Mommy I Want Plus Size Barbie

Were we not talking about little girls? I occasionally lose context, but I'm pretty sure we were talking about little girls.

You know what little girl ballerinas don't have? Access to the sort of data that tells them to go lift heavy things and eat meat. I suppose things may have changed in the past 20 years, but when I was in school (what kind of dancer starts at the university level? you have to audition for that ***), you had the words of your instructor and your peers who were being fed ideas by their mothers. If you were lucky in the early 90s, maybe your instructor said that you needed energy to dance, but that's sure not what I saw. The chances of your mother giving you decent information were practically nil. Celery sticks and rice cakes ahoy!

I could be wrong now that infants are practically born with a smartphone fused to their flesh, but given how many people I've met on the internet still think that saturated fat will cause heart attacks, I am sure that misinformation is alive and well and damaging the soft skulls of children everywhere.

Oh, yeah, my anorexic little brother? He's a professional dancer. I had the good sense to get the hell out. He didn't. Even though he knows all about muscle, especially since men are expected to do lifts, it got hammered into his head that flesh is bad and nothing will change his mind.

Returning to that lovely list of things that help girls' confidence, though, I would strongly question acting and singing. Music in terms of being an instrumentalist is (usually) all about ability, but as a theatre-*** in high school, I watched who actually got the lead roles. For both sexes, it was the pretty folks, not the ones with actual talent, which made for some godawful problems given we mostly did musicals. Shall I launch into the insane things that athletes do in the name of their sport? A friend in high school was a diver and she sweated every ounce. My other brother was a wrestler and wrestlers make ballerinas look sane by comparison when it comes to incredibly dangerous weight management.

In far too many ways is our society built around praising that which is attractive which, in the present-day industrialized world, means being slim. Women have the worse side of it by a fairly wide margin and the neuroses are laid early. What we consider to be sound fitness advice is, for the most part, only a few years old. I wonder what will pass as sound advice in 2030.

What part did you miss when I said we don't have access to the entire journal. Reading is hard.

Secondly, it's a psych study. For Christ's sakes people need to learn how to read scientific studies properly. Especially in psych studies it's impossible to address every variable: genetic variance, family medical history etc...

These studies never will be:UNDER ALL CIRCUMSTANCES AND EVERY VARIABLE WILL RESULT IN THIS CONDITION WITHOUT QUESTION OR DOUBT. If that's what your expecting that's just not going to happen.

I've got a better idea why not provide some credible sources particularly from the APA or psychologists to back up your argument.

I've read everything you've written and fully comprehend it. You're missing a lot of variables, but are claiming that the results of a single study, that you don't have access to in it's entirety, proves your point. It doesn't.

I'm not even debating whether there could be body image consequences from exposing children to a highly idealized version of the female body. The point I'm making is that none of these icons you're so upset about are unrealistic representations of a healthy female body. If a person who is at a healthy weight and physically fit is so deeply disturbed by the image of a person slightly slimmer and more fit than them, then I'd say you have a point. The reason so many people are traumatized by seeing what should be the norm, is because so many people are fat. That's even more apparent when you look at obesity rates in children.

Barbie isn't the issue, fat parents teaching their sedentary lifestyle and poor eating habits to their children is the issue.

I'm still waiting on your credible citation... Oh wait you haven't provided one.

It's not required as I'm not questioning your point. I'm saying you're off in left field playing with dolls when you should be at the plate looking at the ball. Nice try at redirection, though.

But I am questioning your points and requesting credible citations from a national psych association or licensed therapist.

So again where are your credible sources???

Edit:You're quick to criticize a specialized study on Barbie dolls but can't provide a credible citation to back up the contrary. The study does point out that dolls are an issue, if you want to argue that it's solely parents back up that claim with some sources.

Calm down, Org. She danced throughout childhood. You're always so angry, and you seem really wrapped up in your terrible experience. So much so that you're shoveling it on us. Stop freaking the *** out!

You must be older. Leila was born in '86 and I was born in '84.

I have NEVER *** heard of a studio that prohibits Pre-K and elementary school girls from eating. You must have gone to some conservatory or something.

We apologize that you had a ***time of it.

I didn't criticize the study, I said it made no mention of the weight of any of it's participants. That seems like a reasonable thing for a study like that to include, among other things.

You want a credible source from a national psych association stating what exactly? A licensed therapist saying that I'm not arguing with you? Do you have some kind of ingrained hatred for Barbie because you never got one for your birthday?

Where is your credible source from an astrophysicist showing that angler fish aren't allergic to cheese?

Personal attacks instead of providing credible sources. Lovely.

Edit: I have no hatred of Barbie minus her unrealistic depiction of women. But for anyone to argue that she has absolutely no effect on children's/society's, depiction of beauty is naive.

a.) If you must abbreviate my handle, please use Ono or Onor. Org is... a really weird synthesis of the letters.

b.) I'm a lot less freaked out than you imagine. What I am, however, is irked at being dismissed. I'm relating not only my experience but that of many others. You think Black Swan was some arbitrary fantasy?

I'm well aware that not all schools and companies are like that. I'll have the misfortune of working with the largest ballet company in my city in the coming months and perhaps they'll turn out to be sane for once (incidentally, I call it misfortune because they're going to be upstaging the headlining chorus of which I am a part). There is at least one dance company that features fat, hairy guys as its sole members. That kind of group exists in protest of exactly the attitudes I'm trying to discuss, though, the ones that Savael is so adept at parroting.

It was just a school, but it was run by a Chinese-American woman. That whole "Tiger Mom" thing is not an isolated phenomenon.

It's good that you have had a better experience with the art of dance. I wouldn't have studied it as a male living in a small town without having some passion for it. But every media portrayal of ballet dancers in particular depicts a rather harsh standard and I am echoing that I have seen it first hand. Dismissing it because it doesn't jive with your experience is disrepectful at best. It's as bad as trying to hand-wave away the effects of Barbie on little girls or WWE on little boys. Our society goes a long distance towards using the outlying 1% as its demonstrative models and it makes us insane in a way that was simply not possible prior to the rise of mass media.

I'd sort of like to get a time machine and go back to ancient Greece and ancient Rome. In both places, nudity was fairly common, so one would be exposed to a wide array of normal human bodies. In art, though, the Greeks habitually de-emphasized the male genitals (in contrast to how modern pornography is dominated by the top 1% of penis-owners). Rome, on the other hand, tended towards the sorts of phalluses we see more commonly in pornographic media today, if not grossly distended monstrosities like the god Priapus. I would be really interested to know if Greek men were consequently less insecure.

Then again, most supermodels have no breasts to speak of unless they're made out of plastic, but women are constantly bemoaning that their mammaries aren't engorged enough. There's probably too many factors at work and "insecure" is the default setting for human beings in a social setting.

Insecure is the default setting for any social animal. It is a physiological response. Competition is a core part of man's evolution, it's what drove us to become the creatures we are.

Okay. I apologize.


Noted. I was a little astounded by someone being so offended and hostile about the mere suggestion of dance as an worthwhile, fulfilling activity when I had a good experience. Then, when Leila chimed in about her good experience it was met with the same.


Good to hear. We're not dismissing you, but since you brought up 'Black Swan', I thought you might be using that movie as a basis for your "experience", seeing as though yours was vastly different from the one that me, Leila, and Jassik (via his gal-pal) had. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt though. Because that movie is NOT reflective of many girls' experiences with dance, so I went with the assumption that you must have been at a prima/o conservatory.


Thank you for understanding. That is a fantastic accomplishment, and requires quite a lot of determination to achieve.


No girl on here gives a crap about what Savael has to say. Take consolation in that. It doesn't matter if they're white, black, brown, yellow, green, or pink with purple polka-dots. It doesn't matter if they're an A cup or a D cup. It doesn't matter if they're 100 pounds or 300 pounds. I'm willing to bet gals' eyes IRL glaze over whenever he prattles on just the same as the ones on here who had the misfortune of reading his BS. I'm positive many guys on here think he's full of it too.


Just as disrespectful as the assumption that every girl who dances is anorexic or bulimic, not naturally built for it? Yes, thank you. Both Leila and I have heard that many times, by other girls (In my case, a shotputters and softball players, see the difference there? You know, the difference in body type based on genetics, sports, or a combination of both. Perspective.). She and I have discussed this before.


I didn't really want to get into it, but breast augmentation seems like self-mutilation to solve a minimal problem. Bad investment monetarily, and bad investment and short-sighted one if you end up having kids, but whatever...

Also,


Going to bed. Good night.

If you want a decent paper that's open for you to view for free there is one directly in opposition ito yours, Bacon: The Effects of Playing with Thin Dolls on Body Image and Food Intake in Young Girls. Some highlights if you're tl;dr:





Here's what I take from it: playing with a doll for 10 minutes doesn't really tell me much, although I guess thought process was probably that if the girl just came fresh off playing with a doll the immediate reaction is better than knowing nothing. The reaction to the Emme doll is pretty interesting, it means that even if we can't argue that there's a psychological effect of the dolls directly on self-image for children, that doll posted in OP might make kids eat more, which is bad, hah. That might mean the plussize Barbie is actually more harmful to children, but who knows.

These are tangentially related articles, they examine media exposure in general (this is a far more popular area of study, not a lot of people look at dolls specifically) and seem to indicate that there's a magical age (6, this is cited in several studies) where children start to notice their own self-image more, so it turns out the really small children playing with Barbies arn't the one you should be worried about, it's children 6+ and teenagers/young adults, what a surprise.

Am I too fat to be a princess? Examining the effects of popular children's media on young girls' body image

More reading hurr

Kincard,

That age your talking about is right when she learns she can shine her eyes up, act all girly and get males to do stuff for her, mostly her father. Typically around 5~8.

I've dealt with many dancers throughout highschool and my experience is in many cases(not all)very close to what Onorgul says. If you never had pressure as a dancer you were really lucky I think, ballet raises some psychotic people.

I think you may have misunderstood what I wrote or I did not convey what I meant properly: I think dance is a great thing, but it has a reputation for having a culture of misery attached to it. If someone can study without being jerked around by the insanity, that's great, but I meant to point out that it is a gamble at best to try to raise a well-adjusted girl who is learning ballet (it is impossible to raise a well-adjusted boy into ballet in this ridiculous country). Most of the damage is done by the other dancers, too.

For what it's worth, I mentioned that I'm a singer with a men's chorus these days. I was very nervous about joining because I have long since burned up all my patience for the drama, cattiness, and shallow vapidity that plague the performing arts. I got lucky in that this chorus, unlike many I've heard about, is cohesive and support each other, not unlike your university experience. I've seen it go the other way in other venues, though, and I am perpetually amazed that companies continue to exist with the burnout they cause.

Also, and finally, I hate ballet. I much prefer modern dance which, among many other things, has far saner approaches to health, fitness, and cohesion. If I was good enough for it, I'd have loved to study with the Alvin Ailey company, but I was just an average dancer. I could have been better, but being on the receiving end of hardcore sexism is a major demotivator, as you may be aware.

If I'm doing the provoking, the line is drawn pretty early.

If they're the ones starting ***with me, there is no line. At this point my aim is to offend. If it's your sexuality, weight, bad haircut, something you're embarrassed about (such as getting shot down in front of a lot of people, which I have used before), or your dead mother that hits the spot, that's the spot I'm hitting.

I was in choir for the majority of my school life, started since age 5. Most of the times the atmosphere I was in was very welcoming and we tried to work as a team, but of course you always had those people that thought the class was an "easy A", so they decided to join and do minimal work. I admit, I helped push those people out, but when we went to one competition and failed miserably because of said people, we had enough.

I didn't do it because I was "catty and wanted to get ahead", I did it because I didn't want my team to suffer like they did. That humiliation was awful for everyone, and the people that didn't try didn't care. Sometimes the reasons seem selfish, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

Then they cut the music program when I was a senior, and have never cared to do anything musical since.

Also had a girl hate me because there was something that the whole class auditioned for and I got in and she didn't. So meh.

oh noes, Leila's my age...

Poor Leila

you little whippersnappers!

Jeez, I might as well be a typing fetus born in '89. XD

Born before the Berlin Wall fell and made it just in time to lump myself in with the 80s. >_>

Sparth: it's ok, you're one of the cool ones.

At least you're not one of those dirty 70's kids.

I call "Fat Barbie Girl" parody music video

says mr. generation x...

I was born in 87', still can't believe that I'm older than you. D:

Damn kids, GET OFF MY LAWN.

It's ok, I'll be sure to hold all of your urns at the wakes!

I demand that my ashes be mixed with the after party's drinks.

That way, I'm inside of everyone, always.