The Last Dance II: The Show Must Go On

Namely because they're trying to learn the Naakual UL spells.

People seem to have forgotten that DNC is a thing that exists as more than a subjob... namely that more than THF can do Rudra's. (was a topic at hand with regards to Yorcia Delve and my LS last night. Someone sarcastically posited "when did DNC get Fudo" and I pointed to the last WS update. Though I made mention how Fudo>Rudra's for the tree since Darkness doesn't help drop the aura.)
Really, both BLU and DNC sorta excel in Yorcia Delve.
Neither as good as SAM (see Light SC), and BLU better than DNC (see Light), but all are potent slashing jobs so they make for good DD there.

(And I know DNC can close and open Light for certain WSs, but Shark Bite is no Rudra's... Nor is it even an Evisceration. Though Exenterator was supposed to get buffed so... there's that too.)

How does DNC excel in Yorcia Delve when the Tree has 99% Pierce resistance?

Yea dancer no love. They told me to go heavier dd but I said dancer is pretty heavy lol

You didnt really post what kind of set this was meant to be.

Haste II and Haste samba you need 14% dw
Haste II only you need 26% dw

This set is kinda in the middle of those at 22%.

Exactly. If I had to pick a single event in the game where DNC is at it's WORST, it would be Yorcia Delve. SAM, WAR, DRK, BLU, NIN, BLM (surprisingly good DD for Delve 2.0), MNK... all of these easily beat DNC for Yorcia DD slot. Hell, can probably add SCH PUP BST to that list.

I agree with the rest of FaeQueenCory's post though. The main reason you see disproportionately high numbers of BLU in WKR is that they're after spells. Also, BLU tends to attract a lot of solo players who can easily hop into a WKR.

As for current DD tiers, DNC should definitely be in the top group with SAM and THF (and the pretty rare Ryuno DRG), unless you're specifically fighting something with a special weakness (ranged, blunt, magic, etc.).

My LS has no Koga SAMs, and easily our top two DDs are our Ryuno DRG and me on Izhi/Atoyac DNC. We beat the solid Tsuru SAMs, MNKs, BLUs, and RNGs. I typically beat competent THFs, but it's also true that a well played THF in favorable conditions (able to line up SATA and close Darkness) should be able to win. BLU really isn't that close (mine doesn't hold a candle to my DNC when partying with the same LS-mates, and I'm pretty well geared), but is at least respectable and does have a lot of additional situational utility through setting appropriate spells (magical damage potential, erase-ga, sleeps, dispels, etc.)

FWIW, don't discount that DNC in addition to being a powerful DD has significant party support benefit through steps/sambas that most other top tier DDs aren't bringing to the table. My group with DRG DNC has a really potent defense down from Angon (25% def- half of the time with appropriate merits/gear) and Box Step (up another ~23% def- from lv10 when you're fighting something that lives long enough to get some steps up)... and both stack with each other and Dia and help the entire alliance. That's a bigger benefit than just Fudo Fudo Fudo, and one that doesn't show up on a parse since it affects all DDs equally...

I personally have 4 sets

• No DW set for capped haste

• 14% dw for haste II and haste samba (use very often in lowman)

• 26% dw for when im lowman with haste II but need to use fan dance (I think mine might acually be 25% till i get a better toetapper)

• Max dw that I never use really exept the few times i have no trust doing old school content.

I think the first 3 sets are very important I use them all the time. with a 22% your either gonna be under cap and swinging slow or over cap and hurting your tp return.

Fact is, even with solid damage and the highest skillchain bonus in the game and all the step benefits, we still have to pull some effort to convince ppl that DNC is worth a spot in their parties, being one of these arguments the fact that we can heal. I wish i could stand to Saber Dance and focus on SC all the time, but if things start going south in the run we're more than expected to help the healer and also hold responsability for the fail.

I know right? I waltz all the time and still put up top damage. No one listens to me when I say dancer is overpowered. And I barely into another dancer user. Just all thieves.

I even put my Sam stuff away.

I have started getting invites to D+ shout groups on my DNC by pointing out the person forming the group has no idea whether or not the pug WHM he'll end up bringing is garbage or not until it's too late.

I can't replace a WHM in difficult content but I can easily carry a bad one with a relatively low DPS loss.

I trioed the new Malboro NM a few times yesterday with a lot of healing from my DNC. It was basically my shitty Bard mule + Jassik on BLU + myself on DNC.

*** Malboro does a 1500+ damage Bad Breath after transforming, but that's another story.

I apologize if this comes off rude, nothing personal against anyone who posted, but...

Trying to convince people your DNC should get an invite because you can do some healing is a HORRIBLE idea and honestly only serves to make it harder for the non-DNC community to accept the job as it is clearly best played today (i.e. full DD, with steps/sambas as the secondary benefit). Would you try to convince people to take your WHM because you have a solid club melee setup? If not, don't convince people to bring one of the top DDs in the current game as a lousy backup healer.

Use that TP to kill stuff and laugh and the bandwagon THFs you beat instead. If people won't let you try it, you probably don't really want to be in their party anyway.

Waltz is for solo and /DNC solo. Even then, if you're in a zone where you can use trusts you probably don't even need Waltz there. There is no way you should be needed to cure anyone in a party situation, other than something like just goofing around with friends in a clearly non-serious activity. Occasionally it MIGHT be worth keeping Saber off for heavy enfeeble situations where Healing Waltz is useful and mages are too busy to erase/-na quickly. That's about it outside of very niche applications (say, holding an NM with no support with Fan Dance and self-waltzes while your ally is fighting other things).

WHM's melee ability would absolutely be a selling point if it did not interfere with their ability to carry out their primary function* to a much greater degree than spot-healing interferes with DNC.

The inability of the WHM to keep up with damage** has been the cause of literally every failed pug I've ever been in. I won't drop Saber if I don't have to, but the ability to temporarily drop from a top-tier DD to a middling one in order to act as an insurance policy against a failed run is legit added value.



*most obvious example here is COR, but melee GEO is a thing!

**and this is more an indictment of the expectations the game's community puts on any and all WHMs to solo heal the debuff-happy aoe-fest the game's become rather than any specific WHM

Why is throwing a divine waltz II once in a while and still won parse a bad idea?

Sorry, but that's BS. Why not just have all the SAM and THF sub /DNC and Waltz 3 themselves if that's your argument? My lost TP tp Waltz hurts JUST as much (if not more) as a SAM or THF losing TP to Waltz, and actually hurts the group considerably more than someone like a MNK WAR DRK whatever (any DD with less damage coming from OMGmassive WS) going /DNC and using their TP instead of the DNC.

Using TP for massive RS is a Huge Big Deal, and is a gigantic interference with my primary function. My SC damage alone beats many DD jobs' entire offensive output, sacrificing that to help heal is incredibly inefficient for the whole party when we could just kill the damn mob.

I'm not saying it isn't nice to have the ability to cure if something weird happens. Say, keeping the party up when a WHM manages to get killed. Or if you die and can still heal a bit from the backline while weakened with NFR/flourish, Trance, sneak in for a couple steps for FM>reverse, etc. But those situations should not actually be part of your strategy, ever. In a typical situation with the party actually alive and you hitting the mob, there should NEVER be a need for you to be using Curing Waltzes.


Don't join terrible pugs? It's your own damn fault if the GOOD parties don't want to invite your DNC if you're sabotaging yourself by using F'ing Curing Waltz as a selling point to get people to invite you...


Because you'd win the same parse by an extra 10% and kill the mobs faster if you stayed in Saber and didn't gimp yourself to help a healer who can't fulfill their primary job?

Seriously, this argument is like saying "my Tsuru SAM topped the parse, so there's obviously no reason a Fudo SAM would be even better". [edit: sorry, edited and snuck this one in there after below post lol]

Again, not saying NEVER USE WALTZ. But it should absolutely be an exceptional circumstance when something goes wonky, not something you should assume as a normal part of any group event.

You misinterpret him. He means he's trying to go above and beyond by saying I can also cure just to get a invite on dancer a job no one thinks is a heavy dd

And nobody's ever going to accept that DNC is a heavier DD than a lot of what they view as "heavy DDs" if you don't show them otherwise.

I don't blame people who just don't understand DNC if the DNC themselves won't help explain...

EDIT: ANY JOB can /DNC and "help cure" to go above and beyond. Of course, most people accept that it would be incredibly stupid to make your other top DDs go /DNC and waste their TP on Waltz when it could be used to benefit the whole group much more by using for WS. It is ZERO difference from having DNC main waste their TP for a role that should be covered by others.

You achieve that SC damage by waiting for other people to WS so they don't interrupt you. You have plenty of opportunities to Waltz without it affecting your WS frequency (ignoring Saber, granted), and even if RS TP scaling means it's a bigger hit than it might have been with, say, Evis, it's not affecting your Skillchain damage anyway.




Why, in your opinion, is it so hard for shout groups to fill WHM slots despite the job being so easy to gear and such an obvious path to various in-game goals?

Why do people hate the *** out of playing WHM?


The other day, I joined a shout group for D Tenzen. Not the most healing-intensive fight, sure, but whatever. We sat around for a half hour trying to find a WHM until one finally joined. She was wearing full Wayfarer, didn't gear swap, etc., but it was that or sit around for another half hour. We would not have won if I had not been HWing silence, CW5ing people in the red, etc.

I say this not to talk up DNC, but as a precursor to pointing out this run would have been totally fine without my intervention if the weak link had been anybody other than the WHM. If your WHM is bad, nothing else matters. If your WHM is great, nothing else matters.

Just making a new post for clarity.


Why does this even matter? What events are you doing where timing out is, in this the Year of Our Lord 2015, even the remotest possibility without a wipe?

Why the hell would you ignore Saber and a permanent 20% DA minimum?

Even if your WHM is awful, your party would be better served by other DDs going /DNC and waltzing themselves over the hit to the overall group DPS from losing Saber on arguably your most WS-reliant DD, using the WS which is probably the most affected by TP scaling and the greatest spike damage.


Why is it a top DD's job to cover for a shitty WHM?

And if you're really arguing that it is the DD's job (which is a dumb argument IMHO), why can't the other DDs /DNC, since it probably hurts the party LESS than making the DNC main cure them? Definitely the case if you're talking about a DD like a MNK...

I'm not saying lack of good available healers isn't a problem, but having DNC backup heal is a stupid solution that only makes it harder for the non-DNC community to see what DNC can do now. Which WE know, but others might not (yet). Let's help them see it instead of gimping ourselves? That's my plan...


If you want to spend your play time with garbage WHMs who will most likely lose you runs, go right ahead. I'll pass, and either play DNC in the role it excels at with a good WHM, or not do the event with bad people. Or WHM myself on my alt...

Because there is no easy way to quantify the amount of time I'll be out of it. WHMs don't get overwhelmed right away; if they need my help, I'm not usually out of SD for more than a minute or so.


That's absolute nonsense, and misses the point: Waltzes aren't there to replace the main healer, but to buy them time. /DNC takes JA delay and a 50-TP hit (which they generate much more slowly than I do, unless they're all SAMs) to heal themselves for 350 damage. They must constantly spam it faster than they gain it to break even.

I spend 80 TP and one JA delay to 5 them for 1600+, taking them from the red to full HP, or D2ing them all for about 850. In doing so, I have bought the WHM time, which /DNC does not have the TP>HP efficiency and speed to do.

Every single thing you're saying drips of the idea that winning a parse is more important to you than ensuring the run is a success. It must be nice to have been carried by amazing WHMs for the past decade.


That's the point. Playing DNC means I don't have to worry about this ***.

Am I seriously having to explain this argument in the Year of Our Lord 2015?

Winning faster = kill more things/do more events in same time/get more loot. Why would you intentionally choose the worse option?

Why do we even discuss things like best/better gear choices (or which DDs are good/bad)? Once you've conquered the barrier of win/lose, it's not a question of CAN you win, but one of how efficiently you can do it. That's basically every event in FFXI...


If you want to play DNC badly with lousy WHMs, who am I to stop you.

I agree. Sometimes we have to do what we can get.

Absolutely not, this isn't about winning the parse. Parse IS useful to see which of your DDs to prioritize though. I'll give you a clue, offensively played DNC should be right up there at the top with ANY other DD job.

I don't think the WHMs I normally play with are particularly "amazing", but they're competent to do their job - and that's enough that I don't have to Waltz in party events.

I didn't realize it was THAT hard to hit a Curaga macro though. I wouldn't call myself the most amazing healer around, and I can certainly manage it when I play on my own WHM...

Because I have no way of knowing, sight-unseen, if my WHM is going to be able to support 3 DDs zerging a D+ fight, ignoring all mechanics.

Anyway, the situation you're setting up is kind of weird. You are referring to a "good" group, one that is good enough to ignore mechanics/leave them all to the WHM and maybe a SCH, but they're unaware of what a DNC is capable of? They don't read update notes? They don't read BG, or AH? They don't know about the Rudra's buff, which is all anybody's been talking about the last month?

SO, this group isn't good enough to understand what a 12+ fTP means, but they're good enough to let you zerg?

Huh?


Because our rotations and playstyles are not deep enough to merit discussion, so otherwise what is there to talk about?


While the barrier for entry to any given event is not strictly-speaking high, it is often high enough that one should consider it foolish to create some risk of failure in order to complete it marginally quicker.

That people no longer do this is really the best argument I can think of for how much we have come to expect good WHMs to trivialize everything (the playstyle you are advocating for DNC is basically Fanatic's Voidwatch, yes?), which is fine, but is also why

1) you can't find a pug WHM to save your goddamn life, and

2) RDM hasn't made a comeback despite bringing a lot to the table now.


I agree it would be preferable for us all to get carried by Yagrush WHMs so we could totally ignore all fight mechanics and feel validated by our ability to run up sick digits on what are essentially reduced to target dummies, but alas!


EDIT: Anyway, as Amymy pointed out, this is just something I advertise as an incentive for an invite. Added value. Certainly neither I nor the leader hope for things to work out that way and I like staying in SD* and getting sikk SCzzz as much as the next guy.



*not for nothing, as awesome as SD is you still can't really self-SC more than once every 30 seconds and I've never had any problem getting 1500ish TP in that time without it, so it's not nearly as game-breaking as you imply

You understand that using any DD's TP for waltzes in a ZERG fight is even more stupid than anything else mentioned in this discussion, right?


A WHM doesn't need a Yagrush to be able to competently heal. I have ZERO Yagrush WHMs in my shell and don't normally play with them, yet somehow they're capable of doing the thing they were brought there to do: cure people. Even the majority of pickup WHMs I encounter can handle it. It's honestly not that hard to hit Curaga macros and try to pay attention to status effects (even assuming other support jobs like a BRD/WHM aren't already helping them out). I can do it fine and I'd rate myself a fairly average WHM.

I know there are sometimes lousy WHMs who get into PUGs. In that case, you're probably gonna lose if you need to rely on Curing Waltzes for survival. The answer is to get a better WHM, not to make someone cover for them on DNC.

To be fair, a job as reliant on self-SCs for damage as DNC, particularly Darkness when basically all the other solid DDs chain Light with each other, is basically a non-starter for a zerg anyway.

But man, everybody BUT the WHM sure wants to ignore mechanics and hit ctrl 1


"well i haven't tried doing this and am totally dismissive of the very idea but there's no way a group with a bad whm could find its *** with two hands because _______"

I'll just stick to the part of "Sometimes we do pugs and don't know what to expect".

My LS is pretty much aware i can overparse everybody in some fights only with the SC... but there are always that lot that doesn't read forums and news and w/e... specially when it comes to pugs, you are very prone to hear that "do you have another job?"...

This has been changing tho...