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DMV Asks Boy to Remove Makeup
Server: Bahamut
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-06-17 13:42:37
Quote: Teen Told to Remove Makeup to 'Look More Like a Boy' for Driver's License Photo
A South Carolina teen who was forced to remove his makeup to “look more like a boy” for his driver’s license photo wants the chance to have a new photo taken, one where he dresses as he wants to.
Chase Culpepper is 16 years old and chooses to wear makeup and androgynous or girls’ clothing. He went to the DMV on March 3 with his mother to have his driver’s license photo taken, but was told that he couldn’t have his photo taken unless he removed his makeup, being told he had to “look more like a boy”, which he eventually did.
“This is who I am and my clothing and makeup reflect that. The Department of Motor Vehicles should not have forced me to remove my makeup simply because my appearance does not meet their expectations of what a boy should look like. I just want the freedom to be who I am without the DMV telling me that I’m somehow not good enough. I also want to make sure that other gender non-conforming kids and adults do not have to go through this in the future.”
The DMV have justified the decision on the grounds that Culpepper’s makeup is a “disguise” that conceals his identity, which is explicitly forbidden by a clause in the driver’s license photo policy: "At no time can an applicant be photographed when it appears that he or she is purposefully altering his or her appearance so that the photo would misrepresent his or her identity."
The Transgender Legal Defense & Education Fund are now representing Culpepper, and have contacted the DMV on his behalf. They’re asking the DMV to retake the photo, makeup intact. They believe that Culpepper’s free speech rights have been violated, as Michael Silverman explains:
“Chase’s freedom to express his gender should not be restricted by DMV staff. He is entitled to be who he is and to express that without interference from government actors. Forcing Chase to remove his makeup prior to taking his driver’s license photo restricts his free speech rights in violation of state and federal constitutional protections.”
Teen Told to Remove Makeup to 'Look More Like a Boy' for Driver's License Photo
They are not showing how much makeup the boy had on. I think that any individual should be asked to remove makeup if it's excessive.
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-06-17 13:45:59
Plot Twist: He tried to get a drivers license as the Joker.
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By Fenrir.Squintik 2014-06-17 14:47:11
I always thought the purpose of photo ID was so others can confirm your identity, not so you can express yourself.
By Heimdel 2014-06-17 14:51:13
I would say he shouldn't get his panties in a bunch but umm ya...
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By Odin.Godofgods 2014-06-17 14:53:03
i might actually have to agree with that. The photo is for natural identification purposes. Its one thing if he had blush or eyeliner on or something, but full on makeup can flat out change how you look. (aint that the reason for it anyway?) Otherwise Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Plot Twist: He tried to get a drivers license as the Joker. stuff like that would actually happen.
By Jetackuu 2014-06-17 14:54:39
I don't care if he wants to wear makeup, but that's not the point of an id.
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-06-17 15:02:27
I always thought the purpose of photo ID was so others can confirm your identity, not so you can express yourself.
Quote: Chase’s freedom to express his gender should not be restricted by DMV staff.
The DMV already asks you to remove glasses when taking your photo removing your makeup should be non-issue. This is a state issued government identification card, not your facebook profile pic.
Why The Transgender Legal Defense & Education Fund is involving themselves in this case baffles me. It's bad publicity for them if you ask me.
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2014-06-17 15:02:46
Someone will inevitably make the Appalachian mountains out of this Mole Hill. My money's on the transgender community.
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-06-17 15:03:44
i might actually have to agree with that. The photo is for natural identification purposes. Its one thing if he had blush or eyeliner on or something, but full on makeup can flat out change how you look. (aint that the reason for it anyway?) Otherwise Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Plot Twist: He tried to get a drivers license as the Joker. stuff like that would actually happen. It has.
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-06-17 15:06:40
I don't know the details of the case in question, but would people still defend the DMV if they required men to shave beards/mustaches for better identification?
Perhaps photo identification on its own is not a proper way to identify a person, and it should be accepted that people can and do differ from their photo.
I've never heard of a woman being turned away from the DMV for too much make-up... but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Women have been asked to tone down their make up as well.
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-06-17 15:07:14
I don't know the details of the case in question, but would people still defend the DMV if they required men to shave beards/mustaches for better identification?
Cosmetics can alter an individual's appearance much more than a beard/mustache.
Carbuncle.Anesthesia
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By Carbuncle.Anesthesia 2014-06-17 15:09:42
I always thought the purpose of photo ID was so others can confirm your identity, not so you can express yourself.
I agree this is the purpose. That said, the best way to accomplish this is probably by letting him wear makeup. If you're going to be wearing women's clothes and makeup 99% of the time, looking like a male in your driver's license is actually going to impede the process of others confirming your identity (the stated purpose of the card), and will cause no shortage of problems for the holder of the ID card.
I may not be thinking it through, but I'm not sure what unscrupulous advantage one could obtain by purposely not looking like your ID photo, so I don't see any reason not to let him look like he's going to look to anyone trying to confirm his ID.
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Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-06-17 15:11:18

Looks fine. Nothing garrish.
The problem is that boys can't wear makeup because reasons.
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-06-17 15:15:22
Looks fine. Nothing garrish.
The problem is that boys can't wear makeup because reasons.
That's the photo Frontier's published. Photos or video released by the DMV have not been released. The Frontier's Magazine photo is also clearly using short depth of field and possibly soft-focus on his face, so it's kinda hard to tell how much makeup he has on in that photo.
EDIT: Like I said in my OP, if he's wearing 10lbs of foundation or enough to qualify for RuPaul's Drag Race that's just too much. Some powder with a stippling brush and a little blush never hurt anyone!

My personal favorite concealer!
Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-06-17 15:19:11
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-06-17 15:21:32
Who is making the judgement call?
Carbuncle.Anesthesia
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By Carbuncle.Anesthesia 2014-06-17 15:31:53
My problem here is with the DMV's concept of "Disguise." To my mind, a disguise is something one would don for a short period of time for the express purpose of deceiving others with regard to your identity.
If you spend the majority of your time with a radically altered appearance that people associate with you as a person, that's not a disguise, e.g. Joe has facial piercings and pink hair, that person with facial piercings and pink hair is Joe.
I think the discrimination issue here is a bit of a red herring. An ID card should facilitate your recognition in situations where such recognition is required. If I have pink and blue hair and eighteen facial piercings at all times, it's probably best that my picture be taken to reflect the way I look so as to quickly and efficiently expedite my recognition. If I dress as a female at all times, it's probably best that my picture be taken to reflect the way I look so as to quickly and efficiently expedite my recognition. I don't see gender rights really having anything to do with this issue/process.
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By Zyla 2014-06-17 15:39:22
Carbuncle.Anesthesia said: »I always thought the purpose of photo ID was so others can confirm your identity, not so you can express yourself.
I agree this is the purpose. That said, the best way to accomplish this is probably by letting him wear makeup. If you're going to be wearing women's clothes and makeup 99% of the time, looking like a male in your driver's license is actually going to impede the process of others confirming your identity (the stated purpose of the card), and will cause no shortage of problems for the holder of the ID card.
I may not be thinking it through, but I'm not sure what unscrupulous advantage one could obtain by purposely not looking like your ID photo, so I don't see any reason not to let him look like he's going to look to anyone trying to confirm his ID.
the same could be said for the opposite as well, say this person is involved in a crime but the appearance they had when they had the id made vs. the appearance they had when involved in said crime is drastically different? it's going to cause the same identification problems because the authorities would be looking for someone with a completely different look. you wanna express your individuality and personality differently from the norm fine, that's who you are and nobody has a right to judge you for that. by the same token there is a time and place for everything, and going to the dmv to have a legal identification card made is not the time to play dress up pretty princess. just my 2 cents.
Leviathan.Matteh
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By Leviathan.Matteh 2014-06-17 15:40:04
What if he died without his make up on like rolling out of bed, head hits night stand, breaks neck, HOW WOULD WE KNOW WHO HE IS without the make up =p
With that aside, If they let women do it with make up, the boy should be allowed to do so as well. a Good PR photo is a good PR photo, no matter if its on a DMV ID or not
Carbuncle.Anesthesia
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By Carbuncle.Anesthesia 2014-06-17 15:43:47
The same could be said for the opposite as well, say this person is involved in a crime but the appearance they had when they had the id made vs. the appearance they had when involved in said crime is drastically different?
Then your face is going to be drastically different from your ID card, which is going to lead to a host of questions from any police who happen to stop you, which is exactly what a criminal doesn't want.
That's why a criminal in that situation would obtain a fake ID that matched their new appearance instead of holding on to their old one which did not, and exactly why this situation doesn't apply to non-criminals who have the goal of being properly identified so they can go do whatever thing requires identification and get on with their life.
This is of course leaving aside the issue that no criminal in their right mind would hold onto an ID card that positively identified them as a wanted individual.
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-06-17 15:51:02
I'd argue that the base face(un-altered) is a much better indicator of what a face will look like with cosmetics on.
Since cosmetics application can vary immensely, an unaltered face is going to be a lot more useful at identifying an individual. Simply because one day I can go for bronzer one day I will not.
E.g. I can do a simple mineral application. Mineral foundation
I can do a heavier application using liquid foundation.
I can do a super heavy application using liquid foundation, bronzer and blush.
That third super-heavy application is going to alter the appearence of the face's natural countours. Especially with bronzer I can alter the face structure and jaw line.

The areas with red are those where bronzer has been applied. As you can see her jawline, nose structure, cheekbone and forehead have all been drastically altered.
By Zyla 2014-06-17 15:52:56
you drastically underestimate the stupidity of the vast majority of criminals these days, many of them perform criminal acts out of sheer stupidity or desperation to begin with and often isn't planned very well at all.
beyond that if a person who is a man that usually dresses and alters their appearance to be seen as a woman has an ID made and then they decide to commit a crime with their actual non-altered appearance it just became that much harder to identify the said individual and bring them to justice. although yes i do concede the point that it works the other was as well, someone could just as easily alter their image to perform a crime the opposite way. regardless once all the make up and modifications come off is how you actually look and that is what should be on your legal ID to start with.
Carbuncle.Anesthesia
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By Carbuncle.Anesthesia 2014-06-17 15:55:19
Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »I'd argue that the base face(un-altered) is a much better indicator of what a face will look like with cosmetics on.
Since cosmetics application can vary immensely, an unaltered face is going to be a lot more useful at identifying an individual.
E.g. I can do a simple mineral application. Mineral foundation
I can do a heavier application using liquid foundation.
I can do a super heavy application using liquid foundation, bronzer and blush.
That third super-heavy application is going to alter the appearence of the face's natural countours. Especially with bronzer I can alter the face structure and jaw line.

If we went about our day to day lives being identified by facial recgonition experts, this would probably be a good way to go about it.
The clerk at the liquor store isn't going to bother to deconstruct your facial lines though, and if he's faced with an apparent girl with a guy's photo ID, it's easier for him to just deny the sale than try to wade through the person's improbable sounding story of gender identity issues resulting in a gender-swapped liscense.
Carbuncle.Anesthesia
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By Carbuncle.Anesthesia 2014-06-17 16:01:53
you drastically underestimate the stupidity of the vast majority of criminals these days, many of them perform criminal acts out of sheer stupidity or desperation to begin with and often isn't planned very well at all.
I'm not seeing how a gender-swapped license is hurting or helping the stupid criminals you speak of. I'd kind of like an explanation there.
beyond that if a person who is a man that usually dresses and alters their appearance to be seen as a woman has an ID made and then they decide to commit a crime with their actual non-altered appearance it just became that much harder to identify the said individual and bring them to justice. although yes i do concede the point that it works the other was as well, someone could just as easily alter their image to perform a crime the opposite way.
You conceded the point in advance. Not only that, It would be a LOT easier for a non-trans criminal to get a normal license, disguise themselves as a woman, commit a crime, and go about their normal male life than it would be for them to get a license as a woman, commit a crime as a male, and spend the rest of their lives in disguise. Simply not practical.
regardless once all the make up and modifications come off is how you actually look and that is what should be on your legal ID to start with.
You are just stating that this is the way you think it should be. You haven't provided any reasoning or arguments supporting your opinion.
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-06-17 16:05:07
Carbuncle.Anesthesia said: »If we went about our day to day lives being identified by facial recgonition experts, this would probably be a good way to go about it.
The clerk at the liquor store isn't going to bother to deconstruct your facial lines though, and if he's faced with an apparent girl with a guy's photo ID, it's easier for him to just deny the sale than try to wade through the person's improbable sounding story of gender identity issues resulting in a gender-swapped liscense.
Is the clerk the only one making the facial recognition though? Law enforcement agencies and facial recognition experts are going to be looking at facial contours and what not.
I agree the boy should be allowed to wear make-up to his "photo shoot" especially if that's how he looks on an average day. My point is when the cosmetics become a bit extreme and he's applying bronzer and blush etc which is going to alter his facial contours.
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By Fenrir.Weakness 2014-06-17 16:05:28
I'm usually pretty "Do whatever you want" towards these things, but I'm gonna have to side with the DMV here.
I've been stuck behind women getting asked to take off their make-up (and the ***storm that followed) while updating my license, and I have also been stuck behind a girl with blue streaks asked to come back with a "natural" hair color (and the ***storm that followed again...).
Pretty sure it really has nothing against the person's expressions in general, and more to do with a photo ID of what you're naturally to look like. In all 500 or so of my photo IDs I have been asked to take off my glasses and flatten my hair (when I have hair that is), and I'm pretty sure they were just looking to get a general picture of me, not what I happened to look like on that day.
Leviathan.Matteh
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By Leviathan.Matteh 2014-06-17 16:08:42
The use of make up in a ID Photo is fine because Mortuary Makeup Artist will know how the person should look with the make-up on.
Carbuncle.Anesthesia
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By Carbuncle.Anesthesia 2014-06-17 16:15:22
Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »Carbuncle.Anesthesia said: »If we went about our day to day lives being identified by facial recgonition experts, this would probably be a good way to go about it.
The clerk at the liquor store isn't going to bother to deconstruct your facial lines though, and if he's faced with an apparent girl with a guy's photo ID, it's easier for him to just deny the sale than try to wade through the person's improbable sounding story of gender identity issues resulting in a gender-swapped liscense.
Is the clerk the only one making the facial recognition though? Law enforcement agencies and facial recognition experts are going to be looking at facial contours and what not.
I agree the boy should be allowed to wear make-up to his "photo shoot" especially if that's how he looks on an average day. My point is when the cosmetics become a bit extreme and he's applying bronzer and blush etc which is going to alter his facial contours.
I was going to say that the requirements for being an average cop are a ged and a quick community college course that doesn't include much in the way of facial recognition, but upon thinking about it, I can't see it much mattering even if for argument's sake, every cop out there is a super sleuth when it comes to faces.
I guess I'm just not seeing the anti-crime benefit of having an ID that matches your base face with no makeup. If you look radically different from your base appearance both in real life and on your ID, I'm not seeing exactly what it is that that's hurting, even if the cosmetics are extreme. I don't see it helping anyone get away with any crimes. I'm open to an explanation of how this would help someone commit a crime, but I can't think of any myself. Some of my reasoning on this issue can be seen above in my responses to Zyla.
As long as I can't see any reason why looking radically different in both your license and in your actual appearance is hurting anything, I've got to say you should be able to look like you're usually going to look for purposes of convenience/not having to give a stranger your life story every time you want to buy liquor, enter an amusement park etc. etc.
Quote: Teen Told to Remove Makeup to 'Look More Like a Boy' for Driver's License Photo
A South Carolina teen who was forced to remove his makeup to “look more like a boy” for his driver’s license photo wants the chance to have a new photo taken, one where he dresses as he wants to.
Chase Culpepper is 16 years old and chooses to wear makeup and androgynous or girls’ clothing. He went to the DMV on March 3 with his mother to have his driver’s license photo taken, but was told that he couldn’t have his photo taken unless he removed his makeup, being told he had to “look more like a boy”, which he eventually did.
“This is who I am and my clothing and makeup reflect that. The Department of Motor Vehicles should not have forced me to remove my makeup simply because my appearance does not meet their expectations of what a boy should look like. I just want the freedom to be who I am without the DMV telling me that I’m somehow not good enough. I also want to make sure that other gender non-conforming kids and adults do not have to go through this in the future.”
The DMV have justified the decision on the grounds that Culpepper’s makeup is a “disguise” that conceals his identity, which is explicitly forbidden by a clause in the driver’s license photo policy: "At no time can an applicant be photographed when it appears that he or she is purposefully altering his or her appearance so that the photo would misrepresent his or her identity."
The Transgender Legal Defense & Education Fund are now representing Culpepper, and have contacted the DMV on his behalf. They’re asking the DMV to retake the photo, makeup intact. They believe that Culpepper’s free speech rights have been violated, as Michael Silverman explains:
“Chase’s freedom to express his gender should not be restricted by DMV staff. He is entitled to be who he is and to express that without interference from government actors. Forcing Chase to remove his makeup prior to taking his driver’s license photo restricts his free speech rights in violation of state and federal constitutional protections.”
Teen Told to Remove Makeup to 'Look More Like a Boy' for Driver's License Photo
They are not showing how much makeup the boy had on. I think that any individual should be asked to remove makeup if it's excessive.
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