Kathryn Knott Case

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Kathryn Knott Case
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-25 23:55:29
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Lye said: »
She will lose any wrongful termination suit because:

1) PA is an at-will state.

2) Standard hospital employment contracts state that any unethical behavior is grounds for termination.

3) Proof of illegal termination requires evidence of the following:

a) discrimination: based on race, gender, age, national origin, religion or disability.

b) retaliation: reporting the employer for breaking the law

c) character defamation: (hehe, she's done enough of that herself)

d) Forcing her to quit by making the work environment unbearable.


Her only chance is discrimination based on gender and that's a pretty tough to prove.
Your understanding of the EEOE guidelines needs some fine tuning. She can most definitely file a case and it probably would be settled before it ever got to court, but she has grounds to get it he whole way to court.

1. irrelevant, see EEOE
2. her behavior is in question, not determined
3. incorrect, not hiring somebody or firing somebody because of an arrest (not a conviction) is most certainly grounds for a lawsuit, especially more so if it's unrelated to your job functions (although it would be easily said that it's related in this particular case).

Now EEOE is guidelines, but judges have a history of siding with them.



Fenrir.Candlejack said: »
Jetackuu said: »
Fenrir.Candlejack said: »
Newsflash: Jet tries to keep trolling, gives the mods ample ammunition against himself.
News flash: CJ keeps accusing others of what he himself does and pretends to take the high ground. You've been told time and time again, and yet you keep trolling, you're just going to get the report button, as that's about the most energy you deserve.
Same goes for you, troll.
not at all, troll.
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-25 23:56:19
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Lye said: »
I, cruelly, like to imagine the possibility in which she was going to apply to medical school in the near future.


Quote:
"Our next candidate for consideration is a wack-*** white *** that was charged with battery, photographed patients x-rays and posted them on social media, and has attracted national spotlight for her misdeeds. All in favor?"
which would be grounds for a lawsuit as well.
 Lye
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By Lye 2014-09-26 00:08:57
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The EEOE only investigates discrimination based on:

1) Age
2) Disability
3) Equal Compensation
4) Harassment
5) National Origin
6) Pregnancy
7) Race/Color
8) Religion
9) Retaliation
10) sex
11) Sexual Harassment


They won't find enough evidence likely because she has never filed complaint. Even if she did, do you think there's a slew of witnesses to jump to corroborate her fictional account?

At-will means they can fire you for any reason except:

1) Union member
2) Title VII
3) Contract stating grounds for termination (DING DING DING)
4) Employee handbook outlining procedures for termination that were not followed.

Otherwise... any reason, no reason, you're gone.

Period.
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-26 00:09:46
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Case law says otherwise son.
 Lye
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By Lye 2014-09-26 00:11:04
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Jetackuu said: »
Lye said: »
I, cruelly, like to imagine the possibility in which she was going to apply to medical school in the near future.


Quote:
"Our next candidate for consideration is a wack-*** white *** that was charged with battery, photographed patients x-rays and posted them on social media, and has attracted national spotlight for her misdeeds. All in favor?"
which would be grounds for a lawsuit as well.

Haha, do enlighten us as to how you would try to do that!
 Lye
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By Lye 2014-09-26 00:13:19
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Jetackuu said: »
Case law says otherwise son.
If any of the following apply, precedent doesn't matter boiiiiiiiii


1) The facts of the cases differ.
2) The decision in the previous case was from a court in a different jurisdiction.
3) The decision in the previous case came from a lower court.
4) There is a compelling public policy reason for not following the previous decision.
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-26 00:13:44
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Lye said: »
Jetackuu said: »
Lye said: »
I, cruelly, like to imagine the possibility in which she was going to apply to medical school in the near future.


Quote:
"Our next candidate for consideration is a wack-*** white *** that was charged with battery, photographed patients x-rays and posted them on social media, and has attracted national spotlight for her misdeeds. All in favor?"
which would be grounds for a lawsuit as well.

Haha, do enlighten us as to how you would try to do that!
sexual discrimination, racial discrimination, and discrimination based on a non-conviction.

You just can't go around firing people and not hiring or not allowing them in programs for charges unless they've convicted. But arguing this further is kinda pointless, only time will tell.
 Lye
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By Lye 2014-09-26 00:15:01
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Jetackuu said: »
Lye said: »
Jetackuu said: »
Lye said: »
I, cruelly, like to imagine the possibility in which she was going to apply to medical school in the near future.


Quote:
"Our next candidate for consideration is a wack-*** white *** that was charged with battery, photographed patients x-rays and posted them on social media, and has attracted national spotlight for her misdeeds. All in favor?"
which would be grounds for a lawsuit as well.

Haha, do enlighten us as to how you would try to do that!
sexual discrimination, racial discrimination, and discrimination based on a non-conviction.

You just can't go around firing people and not hiring or not allowing them in programs for charges unless they've convicted. But arguing this further is kinda pointless, only time will tell.

They don't have to give a reason.

You can know it's because of X.

They can say "you're not our candidate" and the conversation is overrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


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By Jetackuu 2014-09-26 00:15:15
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Lye said: »
Jetackuu said: »
Case law says otherwise son.
If any of the following apply, precedent doesn't matter boiiiiiiiii


1) The facts of the cases differ.
2) The decision in the previous case was from a court in a different jurisdiction.
3) The decision in the previous case came from a lower court.
4) There is a compelling public policy reason for not following the previous decision.
I wasn't talking about precedent, I was just refuting your assertion.
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-26 00:16:04
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Lye said: »

They don't have to give a reason.

You can know it's because of X.

They can say you're not our candidate and the conversation is overrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

As for jobs, if they're not hiring you due to a conviction, they actually have to let you know, under the law.

edit: not the practicality of proving that now, is another story.
 Lye
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By Lye 2014-09-26 00:20:22
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Jetackuu said: »
Lye said: »

They don't have to give a reason.

You can know it's because of X.

They can say you're not our candidate and the conversation is overrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

As for jobs, if they're not hiring you due to a conviction, they actually have to let you know, under the law.

edit: not the practicality of proving that now, is another story.

No they don't. Only if it's the gov or union my man

http://humanresources.about.com/od/selectemployees/qt/must-employers-tell-applicants-why-they-werent-hired.htm
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-09-26 00:37:41
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Just a clarification on at-will employment... They cannot fire you for ANY reason not covered under EEOE or union affiliation. They simply have the right to end your employment without a reason. If they stated they were firing her because of an unsubstantiated accusation of some policy or HIPAA violation or because she was charged with a crime, she most certainly would have grounds for a wrongful termination suit. If they said simply "your services are no longer required", they'd be fine. It doesn't mean she'd win, she'd still have a heck of a time proving it in court, they'd most likely settle it anyway, but it is unlawful to terminate someone under at-will if you declare a reason that isn't legal. Most companies in that situation would simply lay an employee off, leaving them eligible for unemployment benefits.

They also didn't cite the results of any internal investigation, though it is probable that they found her in violation of some internal ethics policy. If she wasn't proven to have violated an internal policy, or if there is a policy against being charged with a crime, that is deeply disturbing.
[+]
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-09-26 02:01:23
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Odin.Jassik said: »
They also didn't cite the results of any internal investigation, though it is probable that they found her in violation of some internal ethics policy. If she wasn't proven to have violated an internal policy, or if there is a policy against being charged with a crime, that is deeply disturbing.

Anyone who works with patients is subject to an ethics policy/comittee either via the state or the hospital, that's a given. Every individual who works with patients understands there is an ethics policy. You don't go into any area of the medical professional(e.g. nursing, physician, respiratory therapist, CNA, tech, etc) w/o understanding ethics. Additionally, most curriculum include a course on ethics.

Typically anyone working with patients falls under a state's department of consumer affairs, which also has sub boards/bureaus (e.g. medical board, vocational nursing, nursing, techs etc...)Each of these boards/bureaus has ethics committees.

It should be noted if their respective state board committee revokes their license or ability to work with patients, they cannot perform the basic duties of the job.

She was either going to loose her job due to: (1) ethics policy/committee via the hospital or state (2) patient privacy issue and/or (3) conviction of the crimes.

(1) is the easiest to nail on her, and something that no attorney can argue since again working with patients is a privilege not a right.
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-26 02:21:33
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@Bacon:

What ethics policy is she in violation of? by being charged with a crime? Won't hold up.

She's not in violation of HIPAA

It's unlikely she'll be convicted at this rate, looks to be another politically motivated trial, some other instances of this you've been outright against, this is unlike you.
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-09-26 02:27:50
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Jetackuu said: »
What ethics policy is she in violation of? by being charged with a crime? Won't hold up.

Hospitals do have very specific ethics codes but they also have ethics committees, which serve to address cases that aren't covered by specific ethics codes of the hospital. (Remember we're at this point just talking about the hospital ethics, the minute her case goes to the state board committee it's a completely different can of worms.)

I can't find the one on her specific hospital group(Abington Health). But this link should give u an example:

New York Methodist Ethics Committee

Quote:
Ethics Committee
New York Methodist Hospital has an interdisciplinary Bioethics Committee that considers all ethics issues arising in the care of patients at New York Methodist Hospital. The members of the Bioethics Committee include physicians, nurses, administrators, social workers, trustees, chaplains, community representatives and, when necessary, an ethicist. The Committee has three principal functions:

Education - The Committee develops programs to educate health care providers and patients concerning ethics issues arising in patient care.
Policy Recommendations - The Committee reviews, discusses and recommends necessary changes to existing policy and, where indicated, initiates, discusses and drafts new policy recommendations concerning ethics issues arising in patient care.
Case Consultation - The Committee acts in an advisory capacity to identify ethics/legal issues, establishing the ethics/legal framework of case discussions, facilitating communication among interested parties and providing the forum for mediating disputes including, but not limited to, Do Not Resuscitate Orders and Health Care Proxies.
Case consultations often revolve around specific patient situations, often involving difficult ethical and/or legal decisions that are referred to the Committee for discussion and/or mediation among interested parties. Patients, family members or health care agents, physicians or any employee of New York Methodist Hospital directly involved in a patient's health care may request a case consultation.

Examples of topics covered in these kinds of consultations include:

Identifying the appropriate decision maker for a patient who cannot make and/or communicate his or her wishes.
Resolving treatment dilemmas when there is a conflict between the physician's suggested treatment plan and the patient's religious or cultural beliefs.
Determining whether a treatment plan is less than optimal because of insurance restrictions and exploring options.
Mediating differences of opinion concerning treatment among family members Discussing the benefits and burdens of refusal of treatment for an incapacitated patient.
Considering withholding or withdrawing of life-sustaining treatments, such as ventilators or feeding tubes.
The consultation process provides assistance in discussing the ethical implications surrounding the patient's care and will offer guidance and support to the individuals involved. Consultations are confidential. The members of the Bioethics Committee who participate in the case consultation will attempt to clarify the issues raised and may make recommendations. However, final decisions still rest with the patient and/or family members.
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-26 02:30:04
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Your point? There's no evidence of any ethics violations, you're just attempting to defame now.

edit: I certainly hope none of you are ever out with your buddies when a scuffle happens with a minority group.
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-09-26 02:35:10
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Jetackuu said: »
Your point? There's no evidence of any ethics violations, you're just attempting to defame now.

Evidence? or argument? I can easily argue that based on her releasing the photos of patient documents that their is a concern of patient confidentiality with this particularly employee. I can argue that her posting such photos show a total disregard for ethics. That's the only evidence a hospital committee or state board needs.

Working with patients isn't a legal right, it's a privilege.

EDIT: I'll give u a perfect example of how stupid these rulings can be. My friend told a colleague several years ago he was drinking more than usual outside of work due to a family passing, but nothing on par to alcoholism. The colleague reported him to the medical board. The medical board placed his ability to practice on probation and mandated random drug tests for alcohol for a period of time

The state board's argument was that a "possible" drinking problem could carry into work and impair his judgment and therefor place patients at risk.
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-26 02:39:34
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Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
Jetackuu said: »
Your point? There's no evidence of any ethics violations, you're just attempting to defame now.

Evidence? or argument? I can easily argue that based on her releasing the photos of patient documents that their is a concern of patient confidentiality with this particularly employee. I can argue that her posting such photos show a total disregard for ethics. That's the only evidence a hospital committee or state board needs.

Working with patients isn't a legal right, it's a privilege.

EDIT: I'll give u a perfect example of how stupid these rulings can be. My friend told a colleague several years ago he was drinking too much outside of work due to a family passing. The colleague reported him to the medical board. The medical board placed his ability to practice on probation and mandated random drug tests for alcohol.

The state board's argument was that a "possible" drinking problem could carry into work and impair his judgment and therefor place patients at risk.

That's not stupid at all, it's a patient safety concern when a doctor has a substance abuse problem.

Your arguments are moot and wouldn't hold up under review, unless there's a policy or law she's actively violating, which there's no evidence of.

They'll have to defend their termination, and with the evidence presented to us currently they don't have that defense, that could change at any time however.

This is nothing more than a witch hunt at the moment.
 Bahamut.Baconwrap
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-09-26 02:40:40
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Jetackuu said: »
That's not stupid at all, it's a patient safety concern when a doctor has a substance abuse problem.

Your arguments are moot and wouldn't hold up under review, unless there's a policy or law she's actively violating, which there's no evidence of.

EDIT: Hold up under review where? Court? Court's don't grant the right to work with patients lol

Working with patients is a privilege not a legal right.
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-26 02:42:12
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Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
Jetackuu said: »
That's not stupid at all, it's a patient safety concern when a doctor has a substance abuse problem.

Your arguments are moot and wouldn't hold up under review, unless there's a policy or law she's actively violating, which there's no evidence of.

Again she has no legal protections that entitle her to work with patients. Working with patients is a privilege not a legal right.

I never said that she has that right, but she has certain cause for a civil suit for wrongful termination, as it stands.

Unless she violated a written rule, or is found guilty of her charges. but even on the latter, she should have been placed on suspension until the trial was over.
 Bahamut.Baconwrap
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-09-26 02:45:21
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She might have an case for a civil suit against the hospital, if it's just the hospital's ethics committee, with absolutely no involvement from the state. If it's the state she's completely ***.

EDIT: Assuming the hospital filed a complaint against her with the state, which I'm assuming they did. If the state ethics committee of her specific board finds her in question of ethics, she automatically cannot perform the basic duties of the job.
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-26 02:47:25
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Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
Jetackuu said: »
That's not stupid at all, it's a patient safety concern when a doctor has a substance abuse problem.

Your arguments are moot and wouldn't hold up under review, unless there's a policy or law she's actively violating, which there's no evidence of.

EDIT: Hold up under review where? Court? Court's don't grant the right to work with patients lol

Working with patients is a privilege not a legal right.
Holy ***you're being *** dense tonight.
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-26 02:48:01
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Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
She might have an case for a civil suit against the hospital, if it's just the hospital's ethics committee, with absolutely no involvement from the state. If it's the state she's completely ***.
Again: no code of ethics has been violated, unless you have some proof that hasn't been presented.
 Bahamut.Baconwrap
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-09-26 02:54:24
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Jetackuu said: »
Again: no code of ethics has been violated, unless you have some proof that hasn't been presented.

Can you prove that she didn't violate any ethics policy specific to the hospital? Can you prove that the committee didn't find her in question of hospital ethics?

No because that information isn't exactly easy to get online. lol. It would make it a lot easier for this discussion. The thing I'm trying to point out is that a hospital ethics committee extends beyond the written ethics policy and can review cases on an individual basis.

As in the case of NYC Methodist:
Quote:
Case Consultation - The Committee acts in an advisory capacity to identify ethics/legal issues, establishing the ethics/legal framework of case discussions, facilitating communication among interested parties and providing the forum for mediating disputes including, but not limited to, Do Not Resuscitate Orders and Health Care Proxies.
Case consultations often revolve around specific patient situations, often involving difficult ethical and/or legal decisions that are referred to the Committee for discussion and/or mediation among interested parties. Patients, family members or health care agents, physicians or any employee of New York Methodist Hospital directly involved in a patient's health care may request a case consultation.
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-26 03:02:50
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Yet I'm not the one trying to lynch somebody here based on prejudices.

As for the state bit: she probably wouldn't even be able to be pulled in front of a state board as she doesn't have a state license, so that remains questionable.

So what we have here is a spoiled white girl who has an alcohol problem who's being accused of helping assault two gay guys on a night she was out with a group of friends, and a public lynching of her, her character and a termination based on what seems to be more of the latter than the former.


Supposed "hate speech" on twitter: debunked, not hate speech but definitely not politically correct.

Drinking problem: check
complains about her job in public, but nothing real vulgar
couple of rather stupid comments, check (I know we've all made worse).

accused of HIPAA violations: no concrete evidence of that.

so what are you trying to prove here? that you think she may be a vile *** and she should be lynched before she has her chance in court?

or just parading your rampant ignorance of the healthcare system based on your anecdotal evidence of your friends who at least one of which also has a drinking problem?

or trying to say that she doesn't have a case in civil court for a wrongful termination suit if she's cleared of all charges, not in violation of a law, or written policy by her place of employment?

which is it?
 Bahamut.Baconwrap
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-09-26 03:07:24
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Jetackuu said: »
so what are you trying to prove here? that you think she may be a vile *** and she should be lynched before she has her chance in court?
Court's don't grant the right to work with patients. Working with patient's isn't a legal protected right.

Jetackuu said: »
or trying to say that she doesn't have a case in civil court for a wrongful termination suit if she's cleared of all charges, not in violation of a law, or written policy by her place of employment?
Court's don't grant the right to work with patients. Working with patient's isn't a legal protected right.
Jetackuu said: »
which is it?
Court's don't grant the right to work with patients. Working with patient's isn't a legal protected right.
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-09-26 03:12:30
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Anyways if you're done with the insults here's an interesting read:

Quote:
"I think she could be looking at legal liability," says Kaplan, who directs the Division of Medical Ethics at NYU Langone Medical Center. "If there's enough information in the tweets for others to deduce who's being discussed, that's a clear HIPAA violation."

In this case, "others" include workers at the hospital that employs Knott but who still are not entitled to know medical information that's supposed to be kept confidential by a patient's immediate health-care providers.

Just because, say, a hospital HR employee sees a person wheeled into the ER doesn't mean the HR person is entitled to know that the person fell off a ladder while cleaning gutters in the rain. But the HR person might read a tweet, put 2 and 2 together and - voila! - there goes the patient's privacy.

Then there's the wild unkindness of Knott's tweets. Hospitalized people are not at their best. They're half-dressed, feel like crap and are poked and prodded in their most intimate places by fully clothed people privy to their most personal health information. They're terribly vulnerable, deserving of compassion and respect, even if - yes - their own actions may have contributed to their misery.

For Knott to denigrate them, whether naming them or not, is contemptible and, as Caplan says, "Sick people are not supposed to be used for a hospital worker's entertainment."

Like this ditty, tweeted by Knott on June 17, 2013: "My first gun shot wound! #awesome."

I doubt that the victim concurred.

Knott's career is now at risk, as it should be. She belongs nowhere near the sick, whose trust and dignity she violated every time she publicly blabbed about their condition, how they got that way and what she thought about it.

She ought to be fired.

Stat.

Polaneczky: Tweets denigrated the sick and injured
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-26 03:14:17
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Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
Jetackuu said: »
so what are you trying to prove here? that you think she may be a vile *** and she should be lynched before she has her chance in court?
Court's don't grant the right to work with patients. Working with patient's isn't a legal protected right.

Jetackuu said: »
or trying to say that she doesn't have a case in civil court for a wrongful termination suit if she's cleared of all charges, not in violation of a law, or written policy by her place of employment?
Court's don't grant the right to work with patients. Working with patient's isn't a legal protected right.
Jetackuu said: »
which is it?
Court's don't grant the right to work with patients. Working with patient's isn't a legal protected right.
You keep saying this, when nobody is arguing that.
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-26 03:15:54
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Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
Anyways if you're done with the insults here's an interesting read:

I'm sorry, you're insulted by the truth? Don't like that you're being called out for being a prejudiced *** who's going on a which hunt?
 Bahamut.Baconwrap
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-09-26 03:19:08
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Jetackuu said: »
who's going on a which hunt?



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