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Random Politics & Religion #00
By fonewear 2015-06-29 15:50:13
I should start a petition on change.org or something similar for large amount of amphetamines to be dumped into public water supplies.
First you got to get the fluoride out of the tap water that kills millions of people a year !
Start at 1:05
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Lakshmi.Flavin
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Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-06-29 15:54:01
Are homosexual couples somehow "not qualified" to be parents? If so, what would make them unilaterally unqualified?
I'll take the bait. Maybe the church believes that homosexual couples aren't the preferred suit to parenthood.
Why are they not allowed to think that and practice business according to their beliefs? Why would they believe that though? Is it based on actual experience with the matter at hand where they can point out that homosexual couples do not foster proper growth in an individual or is it just something that god told them not to let happen at some point?
They can think whatever they want but don't expect anyone to take them all that seriously if their reasoning is "god". If you can show that these parents would not be able to provide a loving and nurturing home then fine. If you flat out decline an application before they even walk through the door for no other reason than "gay" there is a problem. I'm not particularly sure what part the church serves as a function to facilitate these adoptions so I can't say for sure how their participation would be affected and I'd have to read up more on it.
They take government money, that's why. So what? You'd rather keep kids in foster care? Isn't that what they allow to happen? I mean you're literally rejecting possible candidates right away and what could be a good home based on predjudice alone it seems. Sorry kiddo you have to wait til some hetero parents want you.
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Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-06-29 15:55:41
First you got to get the fluoride out of the tap water that kills millions of people a year ! Nah, we need that for population control.
[+]
By fonewear 2015-06-29 16:02:18
We knew this was coming Polygamy Now: I love the smell of my multiple wives in the morning !
TLDR: Slippery slope argument.
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/06/gay-marriage-decision-polygamy-119469.html?ml=po#.VZGyI0aLVQI
Welcome to the exciting new world of the slippery slope. With the Supreme Court’s landmark ruling this Friday legalizing same sex marriage in all 50 states, social liberalism has achieved one of its central goals. A right seemingly unthinkable two decades ago has now been broadly applied to a whole new class of citizens. Following on the rejection of interracial marriage bans in the 20th Century, the Supreme Court decision clearly shows that marriage should be a broadly applicable right—one that forces the government to recognize, as Friday’s decision said, a private couple’s “love, fidelity, devotion, sacrifice and family.”
The question presents itself: Where does the next advance come? The answer is going to make nearly everyone uncomfortable: Now that we’ve defined that love and devotion and family isn’t driven by gender alone, why should it be limited to just two individuals? The most natural advance next for marriage lies in legalized polygamy—yet many of the same people who pressed for marriage equality for gay couples oppose it.
This is not an abstract issue. In Chief Justice John Roberts’ dissenting opinion, he remarks, “It is striking how much of the majority’s reasoning would apply with equal force to the claim of a fundamental right to plural marriage.” As is often the case with critics of polygamy, he neglects to mention why this is a fate to be feared. Polygamy today stands as a taboo just as strong as same-sex marriage was several decades ago—it’s effectively only discussed as outdated jokes about Utah and Mormons, who banned the practice over 120 years ago.
Yet the moral reasoning behind society’s rejection of polygamy remains just as uncomfortable and legally weak as same-sex marriage opposition was until recently.
That’s one reason why progressives who reject the case for legal polygamy often don’t really appear to have their hearts in it. They seem uncomfortable voicing their objections, clearly unused to being in the position of rejecting the appeals of those who would codify non-traditional relationships in law. They are, without exception, accepting of the right of consenting adults to engage in whatever sexual and romantic relationships they choose, but oppose the formal, legal recognition of those relationships. They’re trapped, I suspect, in prior opposition that they voiced from a standpoint of political pragmatism in order to advance the cause of gay marriage.
In doing so, they do real harm to real people. Marriage is not just a formal codification of informal relationships. It’s also a defensive system designed to protect the interests of people whose material, economic and emotional security depends on the marriage in question. If my liberal friends recognize the legitimacy of free people who choose to form romantic partnerships with multiple partners, how can they deny them the right to the legal protections marriage affords?
Polyamory is a fact. People are living in group relationships today. The question is not whether they will continue on in those relationships. The question is whether we will grant to them the same basic recognition we grant to other adults: that love makes marriage, and that the right to marry is exactly that, a right.
Why the opposition, from those who have no interest in preserving “traditional marriage” or forbidding polyamorous relationships? I think the answer has to do with political momentum, with a kind of ad hoc-rejection of polygamy as necessary political concession. And in time, I think it will change.
The marriage equality movement has been both the best and worst thing that could happen for legally sanctioned polygamy. The best, because that movement has required a sustained and effective assault on “traditional marriage” arguments that reflected no particular point of view other than that marriage should stay the same because it’s always been the same. In particular, the notion that procreation and child-rearing are the natural justification for marriage has been dealt a terminal injury. We don’t, after all, ban marriage for those who can’t conceive, or annul marriages that don’t result in children, or make couples pinkie swear that they’ll have kids not too long after they get married. We have insisted instead that the institution exists to enshrine in law a special kind of long-term commitment, and to extend certain essential logistical and legal benefits to those who make that commitment. And rightly so.
But the marriage equality movement has been curiously hostile to polygamy, and for a particularly unsatisfying reason: short-term political need. Many conservative opponents of marriage equality have made the slippery slope argument, insisting that same-sex marriages would lead inevitably to further redefinition of what marriage is and means. See, for example, Rick Santorum’s infamous “man on dog” comments, in which he equated the desire of two adult men or women to be married with bestiality. Polygamy has frequently been a part of these slippery slope arguments. Typical of such arguments, the reasons why marriage between more than two partners would be destructive were taken as a given. Many proponents of marriage equality, I’m sorry to say, went along with this evidence-free indictment of polygamous matrimony. They choose to side-step the issue by insisting that gay marriage wouldn’t lead to polygamy. That legally sanctioned polygamy was a fate worth fearing went without saying.
To be clear: our lack of legal recognition of group marriages is not the fault of the marriage equality movement. Rather, it’s that the tactics of that movement have made getting to serious discussions of legalized polygamy harder. I say that while recognizing the unprecedented and necessary success of those tactics. I understand the political pragmatism in wanting to hold the line—to not be perceived to be slipping down the slope. To advocate for polygamy during the marriage equality fight may have seemed to confirm the socially conservative narrative, that gay marriage augured a wholesale collapse in traditional values. But times have changed; while work remains to be done, the immediate danger to marriage equality has passed. In 2005, a denial of the right to group marriage stemming from political pragmatism made at least some sense. In 2015, after this ruling, it no longer does.
While important legal and practical questions remain unresolved, with the Supreme Court’s ruling and broad public support, marriage equality is here to stay. Soon, it will be time to turn the attention of social liberalism to the next horizon. Given that many of us have argued, to great effect, that deference to tradition is not a legitimate reason to restrict marriage rights to groups that want them, the next step seems clear. We should turn our efforts towards the legal recognition of marriages between more than two partners. It’s time to legalize polygamy.
***
Conventional arguments against polygamy fall apart with even a little examination. Appeals to traditional marriage, and the notion that child rearing is the only legitimate justification of legal marriage, have now, I hope, been exposed and discarded by all progressive people. What’s left is a series of jerry-rigged arguments that reflect no coherent moral vision of what marriage is for, and which frequently function as criticisms of traditional marriage as well.
Many argue that polygamous marriages are typically sites of abuse, inequality in power and coercion. Some refer to sociological research showing a host of ills that are associated with polygamous family structures. These claims are both true and beside the point. Yes, it’s true that many polygamous marriages come from patriarchal systems, typically employing a “hub and spokes” model where one husband has several wives who are not married to each other. These marriages are often of the husband-as-boss variety, and we have good reason to suspect that such models have higher rates of abuse, both physical and emotional, and coercion. But this is a classic case of blaming a social problem on its trappings rather than on its actual origins.
After all, traditional marriages often foster abuse. Traditional marriages are frequently patriarchal. Traditional marriages often feature ugly gender and power dynamics. Indeed, many would argue that marriage’s origins stem from a desire to formalize patriarchal structures within the family in the first place. We’ve pursued marriage equality at the same time as we’ve pursued more equitable, more feminist heterosexual marriages, out of a conviction that the franchise is worth improving, worth saving. If we’re going to ban marriages because some are sites of sexism and abuse, then we’d have to start with the old fashioned one-husband-and-one-wife model. If polygamy tends to be found within religious traditions that seem alien or regressive to the rest of us, that is a function of the very illegality that should be done away with. Legalize group marriage and you will find its connection with abuse disappears.
Another common argument, and another unsatisfying one, is logistical. In this telling, polygamous marriages would strain the infrastructure of our legal systems of marriage, as they are not designed to handle marriage between more than two people. In particular, the claim is frequently made that the division of property upon divorce or death would be too complicated for polygamous marriages. I find this argument eerily reminiscent of similar efforts to dismiss same-sex marriage on practical grounds. (The forms say husband and wife! What do you want us to do, print new forms?) Logistics, it should go without saying, are insufficient reason to deny human beings human rights.
If current legal structures and precedents aren’t conducive to group marriage, then they will be built in time. The comparison to traditional marriage is again instructive. We have, after all, many decades of case law and legal organization dedicated to marriage, and yet divorce and family courts feature some of the most bitterly contested cases imaginable. Complication and dispute are byproducts of human relationships and human commitment. We could, as a civil society, create a legal expectation that those engaging in a group marriage create binding documents and contracts that clearly delineate questions of inheritance, alimony, and the like. Prenups are already a thing.
Most dispiriting, and least convincing, are those arguments that simply reconstitute the slippery slope arguments that have been used for so long against same sex marriage. “If we allow group marriage,” the thinking seems to go, “why wouldn’t marriage with animals or children come next?” The difference is, of course, consent. In recent years, a progressive and enlightened movement has worked to insist that consent is the measure of all things in sexual and romantic practice: as long as all involved in any particular sexual or romantic relationship are consenting adults, everything is permissible; if any individual does not give free and informed consent, no sexual or romantic engagement can be condoned.
This bedrock principle of mutually-informed consent explains exactly why we must permit polygamy and must oppose bestiality and child marriage. Animals are incapable of voicing consent; children are incapable of understanding what it means to consent. In contrast, consenting adults who all knowingly and willfully decide to enter into a joint marriage contract, free of coercion, should be permitted to do so, according to basic principles of personal liberty. The preeminence of the principle of consent is a just and pragmatic way to approach adult relationships in a world of multivariate and complex human desires.
Progressives have always flattered themselves that time is on their side, that their preferences are in keeping with the arc of history. In the fight for marriage equality, this claim has been made again and again. Many have challenged our politicians and our people to ask themselves whether they can imagine a future in which opposition to marriage equality is seen as a principled stance. I think it’s time to turn the question back on them: given what you know about the advancement of human rights, are you sure your opposition to group marriage won’t sound as anachronistic as opposition to gay marriage sounds to you now? And since we have insisted that there is no legitimate way to oppose gay marriage and respect gay love, how can you oppose group marriage and respect group love?
I suspect that many progressives would recognize, when pushed in this way, that the case against polygamy is incredibly flimsy, almost entirely lacking in rational basis and animated by purely irrational fears and prejudice. What we’re left with is an unsatisfying patchwork of unconvincing arguments and bad ideas, ones embraced for short-term convenience at long-term cost. We must insist that rights cannot be dismissed out of short-term interests of logistics and political pragmatism. The course then, is clear: to look beyond political convenience and conservative intransigence, and begin to make the case for extending legal marriage rights to more loving and committed adults. It’s time.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-06-29 16:26:43
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Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-06-29 16:29:32
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-06-29 16:30:36
They take government money, that's why. So what? You'd rather keep kids in foster care?
No, I'd rather maintain the integrity of the first amendment. For someone who waxes on so much about the constitution, you sure do overlook a lot of it.
Oh right, thanks for opening my eyes Mr. "libertarian". <rolls eyes>
That's exactly the purpose of religious freedom, your interpretation is objectively wrong. The government cannot be connected to religious establishments in that way without passively endorsing their views. I'm sure you'd have a problem with a Muslim organization taking tax dollars and using it to fund unlawful and discriminatory practices.
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Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-06-29 16:37:08
We knew this was coming Polygamy Now: I love the smell of my multiple wives in the morning !
TLDR: Slippery slope argument.
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/06/gay-marriage-decision-polygamy-119469.html?ml=po#.VZGyI0aLVQI
Welcome to the exciting new world of the slippery slope. With the Supreme Court’s landmark ruling this Friday legalizing same sex marriage in all 50 states, social liberalism has achieved one of its central goals. A right seemingly unthinkable two decades ago has now been broadly applied to a whole new class of citizens. Following on the rejection of interracial marriage bans in the 20th Century, the Supreme Court decision clearly shows that marriage should be a broadly applicable right—one that forces the government to recognize, as Friday’s decision said, a private couple’s “love, fidelity, devotion, sacrifice and family.”
The question presents itself: Where does the next advance come? The answer is going to make nearly everyone uncomfortable: Now that we’ve defined that love and devotion and family isn’t driven by gender alone, why should it be limited to just two individuals? The most natural advance next for marriage lies in legalized polygamy—yet many of the same people who pressed for marriage equality for gay couples oppose it.
This is not an abstract issue. In Chief Justice John Roberts’ dissenting opinion, he remarks, “It is striking how much of the majority’s reasoning would apply with equal force to the claim of a fundamental right to plural marriage.” As is often the case with critics of polygamy, he neglects to mention why this is a fate to be feared. Polygamy today stands as a taboo just as strong as same-sex marriage was several decades ago—it’s effectively only discussed as outdated jokes about Utah and Mormons, who banned the practice over 120 years ago.
Yet the moral reasoning behind society’s rejection of polygamy remains just as uncomfortable and legally weak as same-sex marriage opposition was until recently.
That’s one reason why progressives who reject the case for legal polygamy often don’t really appear to have their hearts in it. They seem uncomfortable voicing their objections, clearly unused to being in the position of rejecting the appeals of those who would codify non-traditional relationships in law. They are, without exception, accepting of the right of consenting adults to engage in whatever sexual and romantic relationships they choose, but oppose the formal, legal recognition of those relationships. They’re trapped, I suspect, in prior opposition that they voiced from a standpoint of political pragmatism in order to advance the cause of gay marriage.
In doing so, they do real harm to real people. Marriage is not just a formal codification of informal relationships. It’s also a defensive system designed to protect the interests of people whose material, economic and emotional security depends on the marriage in question. If my liberal friends recognize the legitimacy of free people who choose to form romantic partnerships with multiple partners, how can they deny them the right to the legal protections marriage affords?
Polyamory is a fact. People are living in group relationships today. The question is not whether they will continue on in those relationships. The question is whether we will grant to them the same basic recognition we grant to other adults: that love makes marriage, and that the right to marry is exactly that, a right.
Why the opposition, from those who have no interest in preserving “traditional marriage” or forbidding polyamorous relationships? I think the answer has to do with political momentum, with a kind of ad hoc-rejection of polygamy as necessary political concession. And in time, I think it will change.
The marriage equality movement has been both the best and worst thing that could happen for legally sanctioned polygamy. The best, because that movement has required a sustained and effective assault on “traditional marriage” arguments that reflected no particular point of view other than that marriage should stay the same because it’s always been the same. In particular, the notion that procreation and child-rearing are the natural justification for marriage has been dealt a terminal injury. We don’t, after all, ban marriage for those who can’t conceive, or annul marriages that don’t result in children, or make couples pinkie swear that they’ll have kids not too long after they get married. We have insisted instead that the institution exists to enshrine in law a special kind of long-term commitment, and to extend certain essential logistical and legal benefits to those who make that commitment. And rightly so.
But the marriage equality movement has been curiously hostile to polygamy, and for a particularly unsatisfying reason: short-term political need. Many conservative opponents of marriage equality have made the slippery slope argument, insisting that same-sex marriages would lead inevitably to further redefinition of what marriage is and means. See, for example, Rick Santorum’s infamous “man on dog” comments, in which he equated the desire of two adult men or women to be married with bestiality. Polygamy has frequently been a part of these slippery slope arguments. Typical of such arguments, the reasons why marriage between more than two partners would be destructive were taken as a given. Many proponents of marriage equality, I’m sorry to say, went along with this evidence-free indictment of polygamous matrimony. They choose to side-step the issue by insisting that gay marriage wouldn’t lead to polygamy. That legally sanctioned polygamy was a fate worth fearing went without saying.
To be clear: our lack of legal recognition of group marriages is not the fault of the marriage equality movement. Rather, it’s that the tactics of that movement have made getting to serious discussions of legalized polygamy harder. I say that while recognizing the unprecedented and necessary success of those tactics. I understand the political pragmatism in wanting to hold the line—to not be perceived to be slipping down the slope. To advocate for polygamy during the marriage equality fight may have seemed to confirm the socially conservative narrative, that gay marriage augured a wholesale collapse in traditional values. But times have changed; while work remains to be done, the immediate danger to marriage equality has passed. In 2005, a denial of the right to group marriage stemming from political pragmatism made at least some sense. In 2015, after this ruling, it no longer does.
While important legal and practical questions remain unresolved, with the Supreme Court’s ruling and broad public support, marriage equality is here to stay. Soon, it will be time to turn the attention of social liberalism to the next horizon. Given that many of us have argued, to great effect, that deference to tradition is not a legitimate reason to restrict marriage rights to groups that want them, the next step seems clear. We should turn our efforts towards the legal recognition of marriages between more than two partners. It’s time to legalize polygamy.
***
Conventional arguments against polygamy fall apart with even a little examination. Appeals to traditional marriage, and the notion that child rearing is the only legitimate justification of legal marriage, have now, I hope, been exposed and discarded by all progressive people. What’s left is a series of jerry-rigged arguments that reflect no coherent moral vision of what marriage is for, and which frequently function as criticisms of traditional marriage as well.
Many argue that polygamous marriages are typically sites of abuse, inequality in power and coercion. Some refer to sociological research showing a host of ills that are associated with polygamous family structures. These claims are both true and beside the point. Yes, it’s true that many polygamous marriages come from patriarchal systems, typically employing a “hub and spokes” model where one husband has several wives who are not married to each other. These marriages are often of the husband-as-boss variety, and we have good reason to suspect that such models have higher rates of abuse, both physical and emotional, and coercion. But this is a classic case of blaming a social problem on its trappings rather than on its actual origins.
After all, traditional marriages often foster abuse. Traditional marriages are frequently patriarchal. Traditional marriages often feature ugly gender and power dynamics. Indeed, many would argue that marriage’s origins stem from a desire to formalize patriarchal structures within the family in the first place. We’ve pursued marriage equality at the same time as we’ve pursued more equitable, more feminist heterosexual marriages, out of a conviction that the franchise is worth improving, worth saving. If we’re going to ban marriages because some are sites of sexism and abuse, then we’d have to start with the old fashioned one-husband-and-one-wife model. If polygamy tends to be found within religious traditions that seem alien or regressive to the rest of us, that is a function of the very illegality that should be done away with. Legalize group marriage and you will find its connection with abuse disappears.
Another common argument, and another unsatisfying one, is logistical. In this telling, polygamous marriages would strain the infrastructure of our legal systems of marriage, as they are not designed to handle marriage between more than two people. In particular, the claim is frequently made that the division of property upon divorce or death would be too complicated for polygamous marriages. I find this argument eerily reminiscent of similar efforts to dismiss same-sex marriage on practical grounds. (The forms say husband and wife! What do you want us to do, print new forms?) Logistics, it should go without saying, are insufficient reason to deny human beings human rights.
If current legal structures and precedents aren’t conducive to group marriage, then they will be built in time. The comparison to traditional marriage is again instructive. We have, after all, many decades of case law and legal organization dedicated to marriage, and yet divorce and family courts feature some of the most bitterly contested cases imaginable. Complication and dispute are byproducts of human relationships and human commitment. We could, as a civil society, create a legal expectation that those engaging in a group marriage create binding documents and contracts that clearly delineate questions of inheritance, alimony, and the like. Prenups are already a thing.
Most dispiriting, and least convincing, are those arguments that simply reconstitute the slippery slope arguments that have been used for so long against same sex marriage. “If we allow group marriage,” the thinking seems to go, “why wouldn’t marriage with animals or children come next?” The difference is, of course, consent. In recent years, a progressive and enlightened movement has worked to insist that consent is the measure of all things in sexual and romantic practice: as long as all involved in any particular sexual or romantic relationship are consenting adults, everything is permissible; if any individual does not give free and informed consent, no sexual or romantic engagement can be condoned.
This bedrock principle of mutually-informed consent explains exactly why we must permit polygamy and must oppose bestiality and child marriage. Animals are incapable of voicing consent; children are incapable of understanding what it means to consent. In contrast, consenting adults who all knowingly and willfully decide to enter into a joint marriage contract, free of coercion, should be permitted to do so, according to basic principles of personal liberty. The preeminence of the principle of consent is a just and pragmatic way to approach adult relationships in a world of multivariate and complex human desires.
Progressives have always flattered themselves that time is on their side, that their preferences are in keeping with the arc of history. In the fight for marriage equality, this claim has been made again and again. Many have challenged our politicians and our people to ask themselves whether they can imagine a future in which opposition to marriage equality is seen as a principled stance. I think it’s time to turn the question back on them: given what you know about the advancement of human rights, are you sure your opposition to group marriage won’t sound as anachronistic as opposition to gay marriage sounds to you now? And since we have insisted that there is no legitimate way to oppose gay marriage and respect gay love, how can you oppose group marriage and respect group love?
I suspect that many progressives would recognize, when pushed in this way, that the case against polygamy is incredibly flimsy, almost entirely lacking in rational basis and animated by purely irrational fears and prejudice. What we’re left with is an unsatisfying patchwork of unconvincing arguments and bad ideas, ones embraced for short-term convenience at long-term cost. We must insist that rights cannot be dismissed out of short-term interests of logistics and political pragmatism. The course then, is clear: to look beyond political convenience and conservative intransigence, and begin to make the case for extending legal marriage rights to more loving and committed adults. It’s time.
I can't wait to see the internet battles that ensue as this issue comes more into focus.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-06-29 22:42:08
Quote: A string of churches with predominantly black congregations – from Florida to Tennessee -- has reported fires in the past week, officials say.
The circumstances surrounding the six fires in five states differ in each case, but their occurring in the past eight days has prompted closer scrutiny.
So far only two of the six cases are being investigated as arson, and federal authorities have not launched any official hate crime investigations.
Arson was a notable problem for black churches in the mid-1990s and prompted then-President Bill Clinton to push for the creation of the Church Arson Prevention Act in 1996, though a related U.S. Department of Justice task force was suspended at the end of his second term.
This week's fires come amid a tense time in some Southern cities after a shooting by an alleged racist at a historic black church in Charleston, South Carolina, left nine dead. The result has been a push for the removal of the Confederate flag from several state Capitols amid reignited debates over the region's racial history.
A senior official from the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives said they have special agents, certified fire investigators, looking into the different fires.
"At this time, ATF has not determined the fires are related. We are still determining origin and cause so we cannot say all are arson," the official told ABC News.
The ATF is also reportedly checking the fires against its Bomb Arson Tracking System to see whether there are any commonalities among the fires.
Mark Potok, a senior fellow at the Southern Poverty Law Center in Montgomery, Alabama, a hate group-monitoring organization, said only three of the six fires appear to be true cases of arson. And while those three -- in Tennessee, Georgia and North Carolina -- may have been intentionally set, he said he believes it's unlikely they were done in an organized and unified fashion.
"I think it's very unlikely,in terms of a conspiracy," he told ABC News.
"It's entirely possible, perhaps even likely, that some of these churches were attacked because of all that's happened in the past three weeks," Potok said in reference to the debate over the continued use of the Confederate battle flag.
The first fire was reported at the College Hill Seventh Day Adventist Church in Knoxville, Tennessee, on Sunday, June 21. Stacks of hay and soil were placed against the church's metal doors and set on fire, according to ABC affiliate WATE-TV.
"I see this and I think of an intention to try to destroy this entire church," Pastor Cleveland Hobdy III told WATE.
Knoxville Police Department spokesman Darrell DeBusk told WATE that it has been deemed an incident of vandalism and not a hate crime because, in most hate crime cases, the suspect leaves a message or indication of the reason behind the attack and no such mention was found in this case.
The second church was in Georgia two days later, and Macon Bibb County Fire Chief Marvin Riggins told station WMAZ that it was suspicious and is being investigated as an arson.
Fruitland Presbyterian Church in Gibson County, Tennessee, was also set on fire that same day and officials have not released any updates about the investigation, nor did they immediately return ABC News' calls. Fire Chief Bryan Cathey told ABC affiliate WBBJ-TV that there were some questions about whether it was an accidental fire because residents recalled there being several lightning strikes in the area around the time of the fire.
The fourth fire burned down a portion of the Briar Creek Road Baptist Church in east Charlotte, North Carolina, in the early morning hours of June 24, and investigators immediately classified it as arson.
"We completed our work on the scene and determined this was intentionally set," Charlotte Fire Department senior investigator David Williams told The Associated Press of the $250,000 worth of damage.
The investigations into the final two churches that reported fires Friday June 26 are still underway and their respective cause has not yet been determined. Both the state law enforcement agency and the FBI are looking into the Glover Grove Missionary Baptist Church fire in Warrenville, South Carolina, according to the AP.
Further south, the state fire agency is also looking into the blaze at Greater Miracle Temple in Tallahassee, Florida, that caused an estimated $700,000 in damage early Friday morning, according to the Tallahassee Democrat.
No injuries were reported at any of the fires. String of Fires at 6 Predominantly Black Churches Scrutinized
By Enuyasha 2015-06-29 23:03:13
Honestly, the only reason Polygamy isnt legal is because its a legal nightmare in a handbasket. How do you do divorce in 50/50 states? Do each of the sister wives get half of the other wives half?
How does one operate marriage taxes? Would you exclude the other wives and just go off taxes of just a single marriage?
The list goes on and on and on...
Now, the other arguments for the slippery slope are pedophilia and bestiality will soon be legal: Which is hilarious since like, those are socially unacceptable on so many more levels than just religious ones.
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By Phoenix.Amandarius 2015-06-29 23:11:31
Need more infrastructure spending.
Like maybe a big pipeline?
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-06-29 23:25:56
Phoenix.Amandarius said: »Need more infrastructure spending.
Like maybe a big pipeline?
Yeah, a few thousand short term jobs to help Canadian energy companies sell oil to China. That'll fix those crumbling bridges and millions out of work.
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By Phoenix.Amandarius 2015-06-29 23:31:53
All infrastructure jobs are short term jobs.
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-06-29 23:47:34
Phoenix.Amandarius said: »All infrastructure jobs are short term jobs.
Not even remotely true, unless you're talking ONLY about construction. Even then, why not construct things that contribute to OUR interests rather than some multi-national energy conglomerate?
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By Phoenix.Amandarius 2015-06-30 00:16:39
More Pipeline boogeyman lies. At least we are over the environmental impact lies. The pipeline is a good thing for America and American companies; American companies with American workers that all pay American taxes.
And it's not a choice between the pipeline and other infrastructure projects, but this is in fact a very good infrastructure project that is irrationally rejected outright by lunatics on the left.
Infrastructure jobs are short term.
Crumbling bridges? Yep short term.
If you are worried about millions of people out of work then you should request that your President not negotiate like a complete pussy when he is doing trade deals.
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-06-30 00:18:50
I miss our little talks. I haven't laughed this hard in weeks.
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By Phoenix.Amandarius 2015-06-30 00:28:48
Taunts by your third post. Giving up already? That's the lightweight I remember. Good night. I am 100% certain I know where to find you tomorrow if I am bored again.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-06-30 00:49:35
Forget the U.S.S.A. it's now the U.S.S.F., United Socialist States of Feels.
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Bahamut.Ravael
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-06-30 00:51:18
Honestly, the only reason Polygamy isnt legal is because its a legal nightmare in a handbasket. How do you do divorce in 50/50 states? Do each of the sister wives get half of the other wives half?
How does one operate marriage taxes? Would you exclude the other wives and just go off taxes of just a single marriage?
The list goes on and on and on...
Now, the other arguments for the slippery slope are pedophilia and bestiality will soon be legal: Which is hilarious since like, those are socially unacceptable on so many more levels than just religious ones.
As far as polygamy goes, part of the "slippery slope" argument is that human rights trump logistics. Quoting Fonewear's article,
Quote: Another common argument, and another unsatisfying one, is logistical. In this telling, polygamous marriages would strain the infrastructure of our legal systems of marriage, as they are not designed to handle marriage between more than two people. In particular, the claim is frequently made that the division of property upon divorce or death would be too complicated for polygamous marriages. I find this argument eerily reminiscent of similar efforts to dismiss same-sex marriage on practical grounds. (The forms say husband and wife! What do you want us to do, print new forms?) Logistics, it should go without saying, are insufficient reason to deny human beings human rights.
If current legal structures and precedents aren’t conducive to group marriage, then they will be built in time. The comparison to traditional marriage is again instructive. We have, after all, many decades of case law and legal organization dedicated to marriage, and yet divorce and family courts feature some of the most bitterly contested cases imaginable. Complication and dispute are byproducts of human relationships and human commitment. We could, as a civil society, create a legal expectation that those engaging in a group marriage create binding documents and contracts that clearly delineate questions of inheritance, alimony, and the like. Prenups are already a thing.
VIP
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2015-06-30 01:02:18
I can't see a way to guarantee protections for parties involved in that kind of union, though I can't say I have a personal objection to it. I don't see how you could argue that polygamy is a basic human right, but I guess lots of people probably said that about same-sex marriage, interracial marriage, and consensual marriage respectively.
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Ragnarok.Zeig
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1615
By Ragnarok.Zeig 2015-06-30 01:32:11
Another aid ship to the blockaded Gaza Strip intercepted by the IDF:
Quote: A Swedish ship bound for the Gaza Strip carrying 18 pro-Palestinian activists and humanitarian aid was seized by Israeli forces early Monday morning.
Those on board the MV Marianne, part of Freedom Flotilla III — which departed from Greece on Saturday to protest and break through the maritime blockade near the Gaza Strip — included politicians, such as a former president of Tunisia, as well as activists and journalists from around the world.
Israeli military officials boarded the vessel and assumed control of it after the captain refused their requests to change course, according to a statement from the Israel Defense Forces. It adds the interception was "uneventful" and did not require the use of force.
Freedom Flotilla organizers who were not on the ship tweeted Monday afternoon that the MV Marianne had arrived at Ashdod Port, and that all sailors were in "good health," although they claim one of them was tasered by Israeli authorities.
"Once again, the Israeli government and its military has acted like state pirates and attacked our boat in international waters," Petros Stergiou, a spokesperson for the flotilla, told Al Jazeera. Stergiou said the group lost contact with the ship around 2 am local time Monday as three military vessels advanced toward it.
Quote: Much to Israel's dismay, many aid groups have tried to reach the Gaza strip by sea to deliver supplies and protest the Israeli blockade and embargo on supplies to Gaza, which activists say violates international human rights.
Israel imposed the blockade after Hamas gained more power from the Palestinian Authority in 2007.
The Freedom Flotilla III's latest attempt to break the blockade prompted Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office to release an indignant letter to those on board.
"Welcome to Israel," it reads. "You seem to have gotten lost. Perhaps you meant to sail to a place not far from here — Syria, where Assad's army is slaughtering its people every day, and is supported by the murderous Iranian regime...you are welcome to transfer any humanitarian supplies for the Gaza Strip through Israel." He reportedly gave copies of the letter to military officials so they could distribute them by hand to those on board.
In 2010, Israeli troops stormed the Mavi Marmara, a Turkish ship which was part of the Gaza Freedom Flotilla, and opened fire on the passengers on deck, killing nine of them. Hundreds of other passengers were arrested.
The government of Israel apologized in 2013 for its "operational mistakes" during that raid, and a compensation deal between Israel and Turkey is still in the works.
Source
Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-06-30 03:46:20
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By fonewear 2015-06-30 06:10:09
Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-06-30 06:16:31
Infertile people tend to want kids even more, sometimes going to great lengths.
By fonewear 2015-06-30 06:19:11
Infertile people tend to want kids even more, sometimes going to great lengths.
Like paying someone like me to impregnate their wife/girlfriend ?
I'd do it for free just to have a story to tell!
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Valefor.Sehachan
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-06-30 06:54:28
That's a completely unsubstantiated claim.
It's neither more, nor less than fertile people wanting them, it's just that having to use different means they stand out, so to speak.
Also not wanting them is not a sign of intelligence, it's a lifechoice and nothing more.
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By Jetackuu 2015-06-30 07:06:28
Another aid ship to the blockaded Gaza Strip intercepted by the IDF: good
By Jetackuu 2015-06-30 07:07:25
Phoenix.Amandarius said: »Need more infrastructure spending.
Like maybe a big pipeline? I meant ones that make sense, and wouldn't destroy the environment. But good try, good try.
Phoenix.Amandarius said: »All infrastructure jobs are short term jobs.
Not even remotely true, even if they are, it still stimulates the economy.
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By Ramyrez 2015-06-30 07:17:56
The EPA ruling is a temporary setback at best, the Court reaffirmed the EPA's right to regulate mercury, and considering the order was issued 3 years ago and many factories have already complied or begun to comply, I don't even know why the Court heard the case. All the EPA has to do is re-issue the exact same rule.
It's the precedent that worries me.
By Ramyrez 2015-06-30 07:20:00
The gay marriage attention did draw from the passing of the fast track for the TPP. But, nobody seems to give a crap about jobs or the economy, despite it being their key concern when voting for the next president to screw them on both. Two countries about to go bankrupt, Greece and Puerto Rico, manufacturing industry in recession, Turkey fighting Kurds in Syria while $500 million spent training less than 100 'moderate rebels', TPP - allowing corporation to bypass any nation's law and sue any government, there's a few more things I've temporary forgotten, but nope let's talk about gay marriage.
The people deserve what they get for not paying any attention and doing nothing.
Forget putting fluoride in the water, they need to put ADD drugs in the water. At least it's better than mercury.
I agree, but here's the thing.
How much of this stuff can the average American really connect to or feel like they can influence?
With social issues at least they're seeing results and/or something they (think) they can rally against successfully.
A distraction from bigger issues? For sure.
But that's the way it always is.
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