thinks they know it all.
Go and do some reading, I'm not going to give you any more hints.
If you really believe this you should never have played any Final Fantasy games. Yes, because at the age I started playing FF games I was in a position to know. You're reaching so far you must snap. be careful.
And yet you still play and come to a website which discusses religious figures used in a video game on a daily basis
Your justification is weak
Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-01-24 07:07:37
You seem to be good at gathering information at a fast rate. Its a good skill, but without a brain to navigate the net it is useless. You really don't know why a Muslim would generally find any depiction of Jesus or other faith's holy figures offensive?
This is pretty much the problem with you. You're a prime example of someone who knows something and thinks they know it all.
Go and do some reading, I'm not going to give you any more hints.
If you really believe this you should never have played any Final Fantasy games. Yes, because at the age I started playing FF games I was in a position to know. You're reaching so far you must snap. be careful. So you find FF games offensive?
By Blazed1979 2015-01-24 08:01:08
The UK seems to be the only country in Europe that seems to have it right. Very good discussion, worth a watch.
As a result of the past 2 weeks media coverage and my own research, I've come to realize just how backward and hypocritical some of France's actions at a state level have been.
YouTube Video Placeholder
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2015-01-24 08:14:01
I'm still amazed that the "Quenelle" is mentioned in any other context than a Dieudonnné's show.
By Blazed1979 2015-01-25 13:25:43
Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »I'm still amazed that the "Quenelle" is mentioned in any other context than a Dieudonnné's show. Quote: Forty-eight hours after hosting a massive march under the banner of free expression, France opened a criminal investigation of a controversial French comedian for a Facebook post he wrote about the Charlie Hebdo attack, and then this morning, arrested him for that post on charges of “defending terrorism.” The comedian, Dieudonné (above), previously sought elective office in France on what he called an “anti-Zionist” platform, has had his show banned by numerous government officials in cities throughout France, and has been criminally prosecuted several times before for expressing ideas banned in that country.
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2015-01-25 13:56:44
He was arrested for saying "I feel Charlie Coulibaly", as he felt like Charlie (provocative) yet like Coulibaly (targeted by the state and nobody in the country to defend him except his "fans"). He attacked the double standard.
They let him go after a few hours and the court ruled that he wasn't guilty a few days ago. Nothing to do with quenelle this time.
By Blazed1979 2015-01-25 14:55:01
Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »He was arrested for saying "I feel Charlie Coulibaly", as he felt like Charlie (provocative) yet like Coulibaly (targeted by the state and nobody in the country to defend him except his "fans"). He attacked the double standard.
They let him go after a few hours and the court ruled that he wasn't guilty a few days ago. Nothing to do with quenelle this time.
Several other cases in France's recent history where freedom of speech has been trumped by people getting offended. Many of them, much smaller groups than french muslims.
I think the hypocrisy and flaws of french thought have been established. Its a dead horse. France is a funny place, and not the "funny hahah" funny
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2015-01-25 16:38:33
Yeah, things have been going to ***in the past 5 years or so. I've been living in England so I didn't think it was so bad. When I'd go back to France, things were unchanged in my home city but Paris was completely different.
I remember going to Paris last September and I was in the tube with a friend and I suddenly say "enjoy your quenelle", in the same context as a Dieudonné show. And my friend, who was fine with that joke in England, looked around, so I did the same, and people were looking at me as if I had said something forbidden.
It felt pretty weird, whereas 4 years earlier, you'd say it and nobody would bat an eye despite the joke existing for a decade.
As a general rule, growing up taught me to not speak too openly in public. First, your boss isn't your friend and is gonna buttfuck you one day, second, people get offended way too easily and following this path will make you understand that laws are better at punishing you than helping you when there is a misunderstanding.
In France (and most Western countries), you can ***talk Christianity and Islam, you're pretty much safe in doing so, legally speaking. You may have people burning down your house or killing you with a kalash, but that's about it.
If you insult Jews, or more specifically the Holocaust, you're buttfucked in every possible way. Prison, death threats and so on, rip.
If you ***talk someone who's famous, it's tricky. You can ***talk most people as long as they aren't Jewish, that's the general case, but you also have to watch out calling a black girl a monkey (said person got a few months of prison and a big fine) and calling an Arab "camel face".
I don't remember any other racist/etc insult that resulted in punishment recently. Most of the insults are targeted at ministers or radio/TV people, which are mostly Jewish. So whether you call them *** or any bad term, regardless of their religion, you'll end up being judged for antisemitism by default.
But anyway, freedom of speech is about saying what you want/think but not hurt people in doing so. There is a way to say things that won't hurt people or at the very least will not yield a punishment. Sarcasm is never a good idea in public, for instance.
On today's episode of P&R we take a trip to France.
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/1/7/at-least-10-deadinshootingatparissatiricalmagazine.html
Quote: Gunmen stormed the offices of satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo in central Paris on Wednesday, leaving at least 12 people dead and sparking a massive manhunt for the killers.
Clad all in black with hoods and machine guns and speaking flawless French, the three attackers, who are now believed to be on the run, forced one of the publication's cartoonists, Corinne Rey, who was at the office with her young daughter, to open the door. In an interview with the newspaper L'Humanité, she said the entire shooting, which left 10 journalists and two police officers dead, lasted about five minutes.
Staff members of the magazine, which has courted controversy and the offense of some Muslims for publishing cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad, were in an editorial meeting at the time. The gunmen headed straight for the paper's editor, Stéphane Charbonnier — widely known by his pen name, Charb — killing him and his police bodyguard, said Christophe Crepin, a police union spokesman on the scene.
Minutes later, gunmen were seen walking to a black car waiting below, calmly firing on a police officer, with one of the killers shooting him in the head as he writhed on the ground.
"Hey! We avenged the Prophet Muhammad! We killed Charlie Hebdo," one of the men shouted, according to a video shot from a nearby building and broadcast on French television. The video could not immediately be confirmed by Al Jazeera.
Large numbers of police and ambulances rushed to the scene, where shocked residents spilled into the streets. Reporters also saw bullet-riddled windows and people being carried out on stretchers.
Bernard Cazeneuve, France's interior minister, vowed to "track down the three criminals." He added that "all of our resources will be mobilized so that we can find out who committed this act and make sure they are punished for this act of barbarity." French authorities have said that all school trips and outdoor activities have been canceled while the gunmen are at large.
French President François Hollande headed to the scene shortly after Wednesday's shooting and said that the dead were "cowardly assassinated" and that four others were critically injured. He described the shooting as a "terrorist operation against a newspaper that has been threatened several times." He added that 40 people were being protected in the aftermath of the shooting.
Charlie Hebdo as drawn repeated threats for its caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad, among other controversial features. The newspaper's offices were firebombed in 2011 after a spoof issue featuring a caricature of Muhammad on its cover.
A year later, the magazine published more Muhammad drawings amid an uproar over an anti-Muslim film. The cartoons depicted Muhammad naked and in demeaning or pornographic poses. The French government defended free speech even as it rebuked Charlie Hebdo for fanning tensions.
"We treat the news like journalists. Some use cameras. Some use computers. For us, it's a paper and pencil," the Muhammad cartoonist, who goes by the name Luz, told The Associated Press in 2012. "A pencil is not a weapon. It's just a means of expression."
Charbonnier, among the 10 journalists killed Wednesday, also defended the Muhammad cartoons.
He told Le Monde newspaper two years ago, "I'd rather die standing than live on my knees." One of his last cartoons, published in this week's issue, seemed an eerie premonition. "Still no attacks in France," an extremist fighter says. "Wait — we have until the end of January to present our New Year's wishes."
The attack, for which no one has yet claimed responsibility, comes amid what a number of commentators have identified as rising xenophobia in Europe, with thousands of protesters in several German cities rallying earlier this week against Muslim immigration. France's Muslim population of 5 million is Europe's largest.
"I am extremely angry. These are criminals, barbarians. They have sold their soul to hell. This is not freedom. This is not Islam, and I hope the French will come out united at the end of this," said Hassen Chalghoumi, imam of the Drancy mosque in Paris' Seine-St.-Denis northern suburb.
New York–based advocacy group the Committee to Protect Journalists condemned what its deputy director, Robert Mahoney, called "a brazen assault on free expression in the heart of Europe."
I fear this will only continue to stir the growing xenophobia in Europe against Muslims worldwide. People can keep saying this 'isn't their Islam' but the extremists are the ones dominating the court of public opinion and that can only spell disaster.
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