SE's Response To DRG's Future As A DD

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2010-09-08
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SE's response to DRG's future as a DD
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By Anjou 2014-07-15 21:09:32
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"Hello wyrm slayers,

I checked it with the development team to get some info about what’s on the radar for future dragoon adjustments.

Primarily the team would like to bring out the true value of dragoon as a damage dealing job that fights alongside a wyvern. As such, in the August version update we’ll be boosting the defense and magic defense of wyverns making them stronger against enemy AoE attacks, and we’ll also be decreasing the TP given to enemies by wyvern attacks by enhancing their subtle blow characteristics.

Additionally, we’ll be making modifications so that red lines do not emanate from wyverns when they use breath attacks so you’ll be able to clearly understand that they’re coming from an enemy.

For a version update to take place sometime after September, the team is also looking into increasing the magic accuracy of breath attacks and increasing the frequency in which they can be used, as well as a system that will increase battle capabilities when a wyvern levels up."

link:http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/42965-Dragoon-s-Future-as-DD?p=516376#post516376

this breaks my heart. come on SE
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 Shiva.Jirachi
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By Shiva.Jirachi 2014-07-15 21:28:00
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As sad as it is the player themselves wont get any adjustments, the wyvern needed some adjustments pretty badly. So I am fairly happy that they (hopefully) are becoming more useful for more than just curing us and our trust NPCs.
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2014-07-15 21:34:31
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I'm still waiting on the JA that allows us to turn off the wyvern's ability to use offensive breaths and act as a Spirit Link TP battery as well as letting the wyvern actually utilize their tp time to hit the mob rather than being consistently locked up in breath charging animations. Hell, even just removing breaths entirely would be a DPS increase... It's a bit sad when you think about it.
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2014-07-15 21:57:15
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Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »
I'm still waiting on the JA that allows us to turn off the wyvern's ability to use offensive breaths and act as a Spirit Link TP battery as well as letting the wyvern actually utilize their tp time to hit the mob rather than being consistently locked up in breath charging animations. Hell, even just removing breaths entirely would be a DPS increase... It's a bit sad when you think about it.

Honestly I don't like DRG but the fact that Angon is so useful its sad the job is a tad lack luster in the majority of content, and no the pet is not the main focus. The pets a Sidekick who SHOULD become stupidly supersized for an epic WS that deals Stupid Damage (so loosing your pet would be more detrimental) without giving it tonnes of defence.

Would make the job more fun and involved.

Maybe add a WS Dmg Bonus +40% if pet is alive so you get a sizeable bonus from actually being a Wyrm Tamer and being a good master!
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2014-07-15 22:52:30
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Wyvern's being dead does have a fairly noticable negative impact.

BGWiki said:
Spirit Jump receives three bonuses when the user's Wyvern pet is present:
Doubled TP return
Forced Critical Hit
25% Attack bonus

BGWiki said:
Soul Jump receives three bonuses when the user's Wyvern pet is present:
Triple TP return
Forced Critical Hit
50% attack bonus

Those make a pretty huge difference for drg's tp and ws rate as well as add a decent bonus to the damage of the jumps.

But, I would never dream of arguing against a 40% ws damage bonus if the wyvern is alive. That'd be absolutely amazing. A decent attack boost while the wyvern is alive would also suite to strengthen one of drg's weak points.

Probably a more reasonable fix would be to fix drakesbane. An attack penalty on a att starved job is just rude. They could also add another large mod on it like making it 50% Dex as well as the original 50% Str.
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By Ophannus 2014-07-15 23:23:16
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They need to make fly bigh give the tp and crit bonuses to spirit/soul jump so DRG has at least one ungimped SP2 when wyvern dead.
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By Odin.Shaggnix 2014-07-16 08:52:03
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SEs ability to ignore the elephant in the room never fails to amaze.

"We're making wyverns more durable and the animations less confusing...... but we're just going to gloss over the fact that you're generally so attack starved that you can't compete without a mythic. Good day, and enjoy soloing old content."

I exaggerate only slightly, Angon has its place in endgame to a degree I guess. If they added an attack boost while your wyvern is alive (or an ability that triggers such) I'd be a little more excited.
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 Asura.Reichleiu
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By Asura.Reichleiu 2014-07-16 09:18:12
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Odin.Shaggnix said: »
SEs ability to ignore the elephant in the room never fails to amaze.

"We're making wyverns more durable and the animations less confusing...... but we're just going to gloss over the fact that you're generally so attack starved that you can't compete even with a mythic because your Weapon Skills are awful. Good day, and enjoy soloing old content."

I exaggerate only slightly, Angon has its place in endgame to a degree I guess. If they added an attack boost while your wyvern is alive (or an ability that triggers such) I'd be a little more excited.

Fixed. After the last WS update, I don't even bother bringing my Ryu DRG anywhere. Why? Because we have SAMs that can deal more damage unless the monster is weak to piercing. When a SAM is using a WS about as much as a mythic DRG and their skill does 1.5 to 2x the damage.. whats the point of bringing a shiny DRG?

Its crazy how things can change in a month.

To be fair though, most non-SAM DDs are in a similar situation, DRG just seems to have been hit the hardest.

We will never be comparable DDs unless we get an attack boosting ability and better Weapon Skills at this point, regardless of making a mythic.
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2014-07-16 09:20:29
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lol drg
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 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-07-16 09:29:47
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Asura.Reichleiu said: »
we have SAMs that can deal more damage unless the monster is weak to piercing
Namas!
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By Odin.Skeero 2014-07-16 09:30:50
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*** *** *** *** *** you se. I got half chub when i read the title, and now im inverted. ***
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 Asura.Reichleiu
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By Asura.Reichleiu 2014-07-16 09:44:39
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Asura.Reichleiu said: »
we have SAMs that can deal more damage unless the monster is weak to piercing
Namas!

In my experience, Namas won't keep up with a mythic... unless its a mythic SAM spamming Namas.

Even then, with Fudo's doing such silly numbers I don't know why any SAM would touch a bow ever again unless the monster that was weak to piercing was resistant to slashing.


But back on topic.. Making Wyvern stronger, or adding food that affects it, or adding more accuracy to breaths... thats not going to fix our problem. We are an offensive job with no offensive JAs other than jumps which don't compare to Hasso/Berserk/Soul Eater/Formless Strikes/and just about every other JA those 4 jobs have.

not to mention most monsters have some native level of piercing resistance..
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2014-07-16 10:16:11
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Asura.Reichleiu said: »
But back on topic.. Making Wyvern stronger, or adding food that affects it, or adding more accuracy to breaths... thats not going to fix our problem.

It certainly isn't the best way to fix anything. Granted, if they were to make a large enough adjustment, it's possible it could fix things... If they made my wyvern's attacks in to a kraken wyvern, gave it an ochain on one claw and an aegis on the other and give it 500 attack boost and 500 str and gave it an AOE ultima breath and my wyvern could solo VD Kam'lanaut... then yeah.

But that will never happen and SE is blind to the problems with wyverns. Buffing them doesn't help much because they are so worthless in high buff situations due to drg's ws rate and the lock up of breaths. So even when you give them all those buffs they don't make very effective use of them.
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By Asura.Reichleiu 2014-07-16 10:46:03
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Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »
Asura.Reichleiu said: »
But back on topic.. Making Wyvern stronger, or adding food that affects it, or adding more accuracy to breaths... thats not going to fix our problem.

It certainly isn't the best way to fix anything. Granted, if they were to make a large enough adjustment, it's possible it could fix things... If they made my wyvern's attacks in to a kraken wyvern, gave it an ochain on one claw and an aegis on the other and give it 500 attack boost and 500 str and gave it an AOE ultima breath and my wyvern could solo VD Kam'lanaut... then yeah.

But that will never happen and SE is blind to the problems with wyverns. Buffing them doesn't help much because they are so worthless in high buff situations due to drg's ws rate and the lock up of breaths. So even when you give them all those buffs they don't make very effective use of them.

Exactly, the minor increases to our wyverns will not be enough. I can say that with a fair amount of confidence considering what they have done lately. I don't see these enhancements being large ones.

They have already buffed Wyverns since the release of item level equipment. They made it so our Main Weapon item level changes the level of our wyvern. When we all heard that we were super excited, yet it really accomplished nothing.

The main issue seems to be that SE has a vision of how DRG is/ should be played and that vision is polar opposite of how their player-base actually uses the job. Once again, this is not a problem exclusive to DRG.

I'm all for pet buffs as I am one of the first people that will tell you we need it. My wyvern used to do 10-15% of the damage I did pre-adoulin, now its less than 2%. That being said, I just don't see this making a difference.

I hope i'm wrong.
 Asura.Loire
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By Asura.Loire 2014-07-16 10:54:22
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Asura.Reichleiu said: »
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Asura.Reichleiu said: »
we have SAMs that can deal more damage unless the monster is weak to piercing
Namas!

In my experience, Namas won't keep up with a mythic... unless its a mythic SAM spamming Namas.
Just to clarify, mythic sam would never use namas even in piercing weak situations. Namas aftermath overwrites koga's. Only apex would get used on two gimic mobs in delve, ceizak boss (maybe) and straight fudo for the rest.
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2014-07-16 10:58:54
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Asura.Reichleiu said: »
I'm all for pet buffs as I am one of the first people that will tell you we need it. My wyvern used to do 10-15% of the damage I did pre-adoulin, now its less than 2%. That being said, I just don't see this making a difference.

I hope i'm wrong.

A 1-2% dps on wyverns is not going to put a dent in the gap between sam and drg. Even angon can't save us there.
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By Asura.Reichleiu 2014-07-16 11:10:42
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Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »
Asura.Reichleiu said: »
I'm all for pet buffs as I am one of the first people that will tell you we need it. My wyvern used to do 10-15% of the damage I did pre-adoulin, now its less than 2%. That being said, I just don't see this making a difference.

I hope i'm wrong.

A 1-2% dps on wyverns is not going to put a dent in the gap between sam and drg. Even angon can't save us there.

That was my point.. We all got stronger and wyvern didn't improve enough. I was mentioning that my pet used to do more damage comparatively to myself. Now the gap is significantly larger and they were already weak before.


@Loire

That's pretty much what I said on the next line. That SAM really shouldn't even be touching a bow anymore with Fudo being as silly as it is.
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By Odin.Shaggnix 2014-07-16 11:55:54
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I think part of the problem is that SE considers drg a pet job, and thus can fix it by adjusting the pet. Smn has endless pets limited only by mp and 0 melee potential; bst has pets that are far more durable, easier to heal, on a shorter timer, and have way more hp, and still ruinator scales up better with buffs than polearm weaponskills in general.

In contrast, drg is a melee job more than a pet job. Most of the benefit to having a wyvern is in how it affects the drgs abilities (soul/spirit jump, spirit surge, spirit link tp, etc). You'd never expect a drg to send his/her wyvern in to fight while the player sits back and gives commands. Making it so wyverns can stay alive longer does help, but that wasn't the problem. The problem is that even with the wyvern alive we have nothing to boost our naturally low attack.

I would give up healing breaths completely if it meant something to help us compete on higher end content. I think the devs feel that gimp dmg balances the 1k+ hateless/no mp cost/once a minute heals, but all you end up with is a job that can't function competitively on anything remotely difficult.

tl;dr
stop boosting our wyverns and start boosting the player, drg isn't really a pet job
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By Sieha1 2014-07-16 12:12:16
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Odin.Skeero said: »
*** *** *** *** *** you se. I got half chub when i read the title, and now im inverted. ***

probably a good thing so you dont get the idea to reproduce.

anyways in the end asking drg to be equal with sam would require removing the wyvern and removing any other utility abilities. Most people look at ws damage and miss out on the rest of the picture.

I understand that alot of people enjoy drg (why who knows but whatever) but it wont be a dd master like sam or even to a lesser extent mnk. It can be good but wont be equal with sam. I think they are trying to bridge the gap in the correct way to maintain balance by bringing up the pet's ability.

any pet job should have some kind of balance where if you add the pet with the master it gets close to a lower dd like war and if the pet job is really well geared it can get closer to mnk and sam. However thinking that drg itself will get to be as strong as sam without adding the wyvern is just kind of silly.
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By Asura.Reichleiu 2014-07-16 12:40:16
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Odin.Shaggnix said: »
I think part of the problem is that SE considers drg a pet job, and thus can fix it by adjusting the pet. Smn has endless pets limited only by mp and 0 melee potential; bst has pets that are far more durable, easier to heal, on a shorter timer, and have way more hp, and still ruinator scales up better with buffs than polearm weaponskills in general.

In contrast, drg is a melee job more than a pet job. Most of the benefit to having a wyvern is in how it affects the drgs abilities (soul/spirit jump, spirit surge, spirit link tp, etc). You'd never expect a drg to send his/her wyvern in to fight while the player sits back and gives commands. Making it so wyverns can stay alive longer does help, but that wasn't the problem. The problem is that even with the wyvern alive we have nothing to boost our naturally low attack.

I would give up healing breaths completely if it meant something to help us compete on higher end content. I think the devs feel that gimp dmg balances the 1k+ hateless/no mp cost/once a minute heals, but all you end up with is a job that can't function competitively on anything remotely difficult.

tl;dr
stop boosting our wyverns and start boosting the player, drg isn't really a pet job

This so much. I've never considered myself a "Pet Job" because my pet is way too gimp. The fact that SE has not buffed us is, more or less, due to that fact that they think we are a pet job. (Again, they are out of touch with how people actually play DRG). Healing Breath is great and all, but now with trusts I rarely use it and would gladly give it up in a heartbeat for more attack.


@Sieha1

No one is saying the DRG should be as strong as a SAM without a wyvern. I even mention above that long ago my pet would do 10-15% of my total damage. This is actually a significant number. Now my wyvern is around 2% of my total damage. Even if they buff wyverns the way they are discussing, it won't change enough to make the combination comparable to other DDs. DRG is a poorly designed job and always has been.

The only way to narrow the gap and balance the jobs is to A. buff DRG a little and buff the wyvern a little. or B. Buff the wyvern to the point where they do 1/4th-1/3rd the damage a DRG does. So if I did 100k damage, the pet should do 25-33k. Either one of these solutions would balance the job out.

However..

They will not do B, it will be small buffs that are barely noticed. (healing breath being one of the reasons they won't do much)

Unfortunately.. I don't ever see them doing A either.
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By Odin.Skeero 2014-07-16 13:13:58
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Sieha1 said: »
Odin.Skeero said: »
*** *** *** *** *** you se. I got half chub when i read the title, and now im inverted. ***

probably a good thing so you dont get the idea to reproduce.

anyways in the end asking drg to be equal with sam would require removing the wyvern and removing any other utility abilities. Most people look at ws damage and miss out on the rest of the picture.

I understand that alot of people enjoy drg (why who knows but whatever) but it wont be a dd master like sam or even to a lesser extent mnk. It can be good but wont be equal with sam. I think they are trying to bridge the gap in the correct way to maintain balance by bringing up the pet's ability.

any pet job should have some kind of balance where if you add the pet with the master it gets close to a lower dd like war and if the pet job is really well geared it can get closer to mnk and sam. However thinking that drg itself will get to be as strong as sam without adding the wyvern is just kind of silly.

How dare us for liking drg and being upset because we are getting the shaft once again.
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By Sieha1 2014-07-16 13:17:57
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its like complaining that pup isnt a good dd. its not suppose to be. drg is s pet job, utility based not dd based. Its veritable based on what you are doing.

if you play it because it does the most damage you probably should look at it again. if you play it because you like it then take it for what it is. a little buff from SE here and there keeps it stable but it wont move from its spot: a pet job.
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By Asura.Reichleiu 2014-07-16 13:26:28
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Sieha1 said: »
its like complaining that pup isnt a good dd. its not suppose to be. drg is s pet job, utility based not dd based. Its veritable based on what you are doing.

if you play it because it does the most damage you probably should look at it again. if you play it because you like it then take it for what it is. a little buff from SE here and there keeps it stable but it wont move from its spot: a pet job.

See.. again this is the problem. DRG is not a pet job and never has been. Our "Pet" is a complete and utter joke and ALWAYS has been. If they want to make it a pet job then fine, by all means do it. But it is not in its current form a pet job so they would literally have to change everything about DRG. Right now, its a DD job with no offensive buffing capabilities that has a sidekick who can't fight its way out of a paper bag.

Its a poorly designed job that doesn't fit into either category and needs to be fixed. If its going to be a DD going forward, boost DRG and leave the pet the way it is. If they want it to be a "Pet Job" then the wyvern needs a MASSIVE boost, because its a complete joke.

DRG is not a pet job. I've been playing it for 11 years and the same nonsense about not buffing it because it has a "Pet" has always been BS.

Example.. I WS for 8k Damage, my pet does a 200 damage breath attack. Ya.. some pet..
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By Fenrir.Atheryn 2014-07-16 13:36:00
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Avatars are pets. Automatons are pets. Anything charmable/call-beast-able is a pet. Wyverns are minions.
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2014-07-16 13:51:45
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Sieha1 said: »
its like complaining that pup isnt a good dd. its not suppose to be. drg is s pet job, utility based not dd based. Its veritable based on what you are doing.

if you play it because it does the most damage you probably should look at it again. if you play it because you like it then take it for what it is. a little buff from SE here and there keeps it stable but it wont move from its spot: a pet job.


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 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-07-16 14:05:38
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Wyvern could become a good dot if it wasn't always breath-locked, as in taking forever to cast weak breaths at every ws of the master. Sometimes you just wanna tell her pls, give up you're just gonna get a sore throat.
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 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2014-07-16 14:08:03
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Sieha1 said: »
its like complaining that pup isnt a good dd. its not suppose to be. drg is s pet job, utility based not dd based. Its veritable based on what you are doing.

if you play it because it does the most damage you probably should look at it again. if you play it because you like it then take it for what it is. a little buff from SE here and there keeps it stable but it wont move from its spot: a pet job.

You can be satisfied with drg the way it is if you want but others are not and I personally think this line of "logic" to be faulty. Being a "pet job" should not exclude one from events or force you to be so under powered. Again, I'm not claiming drg should be stronger than sam or even equal to it but the balance here is just right out.

Fenrir.Atheryn said: »
Avatars are pets. Automatons are pets. Anything charmable/call-beast-able is a pet. Wyverns are minions.

I think this is a very good point. We can only influence our wyverns. They won't attack unless we are. I don't care if you call drg a pet job or not but either way, there's a huge difference in the way they work so that difference should be accounted for.
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-07-16 14:18:10
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Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »
Sieha1 said: »
its like complaining that pup isnt a good dd. its not suppose to be. drg is s pet job, utility based not dd based. Its veritable based on what you are doing.

if you play it because it does the most damage you probably should look at it again. if you play it because you like it then take it for what it is. a little buff from SE here and there keeps it stable but it wont move from its spot: a pet job.

You can be satisfied with drg the way it is if you want but others are not and I personally think this line of "logic" to be faulty. Being a "pet job" should not exclude one from events or force you to be so under powered. Again, I'm not claiming drg should be stronger than sam or even equal to it but the balance here is just right out.

Fenrir.Atheryn said: »
Avatars are pets. Automatons are pets. Anything charmable/call-beast-able is a pet. Wyverns are minions.

I think this is a very good point. We can only influence our wyverns. They won't attack unless we are. I don't care if you call drg a pet job or not but either way, there's a huge difference in the way they work so that difference should be accounted for.
Dragoon was never originally implemented as a pet job, on any scale.

Additionally, in regards to puppetmasters, they can do quite well when it comes to damage and dps, much more so than dragoon can, with only minor tweaks, while a dragoon, requires A LOT of buffing, and serious equipment.
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By Sieha1 2014-07-16 14:19:12
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Ragnarok.Afania said: »
durrr

oh hi how are you doing. welcome back.
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By Asura.Loire 2014-07-16 14:24:47
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Fenrir.Atheryn said: »
Avatars are pets. Automatons are pets. Anything charmable/call-beast-able is a pet. Wyverns are minions.
Pretty sure the ja is call wyvern and under your categories it would place it as a pet job. Truth be told the way it should work is placing drg with wyvern out on the same level of damage output as a drk or mnk in current content on neutral mobs and have it drop down in damage when the pet is dead. Show its utility in piercing weak and melee friendly situations.

Breaths would need to be potent and instant (ws speed). As always the inability to buff the pet as you would the master even with the ability to share some buffs just really doesn't cut it. Pair that with how quick it can go down in heavy AoE settings they would need to really ramp up the -dt by a lot.
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