Sigurd's Descendants: The Art Of Dragon Slaying.

I'm not convinced. AM3 is nice, but may not be worthwhile even for a job like DRG. Camlann's Torment is also rather underwhelming at 3k TP unless you're desperately underbuffed. Furthermore, it's arguably the worst REMA polearm or very near it for Camlann's itself (Trishula should have better per-WS damage output, Ryunohige offers AM3 procs on WS, Gungnir's acc is likely relevant if you're not attack capped & the def down is potentially helpful for longer fights, and all three weapons have the edge in WS frequency and/or average TP per WS), and is certainly the worst for every other polearm weaponskill. Gungnir and Trishula open up new skillchain options, while Ryunohige can pump out multisteps very quickly.

I'm struggling to visualize a scenario where Rhongomiant is clearly the best available option, but if you have evidence to the contrary I'd love to see it.

Spreadsheet math mostly. Seems to be diminishing gains on improving WS damage (and ignoring SC damage) vs. doubling white damage in high-buff situations.

Obviously it falls behind in tons of other scenarios and 3k Camlann's always feels like a waste, but that Empyrean buff really makes a big difference. The VIT thing is silly though.

I get Trishula being best (even when not factoring in the darkness skillchain property and fact it doesn't have to activate AM). Is that wrong?

Last I checked Ryu was still top. But I realize there have been advances in Multihit gear the last few updates, so maybe I'm just behind.

Time to decide if it's worth the effort of getting the spreadsheet setup to find out...

I'd love to know this as well. Thinking about makin Ryu but would love to know if I should put my efforts elsewhere

Do you know what TP sets were being used for those numbers?

My process was:
1) Set all equipment to be the same for both sets
2) Make sure the DPS numbers are the same
3) Swap Ryunohige into one set and Trishula into the other
4) Turn off Jumps. While the Jump page is useful for maximizing Jump damage, the Jump's-contribution-to-DPS part is difficult to model and somewhat suspect. I left Wyvern Breaths on.
5) Set the Over-TP rounds to 0. You're on a 2H job with a minimum delay of 98.4 (~1.5 seconds, ~3 packets). I know we all get distracted sometimes, but is a +0.5 average attack rounds really a good way to compensate for that? Is "Distracted Dragoon" really what you're trying to model?
6) Tweak the TP/WS sets until the combined DPS is high as I can get it for each set, which was basically the same TP sets. Turning on Jumps at this point benefits Trishula more than Ryunohige, which brings me back to #4. I'm sure there are more improvements I could make using more Custom valorous pieces (I only customized feet with STP/STR/Acc+Atk), but that's not really the point as you'll see below.
-spoiler-
TP:
RYUNOHIGE AG
Utu Grip
Ginsen
Flamma Zucchetto +1
Anu Torque
Telos Earring
Sherida Earring
Emicho Haubert +1 [A]
Emicho Gauntlets +1 -B-
Rajas Ring
Petrov Ring
Brigantia's Mantle (STR+STP)
Windbuffet Belt +1
Acro Breeches (STP)
Valorous Greaves (Custom 2)

Trish: Bloodrain/Cessance/DA Brig mantle

WS:
RYUNOHIGE AG
Utu Grip
Knobkierrie
Lustratio Cap +1 [D]
Fotia Gorget
Sherida Earring
Moonshade (Acc+TP)
Lustratio Harness +1 [A]
Valorous Mitts (STR+DA)
Shukuyu Ring
Ifrit Ring +1
Brigantia's Mantle (STR+WSD)
Fotia Belt
Sulevia's Cuisses +1
Sulevia's Leggings +1

Trish: STR+DA Brig mantle.
-/spoiler-


I got Trishula at 4180 DPS without Jumps, with Ryunohige at 4146 DPS (Boost-STR, Haste 2, Mad/Mad/Honor March, 90% defense down). That's not really the point, though
* Ryunohige's total cycle delay was 333, or 29.4 Stardivers per Drakesbane to maintain AM3. Assuming Drakesbane does the same damage as Stardiver, which we all know it doesn't, you can call it 30.4 Stardivers. Trishula does 31.7 Stardivers in the same time. Looks like DRG has hit the point where AM3 is negating itself. Notably, killing the wyvern off changes this.
* If you're going to try and model wyverns and jumps, why not try and dream up a double darkness every other WS both opened and closed using your best WS?
* SAM's roll is the best COR roll to use for both polearms (at >40 potency) and benefits Trishula more than Ryunohige. After that, Fighter's Roll is the best COR roll to use for both polearms, and benefits Trishula a lot more. With SAM/Fighter's 11s, you're looking at 5557 DPS for Trish and 5048 DPS for Ryunohige. Even if we kill their wyverns at this point, Trishula stays ahead even ignoring its above benefits.


Trishula looks like a superior polearm and it doesn't look close. It wins on paper, as far as I can see, and has every difficult-to-model advantage.

Edit: I gave up on the spoiler.
Here is the sheet with the changes made: https://www.dropbox.com/s/4oqe10rpipw1srx/DPS%20Calculator%20-%20DRG.xlsx?dl=0

I've long since stopped trusting dps spreadsheets for absolute "best of bestest best". As Byrth demonstrated there are far too many variables and situations in the game and it's super easy to make one weapon seem better then it is.

Trish raises SD damage by ~30% while adding 10 store TP. WS/melee split is now obscenely at 80/20 on many 2H jobs. Raising the 80 has a larger effect then raising the 20.

So what you're saying is... I should just sell all of my Alexandrite and get Trish instead? :(

Edit: Reply FASTER BYRTH! Lakshmi.Himself :)

More or less. I certainly wouldn't invest ~220mil and all the other Mythic crap in Ryunohige at the moment.

Mythics are still soloable, though, while Aeonics require a high performance party. It is likely easier to farm 220mil than get a group together that can farm a Trishula.

Braden,

The current version of the spreadsheet has an issue with Utu grip.

The second WS set under the WS tab has the following in cell L535.

=IF(Gear!$X3="Utu Grip","Dex","N/A")

Gear!$X3 is the weapon slot for set 2. needs to be Gear!$X4

Same for the cell two to the right L537

This is why Byrth is getting Bloodrain as better DPS than Utu for Trishula. That being said, the DPS gain for Trish was less than I expected once this was repaired. Still, I'm not helping Ryu's case any here. <,<;

Still messing with things, but I wanted to get that spreadsheet error reported.

Those screenshots are eyecancer.

But the really surprising thing I'm getting from this, is that Drakes is beating Stardiver For Ryu. Which is something that hasn't happened since stardiver got buffed(abbysea aside.) Further, Drakes is winning in a set spec'd for Stardiver, with no consideration given to Drakes crit property.

The cause of this appears to be Utu Grip. Seems like the additional WSC is a really big deal when applied to a WS with a low base WSC.

I'm still tweaking things, but... Drakesbane returns!?

That said, As of right now, I still have Ryu behind Trishula. But this is very interesting... Assuming it's not just the result of a spreadsheet error or something.

Well Ryu is Drakes +30% while Trish raises SD by about 30%. With WS being so dominant in 2H damage it shouldn't be too surprising for those results. I like how things are becoming more and more imperfectly balanced.

So...this is interesting. I am a Gungnir user. In my mind, I payed 50% of the cost and spent considerably less time to make it, and got 90% of the performance compared to a Ryu. That was my mindset for doing it. But swapping Gungnir in for Trish in his example, and making a few minor teaks for some things I actually use (red curry, nep grip+1) and Ryu only leads by 7%. Given the spreadsheet does not account for the attack down (although I guess in this example its already capped pdif so wouldn't matter) and someone correct me if I am wrong, but it also does not include Gungnir's 16% 2.5 damage attacks (looking through the gear list page I do not see a column that would correlate but could be missing it). Lastly this is just swapping it in for Trish and using the Stardiver spam (I do not know how to use the spreadhseet well enough to change this), not taking advantage of any AM. The one nice thing about Gungnir is that the AM level only effects duration, not potency of the buff which is fixed, so you can either choose your TP to set it based on fight duration, or simply swap a Geirskogul in. And no jumps accounted for which would favor the Gungnir more as well.

All told it really seems like the gap has been minimized or eliminated so much, even non Trish users may want to turn away from the Ryu...

Also, I am torn. I am nearing 50k beads and about to start an Aeonic in a group that can complete 85% of it, and is getting better by the week. I cannot decide if I wanna Trish for my DRG or give it to another job that doesn't already have any REM.

Edit: Putting in relic Aftermath and including jumps brings Ryu's lead to 3%. For shits and giggles changed SJ to WAR and it actually brought Gungnir ahead by 1%.

So Gungnir is a really solid alternative? Until Trish?

Relic 2H weapons are all about that massive accuracy. In higher end fights accuracy actually matters and needs to be taken into account. Gungnir in base accuracy vs Trish in mid accuracy.

The thing about these spreadsheets is that people are always buffed to max - which is fine because you wanna compare max capabilities. But in game, it's pretty uncommon for me to have more than capped haste from a GEO with Fury and Frailty. And with /SAM on a lot of content that's not attack capped. And what happens is I am eating Curry when everyone around me eats sushi. That attack matters. My LS is actually fighting Kirin tonight for the first time, but I haven't really gotten to the point of fighting things yet where I am not acc capped like this - and if I am not, that would mean that ACC is even better. I am not saying Gungnir is the best weapon - but I have felt there are a number of small things that all it up to it being a bit underrated.

You could always turn those buffs off and have a look for yourself.

Gungnir's relic damage procs should be accounted for, not everything is on the gear page.

This^. As Saevel stated previously, it seems like they're all fairly equal as long as you gear appropriately for the weapon that you choose to obtain.

Using all the same Buffs that Byrth had set earlier, (Basically everything maxed in a perfect situation) I have Drakesbane at 5955 DPS and Trish at 5900. Still tweaking. That's not even enough damage difference to really say one is better than the other.

Obivously with everything else in FF. It is going to be situational and having more options to fill those situations, is better. :)

Now for me, just need to finish collecting alexandrite... /sigh

I actually fixed the Utu Grip thing and another unrelated breath override thing last night, totally forgot to mention that. As far as I can tell, everything should be identical for both settings aside from some of those Setup categories that affect both sets.

Very cool! Kind of a cliche question, but with Gugnir are you a competitive DD with other jobs? I know it's a terrible question to ask in a place where we are here to discuss how to best play DRG. But there is an opportunity cost that goes a long with making an ultimate weapon, and I want to make sure I am choosing the right one to play DD roles.

I absolutely love DRG but DRK is also very fun, and so is Nin, etc, etc. And since I don't have the resources to make weapons for all of them(it's a dream of mine lol). I'd love to know how it stands up to other ultimate weapons to make sure that I always bring the best to the group that I am working with per the situation... If that makes any sense lol...

Yes, I am competitive with everyone in pretty much all content I do. We have a master Vajra THF and a Master mythic/empy BLU who generally beat me in things, but not by much - and considering things you read online you'd think it would be a landslide. It's close enough that while they generally do more, there are times rng works in my favor and I do more than they do. And I do more damage then nearly everyone else I party with including some very nicely equipped WAR and SAM. And unless whatever random BLU I party with is in tip top shape, I beat them as well and usually by a wide margin. There has not been any content I've done yet that people use mele strats on that I show up and perform poorly on. Master DRG with good other gear, albeit far from perfect. Still have more run room with better Valorous Augments, some Omen gear, and Valorous Body (still TP in Despair Mail).

It's a good weapon, and compared to the cost and time investment of the other 2 I think very well worth it. Whatever you are using already - you will notice an immediate large impact in performance. I suggest enough Store TP for a 5hit, then going all in on extra attacks. With /SAM sub my TP build is 68% DA and 4% TA.

I am not saying that I wouldn't be a better version of me than if I had a Ryu or Rhon (I ama bigger fan of Rhon). But I have been playing a little over 4 months. I have not even run a single Assault. The heaven that was Ambuscade a few months back funded all of the Dyna currency and about 20% of the AG currency. And the following months event Tenzen spam funded the rest of the AG. I'd probably still be working on the weapon if I did one of the others. Looking back now, I am still really happy with my decision.

Trish is more like a 23% increase.

Define competitive?

Right now for pure group DPS there are two DD's at the top depending on their situation and that's WAR and BLU. Now before the fire and pitchforks come out the reason I say WAR is because Warcry and Blood Rage are extremely broken party wide buffs. WC gives +700 TP Bonus and +12% attack to all the other DD's, Blood Rage gives +40% Critical Hit Rate to all those DD's, they overwrite each other and are 60s duration. It's like turning everyone's weapon into an Aeonic +2. BLU has Mighty Guard which is +15% Magic Haste +25% Defense +15 Magic Defense and +30HP/tick to everyone in the party.

Both of those jobs can do high damage WS's while simultaneously raising the damage of the other DD nearby. DRG has Angon which is extremely powerful -25% defense for 90s, not quite as powerful as the above two but pretty close.

Now if we take those special cheese abilities out of the equation then DRG is extremely competitive with all the bonus's it gets from it's Wyvern and exploiting it's weapon skill of choice. Your best bet is to get paired with a WAR and revel in the ridiculous damage boost WC/BR gives you.

On top of that, DRG skill chains with other jobs like a champ.

Someone asked me this in PMs the other day, here was my response:

It's very well-rounded. Keep in mind it's the highest attack+accuracy weapon DRG gets by a good margin, has a great added effect, good and simple Aftermath, and Geirskogul is the only Distortion WS we get. And you might be down with lockstyling it too, maybe not, I dunno. Maybe some sort of rugged Poseidon look. Anyway it's ahead of every non-RMEA by a pretty big margin so it'd be a pretty big damage boost over what you're using right now.

However most of the time, yes, Gungnir does worse than the other RMEA polearms when you're able to actually utilize those weapons (so AM3 on Ryu/Rhongo and Stardiver or Umbra spam on Trish). You basically have to be in a situation where Gungnir's accuracy makes a significant difference in your hit rate for it to win, and that's kinda like making the most of a bad situation where one weapon probably isn't gonna fix everything anyway.

Now if you don't have the patience for Ryu/Rhongo or the crew for Trishula, Gungnir is your best bet. It IS competitive, and there'll be times when it would've been your best option anyway. But you might get that itch for something with more oomph and 150mil might be a lot of money for what may be a stepping stone.

Oh but the Poseidon look is no joke.

Very interesting and thank you for the responses. To your point about situations where Gungnirs acc bonus will make it come ahead; isn't that most cases? I guess for situations where you have enough buffs or it's lower level content, that much acc wouldn't be needed, but for relevant battles isn't it always needed?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we draw a parrallel to Rag DRK, isn't acc the same reason why everyone goes for Rag? Calad would beat Rag but the acc is too good to give up, especially when used on WAR and it's even requested sometimes via PUG... (I didn't do the math but others in the DRK forums did... I think).

Sorry if anything has typos or weird wording. I'm on mobile and the sites not really mobile responsive

Gungir base TP set vs Trish/Ryuo Mid Acc set. How much extra Store TP / Multi-Attack does one need to sacrifice to get another ~60 accuracy. That is the question that needs answering to determine the actual difference between them. SS are great for figuring out which gear does what, but ticking all the box's and maximizing every buff against a lower level target with infinite HP that doesn't swing back isn't very realistic. There are several trade off us WAR's do to make sure that Resolution / Upheaval has the same Accuracy as our TP sets. DRG would have to do the exact same for it's own SD / DB set and if anyone tells you "don't worry about it" then you need to immediately stop listening to them for any and all advice. Accuracy means something and while I'm not recommending using the Relic Polearm (WAY to many situational checks for that), I am saying you need to be cognizant of your groups accuracy level. Gimping the group to help the weakest DD isn't a very good strategy.

Depends on your setup. Some people are able to get away with as little as around 1150 accuracy before buffs because they've got a million coming from rolls, bubbles, songs, etc. I usually just have food and a BRD for accuracy, but I'm still able to cap hitrate on Reisenjima T4s using a high accuracy set from HQ abjuration gear and whatnot despite using Ryunohige. 60 Acc is a lot though, so it does open some things up for you in terms of flexibility.

As for Ragnarok, part of that is because A) it's the only RMEA Resolution-thing WAR can use, B) DRK has like 83 less accuracy on GS compared to DRG in terms of skill/traits/gifts, and C) people are still sleeping on two-handed Empyreans for whatever reason, even if two of them come with 50 VIT and two more are stuck with unremarkable WS options.