I've always had really good results in optimal conditions with Ryu. Curious what your results say for it. If you can, can you also provide the inputs you're using?
I haven't been able to manually update my copy of the simulation to include ODD/ODT for Primes. I'm using Apex Bat as the target, along with Dia III / Haste II / SV +9 Songs (HM, Minuet x3, Aria) / +8 Chaos & SAM with 7 for rolls, Crooked on Chaos, and Bolstered GEO +10 with Indi Fury & GEO Frailty, with 25% potency. Didn't use Entrusts.
AM3 active
Angon & Hasso (/SAM)
Master level 50
WSing at 1k (holding TP seems to be DPS loss according to simulation)
I'm also using Ephramad's and R25 as my Ody rank.
No DT requirements.
I get Ryu just shy of 9% ahead of Gae Buide IV (again, no ODD/ODT taken into consideration)
All that being said. I know that's not always going to be a realistic scenario. I've always thought Ryu would be a beast when you can overcome the attack penalty. The TP gain with AM3 up, as well as jumps, is insane. Though I feel that also benefits Prime more in practice, as you can weave Jumps in. Prime WS benefits greatly from this due to TP scaling on Diarmuid, while Drakesbane only gains increase crit chance.
Sigurd's Descendants: The Art Of Dragon Slaying.
Sigurd's Descendants: The Art of Dragon Slaying.
Ryu is my absolute favorite weapon in the game but I am having a hard time seeing how it is ahead of Gae Buide in almost any scenario.
I’ll let the mathers math.
I’ll let the mathers math.
I need to stress that in practice, I do not see this ever being a likely scenario. I have Apex Bat chosen as the target in this instance. It has a listed Defense of 1338 and 289 VIT. I am completely aware of Drakesbane's shortcomings due to not scaling with TP and the unfortunate attack penalty.
Most targets that are worth mentioning are going to have significantly higher Defense, which is going to absolutely change results. This is moreso an exercise for curiosities sake :)
Edit - I actually played with the numbers a little and increased Defense to 5000 and adjusted buffs to be non-2hr (marcato instead of SV, BoG instead of Bolster), and still got similar results. Ryu edging out by a few % which I would anticipate being made up for if ODD/ODT were taken into consideration for Prime. But I think more importantly, Jumps heavily favor Prime due to TP scaling WS.
Curious what you guys think / see in practice.
Most targets that are worth mentioning are going to have significantly higher Defense, which is going to absolutely change results. This is moreso an exercise for curiosities sake :)
Edit - I actually played with the numbers a little and increased Defense to 5000 and adjusted buffs to be non-2hr (marcato instead of SV, BoG instead of Bolster), and still got similar results. Ryu edging out by a few % which I would anticipate being made up for if ODD/ODT were taken into consideration for Prime. But I think more importantly, Jumps heavily favor Prime due to TP scaling WS.
Curious what you guys think / see in practice.
Random DRG thought: you should gain your wyvern's wings as a visual effect on your back when you use Spirit Surge, similar to August's wings mode, or Tartarus Plaitmail wings, since you're merging with your pet for the duration.
No idea why that just came to my mind.
No idea why that just came to my mind.
[+]
Veydal1 said: »
I need to stress that in practice, I do not see this ever being a likely scenario. I have Apex Bat chosen as the target in this instance. It has a listed Defense of 1338 and 289 VIT. I am completely aware of Drakesbane's shortcomings due to not scaling with TP and the unfortunate attack penalty.
Most targets that are worth mentioning are going to have significantly higher Defense, which is going to absolutely change results. This is moreso an exercise for curiosities sake :)
Edit - I actually played with the numbers a little and increased Defense to 5000 and adjusted buffs to be non-2hr (marcato instead of SV, BoG instead of Bolster), and still got similar results. Ryu edging out by a few % which I would anticipate being made up for if ODD/ODT were taken into consideration for Prime. But I think more importantly, Jumps heavily favor Prime due to TP scaling WS.
Curious what you guys think / see in practice.
Most targets that are worth mentioning are going to have significantly higher Defense, which is going to absolutely change results. This is moreso an exercise for curiosities sake :)
Edit - I actually played with the numbers a little and increased Defense to 5000 and adjusted buffs to be non-2hr (marcato instead of SV, BoG instead of Bolster), and still got similar results. Ryu edging out by a few % which I would anticipate being made up for if ODD/ODT were taken into consideration for Prime. But I think more importantly, Jumps heavily favor Prime due to TP scaling WS.
Curious what you guys think / see in practice.
If you increased def to 5000 you pushed it to different extremum, where crit hits add massive damage over non crit hits, since crit hits are static +1 pDIF, it's extremely potent when you have for example 1.0 cRatio.
I was using Apex Toad as target for high buff, II Samurai Roll, CC IV Chaos Roll, Light shot, Job Bonus, Angon, Hasso, Haste II, Dia III, Boost-STR, Song+7 Honor, Minuet V and IV, Aria, Marcato,
None of GEO buffs/debuffs.
[+]
Yeah it would be weird if they pushed us back to abyssea era where crit WSs were massively ahead of almost everything else outside of brewing. Not the same math, but similar results.
That's a fair point regarding crits being favored in that scenario.
Thanks for clarifying what buffs you used, I think '2hr zerg' scenario when I see 'high buffs.'
Using those same buffs (with the exception of +9 on songs instead of +7, because what BRD is going to have +7 songs when they have Aeonic and Prime...) I get Gae Buide edging out Ryu by just shy of 5%. This assumes AM3 as well.
Other scenarios (in addition to using same buffs as above) -
BRD + COR + Idris Indi Fury (no 2hr) -
Gae Buide by 1%
BRD + COR + Idris Indi Fury (2hrs used) -
Gae Buide by 1%
I will say to please take this with a grain of salt. I've said it a few times, but it's worth repeating that in practice, Gae Buide should do even better with Jumps taken into consideration and naturally overflowing TP if you're not hitting that WS macro perfectly every time.
Additionally, from my understanding the simulation does not account for TP return from WS when calculating average TP when WSing. For example, the average WS return for Daimuid is 291 with a vanilla WS set (nothing special with STP). And average TP per attack round returns 624 TP. Meaning the average TP for WS should be ~1539 (291 + 624 + 624). However, instead the simulation shows average TP for WS as 1248 (624 + 624, no initial TP return from WS). This should favor Gae Buide even further.
Thanks for clarifying what buffs you used, I think '2hr zerg' scenario when I see 'high buffs.'
Using those same buffs (with the exception of +9 on songs instead of +7, because what BRD is going to have +7 songs when they have Aeonic and Prime...) I get Gae Buide edging out Ryu by just shy of 5%. This assumes AM3 as well.
Other scenarios (in addition to using same buffs as above) -
BRD + COR + Idris Indi Fury (no 2hr) -
Gae Buide by 1%
BRD + COR + Idris Indi Fury (2hrs used) -
Gae Buide by 1%
I will say to please take this with a grain of salt. I've said it a few times, but it's worth repeating that in practice, Gae Buide should do even better with Jumps taken into consideration and naturally overflowing TP if you're not hitting that WS macro perfectly every time.
Additionally, from my understanding the simulation does not account for TP return from WS when calculating average TP when WSing. For example, the average WS return for Daimuid is 291 with a vanilla WS set (nothing special with STP). And average TP per attack round returns 624 TP. Meaning the average TP for WS should be ~1539 (291 + 624 + 624). However, instead the simulation shows average TP for WS as 1248 (624 + 624, no initial TP return from WS). This should favor Gae Buide even further.
Veydal1 said: »
Using those same buffs (with the exception of +9 on songs instead of +7, because what BRD is going to have +7 songs when they have Aeonic and Prime...)
I use +7 because Aria isn't coded to stop at +7 and still adds more PDL at +8 and +9. I need to stop being lazy and fix it I guess.
[+]
Veydal1 said: »
Additionally, from my understanding the simulation does not account for TP return from WS when calculating average TP when WSing. For example, the average WS return for Daimuid is 291 with a vanilla WS set (nothing special with STP). And average TP per attack round returns 624 TP. Meaning the average TP for WS should be ~1539 (291 + 624 + 624). However, instead the simulation shows average TP for WS as 1248 (624 + 624, no initial TP return from WS). This should favor Gae Buide even further.
I dont think that's the case, at least not for simulation.
Simulation calculates TP return on each simulated WS and it's the starting point for next round.
Here the code returns TP returned from a WS
Code
if simulation:
# Cap damage at 99999 for simulations if enabled
if player.abilities.get("99999", False):
total_damage = 99999 if total_damage > 99999 else total_damage
return(total_damage, tp_return)Here it adds a TP threshold, at which you have made WS, to the list.
Code
avg_ws_tp.append(tp)
Here it resets TP after WS to TP returned from a WS and then it is used at the beginning of a new round.
Code
tp = ws_sim[1]
Here it writes down what you see as avg TP/WS, which is just an avg from the list of all TP thresholds you were WSing at.
Code
Average TP/WS: {np.average(avg_ws_tp):4.0f}Sim is set to simulate 24h of fighting I think, that's why your avg will very rarely be different, but you can see few TP difference between avg TP/WS. If you change the code to run the simulation for 1minute of fighting, you will get very different result for that Average TP/WS on each different simulation.
Wouldn't the average TP/WS be above what's being reported due to the TP return from WS? Just doesn't seem to add up to me. A 624 average TP return from an attack round = 2 attack rounds to WS with 1k minimal threshold. If TP from WS was taken into consideration, the average would be higher than what is being reported. The fact that it runs for 24 hours only makes me even more skeptical that it's being taken into consideration properly due to the large sample size.
For DRG you also have to consider Conserve TP which will proc randomly.
I think a lot is being missed in the averages here...
If your average TP per round is 624 then many rounds will be 375, some will be 750, some will be 1000+. You will not always WS at the same TP, sometimes you will proc a QA and end up at 1800 TP. Sometimes you can proc CTP and a TA on your WS and start at a higher TP after WS.
When the sim says your average TP/WS, it's not saying you ALWAYS WS at 1248, it's saying that of the 100,000 WS it did, the AVERAGE TP while WSing was 1248. Sometimes it was 1050, sometimes it was 1470, sometimes it was 2057. On average, it was 1248.
I think a lot is being missed in the averages here...
If your average TP per round is 624 then many rounds will be 375, some will be 750, some will be 1000+. You will not always WS at the same TP, sometimes you will proc a QA and end up at 1800 TP. Sometimes you can proc CTP and a TA on your WS and start at a higher TP after WS.
When the sim says your average TP/WS, it's not saying you ALWAYS WS at 1248, it's saying that of the 100,000 WS it did, the AVERAGE TP while WSing was 1248. Sometimes it was 1050, sometimes it was 1470, sometimes it was 2057. On average, it was 1248.
[+]
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
If your average TP per round is 624 then many rounds will be 375, some will be 750, some will be 1000+. You will not always WS at the same TP, sometimes you will proc a QA and end up at 1800 TP. Sometimes you can proc CTP and a TA on your WS and start at a higher TP after WS.
When the sim says your average TP/WS, it's not saying you ALWAYS WS at 1248, it's saying that of the 100,000 WS it did, the AVERAGE TP while WSing was 1248. Sometimes it was 1050, sometimes it was 1470, sometimes it was 2057. On average, it was 1248.
When the sim says your average TP/WS, it's not saying you ALWAYS WS at 1248, it's saying that of the 100,000 WS it did, the AVERAGE TP while WSing was 1248. Sometimes it was 1050, sometimes it was 1470, sometimes it was 2057. On average, it was 1248.
Exactly and if for example (simple numbers just to show it better) You have 300TP per hit and you have 50% DA and avg tp round is 450TP, you will NEVER get that 450TP, you will either get 300 or 600. So saying your actual WS TP threshold is for example 3x450 is impossible, because you will never get 1350TP, you will get 300 600 900 1200 1500.
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