|
|
Random Politics & Religion #00
 Lakshmi.Flavin
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-03-30 15:49:10
Another false narrative. 24 other states have similar laws (Obama signed one himself when he was a legislator in IL), and there's also a federal law (remember hobby lobby and abortive contraception).
Have you read the law? Can you point out where it says discrimination against gays is allowed? The difference in the law in Illinois is that it ammended that law to not allow businesses to discriminate based on sexual orientation. The governor of Indiana specifically stated that it is not on his agenda to ammend the law in any such way nor would he.
The people in favor of the law specifically state that the main reason for this is so that businesses revolving around weddings do not have to cater to homosexual weddings and also so that people would not have to let a man into a woman's bathroom. It's specifically set up and marketed under those purposes and people have not been all that shy about it.
To be fair there are other laws out there like this already but this one comes at a time when this is a hot button topic and its taking a lot of heat and will continue to do so. It's hurting them a bit as well.
Eh, it's just an opportunity for liberals to rally their base over a false narrative of "Hateful murica is out do get the gays again". There is no text in the law that permits discrimination based on sexual orientation, only one that protects people practicing their religious freedom. If you want to argue that we shouldn't allow people religious freedom, by all means do so, but don't hide behind this BS when you do it.
Exit question, if you're part of a religion that believes homosexuality is wrong, what should you do? Just not go into business?
Before someone comes in an simply replaces sexual orientation with race, could you also give me an example of an active religion that thinks being born black is a sin? The problem within your own post Nausi is that you say that nothing specifically in the bill says descriminate based on sexual orientation but in your next statement you pretty much state that is what the law can be used for. Do you not see that?
Personally I don't really care if people refuse others service for whatever reason unless its something like a utility company. Oh you're gay? No power for you. I also don't understand why you would want to give business to a person that pretty much hates you because of their religion and nothing else.
If your religion tells you to hate a specific group of people for no other reason than they are what they are then I just feel sorry for you. I'd say still go into business but get ready to be bashed or supported by consumers for the choices you make in how you run your business.
Im not quite sure how race became part of this discussion.
Edit: Also, whenever you start a business you start it knowing you're going to be governed by certain laws so you should probably take that into account before you put all that money and work into it.
Why should it be illegal to discriminate against someone? If I own a strip club and intentionally don't hire fat chicks, I am in fact discriminating against them. The only difference between fat chicks and gay people in this case is that the lobby advocating gay people become a special class is more organized than the equivalent lobby for fat people. Probably because the fats just can't seem to respond as quickly / move as fast (rimshot).
I mentioned race as a caveat, cause I know some idiot will say "if your religious practice says you should kill blacks, should you be allowed to freely practice your religion". Apple CEO already beat them to it.
Apple CEO Tim Cook Compares Indiana Law to Jim Crow Laws in Scathing Op-EdLess to loose buying into the narrative than fighting it. They probably think gay people are the only ones who can afford their new watches. Considering Tim Cook is an openly gay CEO, and I believe the only one, that's probably why he's pretty vocal about it.
Likening this to jim crow laws is just making the connection that both are based on discrimination regardless of whehter it's racial or sexual.
You're just ignorant for making the comment about the watches lol.
Besides Nausi you're openly defending the right to discriminate so I don't see what your problem is here. Just stand up for what you believe in and thats using religion to descriminate against a certain class of people and then be done with it.
Ragnarok.Nausi
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6709
By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-03-30 15:49:18
So my business idea to open a fat lesbian strip club isn't a good idea... Fat no, lesbian yes!
[+]
Ragnarok.Nausi
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6709
By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-03-30 15:50:55
Another false narrative. 24 other states have similar laws (Obama signed one himself when he was a legislator in IL), and there's also a federal law (remember hobby lobby and abortive contraception).
Have you read the law? Can you point out where it says discrimination against gays is allowed? The difference in the law in Illinois is that it ammended that law to not allow businesses to discriminate based on sexual orientation. The governor of Indiana specifically stated that it is not on his agenda to ammend the law in any such way nor would he.
The people in favor of the law specifically state that the main reason for this is so that businesses revolving around weddings do not have to cater to homosexual weddings and also so that people would not have to let a man into a woman's bathroom. It's specifically set up and marketed under those purposes and people have not been all that shy about it.
To be fair there are other laws out there like this already but this one comes at a time when this is a hot button topic and its taking a lot of heat and will continue to do so. It's hurting them a bit as well.
Eh, it's just an opportunity for liberals to rally their base over a false narrative of "Hateful murica is out do get the gays again". There is no text in the law that permits discrimination based on sexual orientation, only one that protects people practicing their religious freedom. If you want to argue that we shouldn't allow people religious freedom, by all means do so, but don't hide behind this BS when you do it.
Exit question, if you're part of a religion that believes homosexuality is wrong, what should you do? Just not go into business?
Before someone comes in an simply replaces sexual orientation with race, could you also give me an example of an active religion that thinks being born black is a sin? The problem within your own post Nausi is that you say that nothing specifically in the bill says descriminate based on sexual orientation but in your next statement you pretty much state that is what the law can be used for. Do you not see that?
Personally I don't really care if people refuse others service for whatever reason unless its something like a utility company. Oh you're gay? No power for you. I also don't understand why you would want to give business to a person that pretty much hates you because of their religion and nothing else.
If your religion tells you to hate a specific group of people for no other reason than they are what they are then I just feel sorry for you. I'd say still go into business but get ready to be bashed or supported by consumers for the choices you make in how you run your business.
Im not quite sure how race became part of this discussion.
Edit: Also, whenever you start a business you start it knowing you're going to be governed by certain laws so you should probably take that into account before you put all that money and work into it.
Why should it be illegal to discriminate against someone? If I own a strip club and intentionally don't hire fat chicks, I am in fact discriminating against them. The only difference between fat chicks and gay people in this case is that the lobby advocating gay people become a special class is more organized than the equivalent lobby for fat people. Probably because the fats just can't seem to respond as quickly / move as fast (rimshot).
I mentioned race as a caveat, cause I know some idiot will say "if your religious practice says you should kill blacks, should you be allowed to freely practice your religion". Apple CEO already beat them to it.
Apple CEO Tim Cook Compares Indiana Law to Jim Crow Laws in Scathing Op-EdLess to loose buying into the narrative than fighting it. They probably think gay people are the only ones who can afford their new watches. Considering Tim Cook is an openly gay CEO, and I believe the only one, that's probably why he's pretty vocal about it.
Likening this to jim crow laws is just making the connection that both are based on discrimination regardless of whehter it's racial or sexual.
You're just ignorant for making the comment about the watches lol.
Besides Nausi you're openly defending the right to discriminate so I don't see what your problem is here. Just stand up for what you believe in and thats using religion to descriminate against a certain class of people and then be done with it.
Flavin, the later part was a joke, take a breather will ya.
By fonewear 2015-03-30 15:51:53
I refuse to defend a watch that does the same thing as a phone...
[+]
By fonewear 2015-03-30 15:53:47
You wanna *** about human rights head to Syria !
By fonewear 2015-03-30 15:55:11
The amount of bitching Americans do for how good we have it is pretty amazing.
When the utopia of everyone loving and holding hands happens. Will someone let me know I'd like to see it.
[+]
Lakshmi.Flavin
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-03-30 15:58:06
Why should it be illegal to discriminate against someone? If I own a strip club and intentionally don't hire fat chicks, I am in fact discriminating against them. The only difference between fat chicks and gay people in this case is that the lobby advocating gay people become a special class is more organized than the equivalent lobby for fat people. Probably because the fats just can't seem to respond as quickly / move as fast (rimshot).
I mentioned race as a caveat, cause I know some idiot will say "if your religious practice says you should kill blacks, should you be allowed to freely practice your religion".
No, the difference is that it is legal for a strip club to discriminate against fat chicks or ugly chicks or men because it is the core of their business. If a flower shop didn't want to do gay weddings because their solvency depended on it, that would be a different story. This has nothing to do with a business being given undue financial hardship by doing gay weddings, it's specifically the owners having a religious objection to it.
They are not parallels, and the reason you guys are having so much trouble finding parallels is because there aren't any. There is no pro-gay equivalent to this practice, and gay business owners would never refuse service to straight people because they have a moral objection to their lifestyle.
Do those people even exist? Gays who think strait living is immoral (serious question)?
To your greater point (of lack thereof). Refusing to hire an appropriate number of overweight girls wouldn't make the club go out of business. It's simply tolerated because fat people aren't as super of a class as gay people are. I'm sure there are idiots like that too but you can object to someones lifestyle on more than the facet of their sexual orientation. I always wonder why these bakeries don't discriminate against straight couples that are on their third marriage when, at least in catholic churches, they won't marry you again in the church if you've gotten divorced.
Just because you can't understand the points being made doesn't mean they don't exist. It's like having a guy with no legs applying for a job that requires you to go up stairs all day. You wouldn't have any problem not hiring them and it wouldn't be discrimiation even if that person does belong to a specific class.
By fonewear 2015-03-30 15:59:06
I'm just saying that in other countries gay people have it a lot worse.
Ragnarok.Nausi
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6709
By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-03-30 15:59:11
Why should it be illegal to discriminate against someone? Because basic human rights need to be given to all, or its pointless; this is a fine line to walk. But basic human rights does not cover consideration for every career path in the world.
When you're trying to hire an employee for a job that is based on their charisma or beauty/appeal to your customers, it becomes far more subjective. I can't hire all men at my strip club but that doesn't mean I'm sexist; they just don't fulfil the job requirements etc. What basic human right are you referring to? The right to not be refused service?
By fonewear 2015-03-30 16:02:04
I highly doubt anyone in business even those that don't approve of gay people would turn down money...
Lakshmi.Flavin
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-03-30 16:02:26
The amount of bitching Americans do for how good we have it is pretty amazing.
When the utopia of everyone loving and holding hands happens. Will someone let me know I'd like to see it. Everyone *** about something. Are you gonna be the guy that comes out and says that "at least you're not that [name less fortunate kid here]" lol...
What you might see as someone bitching about something could be seen on the other side as fighting for your civil rights. You could even say those bitching about being forced to serve gay couples or let a trans man or woman into the opposite bathroom see it as fighting for their civil rights to have protected rights as well.
By fonewear 2015-03-30 16:04:36
Still waiting for the utopia...
Lakshmi.Flavin
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-03-30 16:05:07
I'm just saying that in other countries gay people have it a lot worse. and in smoe other countries they have it a lot better.
Just because someone has it worse than you somewhere doesn't mean you should just sit there and take it.
Lakshmi.Flavin
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-03-30 16:05:33
I highly doubt anyone in business even those that don't approve of gay people would turn down money... You would think they would be stupid to do that but it does happen lol.
By fonewear 2015-03-30 16:05:55
I did something I started a twitter thing. Problem solved !
#enddiscrmination
Done!
VIP
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2015-03-30 16:08:29
Do those people even exist? Gays who think strait living is immoral (serious question)?
To your greater point (of lack thereof). Refusing to hire an appropriate number of overweight girls wouldn't make the club go out of business. It's simply tolerated because fat people aren't as super of a class as gay people are.
Fat people aren't a protected class, but that's irrelevant, the solvency of a strip club depends on people coming to see attractive women, it is literally the core of their business. If the dancers aren't attractive, nobody comes to see them, and the club loses money. It's a strictly business decision. It would be on par with a fashion company not hiring aging hairy males to model their women'a swimwear.
Refusing to sell a cake to a gay couple because you have a moral objection to their lifestyle is actually a bad business decision, it's strictly a personal one.
Are there gays opposed to hetero lifestyle? Maybe? But you sure don't see gay activists lobbying for laws specifically to discriminate against straight people, the furthest they go is wanting equal treatment. You're unknowingly arguing against your own position.
By fonewear 2015-03-30 16:09:46
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-03-30 16:10:04
Yesterday it was religious freedom to bar colored people from stuff.
Today it's religious freedom to bar gay people from stuff.
Tomorrow it's religious freedom to bar alien species from stuff.
See you all tomorrow.
By fonewear 2015-03-30 16:10:58
I'm not sure how I'm going to boycott Indiana but damn it I will !
By fonewear 2015-03-30 16:14:18
What does any of this have to do with slaves or murder ?
Lakshmi.Flavin
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-03-30 16:14:35
I'm not sure how I'm going to boycott Indiana but damn it I will ! People have already found a way. There's actually been a lot of backlash over there from a lot of different organizations.
By fonewear 2015-03-30 16:15:44
If I boycotted everything I disagreed with I wouldn't have anywhere to shop...
No Starbucks Wal Mart etc...
VIP
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2015-03-30 16:16:04
You mean yesterday it was religious freedom to murder people
Then religious freedom to enslave people
Now religious freedom to discriminate against people
It's good progress, society is forcing change.
LGB equality is happening, the T is lagging a bit behind, but eventually equality will happen, at least in terms of legal treatment. Millenials are overwhelmingly accepting of the LGBT community, and this issue will essentially die off.
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-03-30 16:17:12
You mean yesterday it was religious freedom to murder people
Then religious freedom to enslave people
Now religious freedom to discriminate against people
It's good progress, society is forcing change.
LGB equality is happening, the T is lagging a bit behind, but eventually equality will happen, at least in terms of legal treatment. Millenials are overwhelmingly accepting of the LGBT community, and this issue will essentially die off.
I live in NYC and I can count how many times ive had an interaction with someone transgender. It's such a rare occurrence most people simply haven't had the exposure.
By fonewear 2015-03-30 16:18:13
NYC I never want to go there again...
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-03-30 16:18:32
If I boycotted everything I disagreed with I wouldn't have anywhere to shop...
No Starbucks Wal Mart etc...
Capitalism wins. Proceed to the reconstitution vat to be turned into preservatives for our new .99 tacos.
[+]
Random Politics & Religion is for topics that aren't thread worthy on their own and do not have their own existing thread.
Rules and Guidelines
Forum Rules and P&R Section Guidelines still apply.
Satire is tolerated.
If your topic covers a story over 6 months old (Watergate, Benghazi, 2012 Election, etc.) post it here.
Discussions on racism, homophobia, transphobia, and the like are allowed, targeted insults based on these will not be tolerated.
Political debates get heated and are meant to be intense, if you take offense to being called or proven wrong, you don't belong here.
If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen; if you prove you can't handle the criticism you bring upon yourself in this thread, you may be removed from it. You are responsible for what you post.
Along those lines, heat is fine, but sustained, clearly personal hostility is not okay. The personal attack rules still apply. Attack positions, not posters. Failure to adhere to this will result in your removal from the thread.
This thread is NOT the Flame Core.
These rules are subject to change and modification where and when needed.
Random Politics & Religion may be mained or demained depending on the activity within at a Moderator's discretion.
With that out of the way, let the debates begin!
/bow
|
|
