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Does islam require forced conversions?
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-24 19:00:15
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Their priorities are spot on. Rich people come before idiots torching your 9.99 Chinese made Stars 'n stripes. Hopefully you set yourself on fire burning a flag rather than actually airing your grievances in a constructive manner.
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Quetzalcoatl.Maldini
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By Quetzalcoatl.Maldini 2014-09-25 03:22:54
Getting back to the OP, I thought I would leave you with 4 very predominant voices in the modern world who are authorities in their own specific fields, all of them share the same frustration with the state of the muslim world.
1. Dr Adnan Ibrahim - YouTube Video Placeholder Perhaps the most important Muslim Scholar in the world today. Those that disagree with him say he is "one of the most intelligent and brightest minds within the Muslim world", those that agree with him say "his thought and outlook has solved decade old questions and has cleansed the eyes of muslims from the dust"
His credentials can be found online easily.
He covers a wide variety of topics.
*Aqeedah - Aqeedah refers to those matters which are believed in, with certainty and conviction, in one's heart and soul. They are not tainted with any doubt or uncertainty. The Arabic word 'aqeedah stems from the root 'aqada, which conveys meanings of certainty, affirmation, confirmation, etc.
*Islamic History Revisionist - If you want to hear an objective report on Islamic History, I would watch many of his lectures about the subject. He doesn't look at the past through rose-tinted lenses. More than anything he points out historical deviance from the religion by empires and how their remnants are keeping Muslims around the world tied down to ideas that are in direct conflict with Islam. He isn't an apologist either.
*Politics - More precisely, Jihadi warfare and why it is absolutely invalid in today's world.
*Women - What does the Quran really say about women. What is a woman's role, and what rights does a woman have in Islam. This is particularly one of his favorite topics and the results might surprise you.
*International Relations - again, I would watch what he has to say.
2. Dr Shabir Ali -
(Here's his take on forcing others to convert to Islam, relevant to the OP) YouTube Video Placeholder A pragmatic Islamic scholar, with deep knowledge of Christianity and monotheism. Few rival him in debate, which is his focus. He has thousands of videos on youtube debating Athiest, catholics, baptists, protestants, other Islamic Scholars etc.
3. Hamza Yousif - He is very much a "Faith" and "Moral" Preacher in some aspects. An American revert to Islam (we believe everyone is born Muslim thus we refer to people who later in their life become muslim as reverts) perhaps the person who is responsible for my journey of looking into things for myself. I met him in 2010, and there wasn't anything I threw at him that he didn't have an eloquent and convincing answer for. He also served as advisor to President George W. Bush on more than one occasion and was invited to the white house on more than 1 occasion.
He is very frustrated with Terrorism. YouTube Video Placeholder
4. Dr Zakir Nakir - Basic Islamic answers, but he is no way a basic person in any way shape or form. YouTube Video Placeholder
EDIT: Dr Adnan Ibrahim and Dr Zakir Nakir disagree on this matter. (Wishing Christians a Merry Christmas)
Adnan Ibrahim's stance: It is obligatory to wish them Merry Christmas. It doesn't in any way mean you agree that Jesus is the son of God.
Zakir Nakir: Believes the practice perpetuates an idea which Muslims disagree with and is in contradiction to the essence of Islam - That God has no partners, no sons, no brothers, no children, no wives, no equals.
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By Ramyrez 2014-09-25 07:13:19
Good morning everyone.
I'm just here to remind you there's an alternative.
A choice which will lead us all to peace in madness, together.
Choose Cthulhu.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-25 07:15:34
Good morning everyone.
I'm just here to remind you there's an alternative.
A choice which will lead us all to peace in madness, together.
Choose Cthulhu.
Psh, we all know the Flying Spaghetti Monster can whip Cthulhu's *** anyday.
By Ramyrez 2014-09-25 07:20:33
Good morning everyone.
I'm just here to remind you there's an alternative.
A choice which will lead us all to peace in madness, together.
Choose Cthulhu.
Psh, we all know the Flying Spaghetti Monster can whip Cthulhu's *** anyday.
I must remind you that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is merely a primative's view of Azathoth, warped in humorous fashion by today's unknowing internet generation, whose subconcious, even in their blessed ignorance, knows not to speak his name.
As it was written:
"Outside the ordered universe that amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the center of all infinity—the boundless daemon sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time and space amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin monotonous whine of accursed flutes."
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By Artemicion 2014-09-25 07:36:13
Ra-men
By Ramyrez 2014-09-25 07:38:36
Patron saint of college students and hardened arteries.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-25 07:41:17
Mumm-ra
By Artemicion 2014-09-25 07:41:57
Patron saint of college students and hardened arteries.
Also patron saint (and diet) of 20-something year old bachelors living with mediocre wages and an uncanny affinity with expensive computer hardware.
YouTube Video Placeholder
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By Ramyrez 2014-09-25 07:47:40
Patron saint of college students and hardened arteries.
Also patron saint (and diet) of 20-something year old bachelors living with mediocre wages and an uncanny affinity with expensive computer hardware.
YouTube Video Placeholder
That's just the transitional phase betwixt the "college student" and "hardened arteries".
Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-09-25 14:16:17
I only just realized that the title of this thread says conversions, all these days I always read it as conversations.
It did sound strange, forced conversations...now it all makes sense!
By Ramyrez 2014-09-25 14:18:06
I only just realized that the title of this thread says conversions, all these days I always read it as conversations.
It did sound strange, forced conversations...now it all makes sense!
The thread itself has been a bit of a forced conversation.
Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-09-25 15:03:55
Metric is far better than US units. We should force conversion.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-25 15:16:15
US units are far better than metric. We should force conversion. Agreed.
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2014-09-25 15:20:36
Muh feet, ounces, inches, yards, oz, whatever else makes my brain melt because it makes no sense and they have to add the conversion in metrics next to it for normal people to understand.
On the bright side, due to their shitty units, you get something like 53/56cl instead of 50cl of liquid.
By Bloodrose 2014-09-25 15:21:15
metric units are far better than US units. We should force conversion. I agree that the US should stop dragging it's feet and catch up to the rest of the First World.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-25 15:22:18
You just can't handle how the US does things.
By Bloodrose 2014-09-25 15:23:28
How the US does things backwards
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-25 15:27:11
Psh.
More like the rest of the world does things backwards.
Damn Canadians.
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By Bloodrose 2014-09-25 15:29:46
Psh.
More like the rest of the world does things backwards.
Damn Canadians. I find this humorous.
Because. Canadians.
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Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
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Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-25 21:02:19
Metric is far better than US units. We should force conversion. Fascist!
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By fonewear 2014-09-25 21:09:27
The Metric system is the tool of the devil !
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-25 22:41:10
Metric is far better than US units. We should force conversion. qft
Valefor.Mithano
Server: Valefor
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By Valefor.Mithano 2014-09-26 16:20:17
Quetzalcoatl.Maldini said: »Getting back to the OP, I thought I would leave you with 4 very predominant voices in the modern world who are authorities in their own specific fields, all of them share the same frustration with the state of the muslim world.
1. Dr Adnan Ibrahim - YouTube Video Placeholder Perhaps the most important Muslim Scholar in the world today. Those that disagree with him say he is "one of the most intelligent and brightest minds within the Muslim world", those that agree with him say "his thought and outlook has solved decade old questions and has cleansed the eyes of muslims from the dust"
His credentials can be found online easily.
He covers a wide variety of topics.
*Aqeedah - Aqeedah refers to those matters which are believed in, with certainty and conviction, in one's heart and soul. They are not tainted with any doubt or uncertainty. The Arabic word 'aqeedah stems from the root 'aqada, which conveys meanings of certainty, affirmation, confirmation, etc.
*Islamic History Revisionist - If you want to hear an objective report on Islamic History, I would watch many of his lectures about the subject. He doesn't look at the past through rose-tinted lenses. More than anything he points out historical deviance from the religion by empires and how their remnants are keeping Muslims around the world tied down to ideas that are in direct conflict with Islam. He isn't an apologist either.
*Politics - More precisely, Jihadi warfare and why it is absolutely invalid in today's world.
*Women - What does the Quran really say about women. What is a woman's role, and what rights does a woman have in Islam. This is particularly one of his favorite topics and the results might surprise you.
*International Relations - again, I would watch what he has to say.
2. Dr Shabir Ali -
(Here's his take on forcing others to convert to Islam, relevant to the OP) YouTube Video Placeholder A pragmatic Islamic scholar, with deep knowledge of Christianity and monotheism. Few rival him in debate, which is his focus. He has thousands of videos on youtube debating Athiest, catholics, baptists, protestants, other Islamic Scholars etc.
3. Hamza Yousif - He is very much a "Faith" and "Moral" Preacher in some aspects. An American revert to Islam (we believe everyone is born Muslim thus we refer to people who later in their life become muslim as reverts) perhaps the person who is responsible for my journey of looking into things for myself. I met him in 2010, and there wasn't anything I threw at him that he didn't have an eloquent and convincing answer for. He also served as advisor to President George W. Bush on more than one occasion and was invited to the white house on more than 1 occasion.
He is very frustrated with Terrorism. YouTube Video Placeholder
4. Dr Zakir Nakir - Basic Islamic answers, but he is no way a basic person in any way shape or form. YouTube Video Placeholder
EDIT: Dr Adnan Ibrahim and Dr Zakir Nakir disagree on this matter. (Wishing Christians a Merry Christmas)
Adnan Ibrahim's stance: It is obligatory to wish them Merry Christmas. It doesn't in any way mean you agree that Jesus is the son of God.
Zakir Nakir: Believes the practice perpetuates an idea which Muslims disagree with and is in contradiction to the essence of Islam - That God has no partners, no sons, no brothers, no children, no wives, no equals.
Neat! I'll read up. From what I gathered earlier, it looks like at least part of the drama comes from mis-translations and various interpretations of holy texts for muslims, so at least they're right in line with everyone else that does the same thing for other religions. As to the rest of the thread, holy cow I didn't know I'd unleash such a conversation :)
The IQ section was fun reading. Reminds me of a favorite quote from George Carlin:
Quote: Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
It's interesting to think about where we might be in 50 years. Before the last ~10 years or so, the whole world was still sort of in isolated pockets. Arab Spring and the rest though have really changed a lot of that, and people truly can see the whole world at once for the first time. I doubt I'll be alive to see significant progress with religious strife, but boy it would be neat to.
By Blazed1979 2014-09-26 18:33:35
The Noble Quran(Al-Nahl,16:125)
"Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and fair exhortation, and dispute with them by way of that which is best. Truly your Lord knows best those who stray from His way and He knows best those who are guided."
(Letter from 120 Prominant Muslim Scholars to ISIS)
PAGE 5/23
".......and while Islam spread politically from Central Asia (Khurasan) to North Africa due to Islamic conquests, the majority of the inhabitants of these lands remained Christian for hundreds of years until some of them gradually accepted Islam through gentle invitation, and not through severity and coercion.
Indeed large countries and entire provinces became Muslim without conquest but through invitation (da’wah)
such as: Indonesia; Malaysia; West and East Africa, and others. Hence, severity is neither a measure of piety nor a choice for the spread of Islam"
/T H R E A D
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By Asura.Triffle 2014-09-27 00:32:02
Have you heard the good news about our Time Lord and savior, the Doctor?
By Blazed1979 2014-09-27 07:17:34
OP There is no question that many people have been killed by those who wish to convert others to their religion. It's not just Muslims killing Christians, it has happened for just about every religion out there.
Specifically about islam, though, I'm trying to understand more about what various religious writings have. From what I can find, there are statements from Muhammad that both dictate forced conversion as well as statements that dictate leaving others in peace.
For example, here's a statement that appears to be forcing conversion:
Spoiler Alert! Click to view.
And here's one that says leave people alone:
Spoiler Alert! Click to view.
Are these really just contradictory messages? I know religious questions are effectively impossible to answer, so I'd like to phrase things this way: Are Muhammad's writings 100% for forced conversion, 100% against, or do they give conflicting advice?
ANSWER:
The Noble Quran(Al-Nahl,16:125)
"Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and fair exhortation, and dispute with them by way of that which is best. Truly your Lord knows best those who stray from His way and He knows best those who are guided."
(Letter from 120 Prominant Muslim Scholars to ISIS)
PAGE 5/23
".......and while Islam spread politically from Central Asia (Khurasan) to North Africa due to Islamic conquests, the majority of the inhabitants of these lands remained Christian for hundreds of years until some of them gradually accepted Islam through gentle invitation, and not through severity and coercion.
Indeed large countries and entire provinces became Muslim without conquest but through invitation (da’wah)
such as: Indonesia; Malaysia; West and East Africa, and others. Hence, severity is neither a measure of piety nor a choice for the spread of Islam"
/T H R E A D
By fonewear 2014-09-27 09:52:31
I thought the thread was over by at least the fourth post.
There is no question that many people have been killed by those who wish to convert others to their religion. It's not just Muslims killing Christians, it has happened for just about every religion out there.
Specifically about islam, though, I'm trying to understand more about what various religious writings have. From what I can find, there are statements from Muhammad that both dictate forced conversion as well as statements that dictate leaving others in peace.
For example, here's a statement that appears to be forcing conversion: Quote: Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."
And here's one that says leave people alone: Quote: I shall exempt them from that which may disturb them; of the burdens which are paid by others as an oath of allegiance. They must not give anything of their income but that which pleases them—they must not be offended, or disturbed, or coerced or compelled. Their judges should not be changed or prevented from accomplishing their offices, nor the monks disturbed in exercising their religious order, or the people of seclusion be stopped from dwelling in their cells.
Are these really just contradictory messages? I know religious questions are effectively impossible to answer, so I'd like to phrase things this way: Are Muhammad's writings 100% for forced conversion, 100% against, or do they give conflicting advice?
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